Velodyne (LiDAR) loses its CEO

[mark95476]

Velodyne Lidar Discloses CEO Exit, Affirms FY21 Outlook

Velodyne Lidar, Inc (NASDAQ: VLDR) CEO Dr. Anand Gopalan has informed the Board regarding his departure as the CEO and director, effective July 30. The company did not disclose any reason for the departure. The Board created an Office of the Chief Executive (OCE), comprising COO Jim Barnhart...

finance.yahoo.com

I remember when autonomous/self driving was really, really hot and Lidar was absolutely necessary, maybe even multiple per vehicle. They cost tens of thousands each back then just for the sensor. They were so expensive that it kicked-off all sorts of start-ups and I think Google/Waymo went off and built their own.

I didn't realize how miniscle revenues were. Maybe that's just Velodyne, though.

• Velodyne's previously disclosed 2021 revenue guidance between $77 million and $94 million versus an analyst consensus of $93.76 million remains unchanged. The business outlook also remains unchanged.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Velodyne Lidar Discloses CEO Exit, Affirms FY21 Outlook

Velodyne Lidar, Inc (NASDAQ: VLDR) CEO Dr. Anand Gopalan has informed the Board regarding his departure as the CEO and director, effective July 30. The company did not disclose any reason for the departure. The Board created an Office of the Chief Executive (OCE), comprising COO Jim Barnhart...

finance.yahoo.com

I remember when autonomous/self driving was really, really hot and Lidar was absolutely necessary, maybe even multiple per vehicle. They cost tens of thousands each back then just for the sensor. They were so expensive that it kicked-off all sorts of start-ups and I think Google/Waymo went off and built their own.

I didn't realize how miniscle revenues were. Maybe that's just Velodyne, though.

• Velodyne's previously disclosed 2021 revenue guidance between $77 million and $94 million versus an analyst consensus of $93.76 million remains unchanged. The business outlook also remains unchanged.

There aren't very may consumer cars with LIDAR yet. Mercedes uses Velodyne but it's only $500 and only on the super expensive S-class. If they ever get their L3 system working it should trickle down to cheaper models.
I think ADAS (i.e L2) will all go to camera only.

 

[diplomat33]

Velodyne Lidar Discloses CEO Exit, Affirms FY21 Outlook

Velodyne Lidar, Inc (NASDAQ: VLDR) CEO Dr. Anand Gopalan has informed the Board regarding his departure as the CEO and director, effective July 30. The company did not disclose any reason for the departure. The Board created an Office of the Chief Executive (OCE), comprising COO Jim Barnhart...

finance.yahoo.com

I remember when autonomous/self driving was really, really hot and Lidar was absolutely necessary, maybe even multiple per vehicle. They cost tens of thousands each back then just for the sensor. They were so expensive that it kicked-off all sorts of start-ups and I think Google/Waymo went off and built their own.

I didn't realize how miniscle revenues were. Maybe that's just Velodyne, though.

• Velodyne's previously disclosed 2021 revenue guidance between $77 million and $94 million versus an analyst consensus of $93.76 million remains unchanged. The business outlook also remains unchanged.

Some argue that the lidar start-ups got the timing wrong. They thought autonomous cars would be everywhere by now so they expected really high demand for their product. But as autonomous driving took longer than expected and AV companies like Waymo decided to build their lidar in-house, that high demand just never materialized. You are not going to be profitable with just providing lidar in small numbers to a few start-up AV companies. Now, as more consumer cars are adding front lidar to their ADAS, the demand for lidar could grow again. There could be a potential business model in providing cheaper, mass produced lidar for ADAS on consumer cars. And when L4 robotaxis do scale up, they will use lidar, so there could be good demand there too in a few years.

 

[mark95476]

Some of those vehicles that had Lidar (Audi E-tron) disabled it and then didn't include them in newer models.

There aren't very may consumer cars with LIDAR yet. Mercedes uses Velodyne but it's only $500 and only on the super expensive S-class. If they ever get their L3 system working it should trickle down to cheaper models.
I think ADAS (i.e L2) will all go to camera only.

We'll see if and how the Lidar gold-rush pans out. I believe Google/Waymo has offered to sell their Lidar to other manufacturers to recoup some of their development costs.

Some argue that the lidar start-ups got the timing wrong. They thought autonomous cars would be everywhere by now so they expected really high demand for their product. But as autonomous driving took longer than expected and AV companies like Waymo decided to build their lidar in-house, that high demand just never materialized. You are not going to be profitable with just providing lidar in small numbers to a few start-up AV companies. Now, as more consumer cars are adding front lidar to their ADAS, the demand for lidar could grow again. There could be a potential business model in providing cheaper, mass produced lidar for ADAS on consumer cars. And when L4 robotaxis do scale up, they will use lidar, so there could be good demand there too in a few years.

 

[rxlawdude]

And when L4 robotaxis do scale up, they will use lidar, so there could be good demand there too in a few years.

If you're talking Tesla robotaxis, please cite your source. And your assertion that as a general rule L4 taxis will all use lidar, well, let's just say that's your speculation.

 

[diplomat33]

If you're talking Tesla robots taxis, please cite your source. And your assertion that as a general rule L4 taxis will all use lidar, well, let's just say that's your speculation.

No, I am not talking about Tesla robotaxis. Elon has made it very clear that Tesla is not interested in lidar. But Tesla has not deployed any L4 robotaxis yet so it is a moot point.

Yes, I am asserting that as a general rule, L4 robotaxis that are not Tesla, will use lidar. No, it is not speculation. Right now, every single L4 robotaxi deployed on public roads today use lidar. Tesla has no L4 robotaxis. Furthermore, future robotaxis that have been announced by major AV companies will also use lidar. For example, the Cruise Origin robotaxi will use lidar. The Zoox robotaxi will use lidar. Mobileye has said that their L4 robotaxi will use lidar. Ford announced L4 robotaxis, powered by Argo, that will be deployed in Miami later this year. It will use lidar. I have not heard of any of the major AV companies announcing that they plan to remove lidar any time soon from their L4 robotaxis. In fact, ask any major AV company and they all say that they plan to keep lidar on their L4 robotaxis. So based on all that evidence, I think it is logical to conclude that as a general rule L4 robotaxis, that are not Tesla, will use lidar.

 

[Tam]

...demand...

It's picking up but still very slowly:

China: Q3 2021 Xpeng XPILOT 3.5 with 2 lidars: post-susidized prices ranges $24,737.17 - $35,559.68 (RMB160,000 – 230,000) depending on trims: Only 2 out of 6 trims would have LIDARs

2022 Mercedes-Benz EQS with 130 MPH Autosteer

 

[diplomat33]

It's picking up but still very slowly:

China: Q3 2021 Xpeng XPILOT 3.5 with 2 lidars: post-susidized prices ranges $24,737.17 - $35,559.68 (RMB160,000 – 230,000) depending on trims: Only 2 out of 6 trims would have LIDARs

2022 Mercedes-Benz EQS with 130 MPH Autosteer

Yes, we are seeing slow but increasing demand for lidar on consumer cars. If the trend continues, the demand for lidar on consumer cars should continue to increase.

 

[rxlawdude]

Yes, we are seeing slow but increasing demand for lidar on consumer cars. If the trend continues, the demand for lidar on consumer cars should continue to increase.

Wait. Do you mean lidar on just consumer autonomous or semi-autonomous cars, or is your claim this will be standard on every new car?

 

[diplomat33]

Wait. Do you mean lidar on just consumer autonomous or semi-autonomous cars, or is your claim this will be standard on every new car?

I should have been more specific. So far, we are seeing lidar on several semi-autonomous consumer cars. It is possible that lidar could become standard on all semi-autonomous cars at some point since semi-autonomous tech is become more common. There are no autonomous consumer cars yet on the market so we don't know. But considering that AV companies are using lidar for their autonomous vehicles, it would make sense that future autonomous consumer cars, when they become available, would also use lidar (except Tesla of course).

 

[rxlawdude]

I should have been more specific. So far, we are seeing lidar on several semi-autonomous consumer cars. It is possible that lidar could become standard on all semi-autonomous cars at some point. There are no autonomous consumer cars yet on the market so we don't know. But considering that AV companies are using lidar for their autonomous vehicles, it would make sense that future autonomous consumer cars, when they become available, would also use lidar (except Tesla of course).

And for this, the race to Nirvana shall continue.

 

[Daniel in SD]

There are no autonomous consumer cars yet on the market so we don't know.

Honda is leasing 100 L3 cars with LIDAR in Japan. Baby steps!
All the promised L3 systems from other manufacturers use LIDAR.
However my prediction is that most manufacturers will go vision only for driver assistance systems.

 

[rxlawdude]

Honda is leasing 100 L3 cars with LIDAR in Japan. Baby steps!
All the promised L3 systems from other manufacturers use LIDAR.
However my prediction is that most manufacturers will go vision only for driver assistance systems.

Yes, and I think many would agree that adding front and rear 90 degree cameras in both directions on front (maybe even rear?) bumpers would be needed to reasonably get to L3+ or L4. The rear to address what many whine about: rear cross traffic alerting. (To be honest, the existing rear camera's wide angle plus a modicum of common sense use of windows makes this feature somewhat unnecessary IMO. With true L4, that "common sense" element goes away, so it's more compelling when we get to that point.)

 

[diplomat33]

Honda is leasing 100 L3 cars with LIDAR in Japan. Baby steps!
All the promised L3 systems from other manufacturers use LIDAR.

Technically I think L3 would be considered semi-autonomous, not autonomous, since it requires a human in the driver seat.

However my prediction is that most manufacturers will go vision only for driver assistance systems.

I would agree. Vision-only is good enough for L2 ADAS. However, Huawei and Velodyne are working on ADAS grade lidar that is less than $100 a piece and L2 ADAS would only need 1 front lidar. At that price, manufacturers could still add a front lidar to their L2 ADAS for the added redundancy. At that price why not?

Here is an article from 2020 that argues that at that price, manufacturers would be silly not to include lidar anyway:

Now, LiDAR tech is getting so cheap it’s making it stupid not to include the sensor tech.

Chinese electric component manufacturer Huawei says that it’s working on a significantly cheaper LiDAR sensor, which could cost less than $100, Autoevolution reports.

Huawei isn’t the only company to aim for the sub-$100 price bracket. Specialist LiDAR developers Velodyne said earlier this year that it also has a $100 sensor arrangement ready for market.

Where system robustness could be key to the success of autonomous vehicles and with LiDAR becoming so cheap it begs the question to companies like Tesla, “Why not just use it anyway?”

LiDAR is getting so cheap itâd be madness not to use it in self-driving cars

LiDAR sensors are getting so cheap that it makes it hard to understand why any self-driving car company wouldn't bother using them in its vehicles.

thenextweb.com

 

[rxlawdude]

Technically I think L3 would be considered semi-autonomous, not autonomous, since it requires a human in the driver seat.



I would agree. Vision-only is good enough for L2 ADAS. However, Huawei and Velodyne are working on ADAS grade lidar that is less than $100 a piece and L2 ADAS would only need 1 front lidar. At that price, manufacturers could still add a front lidar to their L2 ADAS for the added redundancy. At that price why not?

Here is an article from 2020 that argues that at that price, manufacturers would be silly not to include lidar anyway:

LiDAR is getting so cheap itâd be madness not to use it in self-driving cars

LiDAR sensors are getting so cheap that it makes it hard to understand why any self-driving car company wouldn't bother using them in its vehicles.

thenextweb.com

"Chinese electric component manufacturer Huawei says that it’s working on a significantly cheaper LiDAR sensor..."

The elephant in the room: That company's considered a national security threat in the US. Biden extended the ban using a different method to accomplish the same thing Trump did: discouraging US companies from dealing with Huawei. At least their telecom products. Not sure if this ban would apply, as it would need FCC approval for RF emissions.

 

[diplomat33]

"Chinese electric component manufacturer Huawei says that it’s working on a significantly cheaper LiDAR sensor..."

The elephant in the room: That company's considered a national security threat in the US. Biden extended the ban using a different method to accomplish the same thing Trump did: discouraging US companies from dealing with Huawei. At least their telecom products. Not sure if this ban would apply, as it would need FCC approval for RF emissions.

You are deflecting. Velodyne is not a Chinese company and they are also working on cheap lidar for ADAS.

 

[rxlawdude]

You are deflecting. Velodyne is not a Chinese company and they are also working on cheap lidar for ADAS.

No, just saying one of the cited companies indeed is on the USA's S-list.

 

[diplomat33]

No, just saying one of the cited companies indeed is on the USA's S-list.

Sure. I am just pointing that it does not really change anything. Even if Huawei's cheap lidar were to get banned from the US, US automakers could get cheap lidar from Velodyne instead.

 

[Tam]

And for this, the race to Nirvana shall continue.

Since this thread speculates that the CEO left due to poor demands, so what are factors that would pick up the demands: To pick up demands, LIDARs should be available to anyone who wants to use it and not just a specific niche of Robotaxis.

On the other hand, manufacturers from China are usually cheaper than our domestic ones in the US so how does this factor in making LIDAR cheap to kick off the demands?

 

[JHCCAZ]

I'm not seeing anyone discuss Luminar, who has concentrated on low-cost yet sensibly high-resolution Lidar from their inception. The first production use will be in next year's Volvo XC90, with a very nicely integrated forward-looking Lidar at the windshield roofline.