Washing Car w/Ceramic Coating

[dandrewk]

While you can use non-coating compatible products like polymer sealants/drying aids/quick detailers, "Wash and Wax" products or spray waxes and not 'hurt' the coating, they generally won't help in any way and may be a step backwards given a coatings inherent beneficial properties.

What you're essentially doing is covering up your coating with lesser performing products. You spent all the time and money on the coating, why blanket it in something that inhibits it from doing its job properly?

Maintaining a coated car is really no different than maintaining a wax or sealant car, you're just grabbing different bottles (products)...and doing it less often.

Your paint surface will behave based upon what is on top if it; if the last thing you used on top of it is a wax, sealant or polymer product (be it a dedicated product or some 'enhancement' to shampoo or rinseless wash) your essentially missing out on having your best-performing protection facing the world.

For our coated cars I have 2 bottles: a pure shampoo & a coating-friendly (usually contains SiO2) maintenance product...and that's about it. And as long as I don't 'pollute' that with a lesser product, I continue to wash far less than when I had waxes or sealants in my paint.

As with anything, YMMV.

If I may ask, how do you feel about using ONR diluted 16:1 for everyday touchup cleaning?

 

[bigroo42]

What about fast/spot cleaning? I realize products line ONR make it fast, but still requires a bucket of water. I talking about daily touchups for road dust and/or dirty spray on the rear quarter panel.

I'm looking for a spray on to the car and microfiber towel, a fast wipe followed by drying with a clean, dry towel. I've seen many recommendations about Aero Cosmetics products. Are these good for cars with Ceramic Pro coatings? Any others?

Chemical guys has a great 'quick detailer' spray that I was very impressed with. It came in a starter kit I bought from them and it will be the only thing (besides honeydew soap) that I re buy from them.

Professionally applied 5 yr ceramic coating here. Although I neglected to check with my guy to see if the quick detail spray is safe for my coating.

 

[TyH2009]

Chemical guys has a great 'quick detailer' spray that I was very impressed with. It came in a starter kit I bought from them and it will be the only thing (besides honeydew soap) that I re buy from them.

Professionally applied 5 yr ceramic coating here. Although I neglected to check with my guy to see if the quick detail spray is safe for my coating.

If something like a quick detail spray isn't "safe" for a coating, how is any kind of road chemical, bird poop, etc. supposed to be repelled?

I don't get it, if these 3 year, 5 year, lifetime etc. coatings can't handle a wax, sealant, QD spray, how can they repel the things they're actually SUPPOSED to repel?

 

[N54TT]

If something like a quick detail spray isn't "safe" for a coating, how is any kind of road chemical, bird poop, etc. supposed to be repelled?

I don't get it, if these 3 year, 5 year, lifetime etc. coatings can't handle a wax, sealant, QD spray, how can they repel the things they're actually SUPPOSED to repel?

This all stems from the old age thought that what strips your car of road grim, dirt, contaminants....also strips whatever LSP you have. Ceramic is tougher than traditional waxes and sealants...and there’s a lot of hoopla about what’s safe for ceramic. Gotta make money somehow. But that being said....always best to use a less harsh, ph balanced soap for routine washes...to maximize the longevity of whatever ceramic coating was applied.

 

[JasontheBeaver]

If I may ask, how do you feel about using ONR diluted 16:1 for everyday touchup cleaning?

For ONR just use the same 255:1 ratio for everything (except when using it for clay lube, then go with the recommended 63:1 ratio)
16:1 is way too concentrated and wasteful.

 

[JasontheBeaver]

If something like a quick detail spray isn't "safe" for a coating, how is any kind of road chemical, bird poop, etc. supposed to be repelled?

I don't get it, if these 3 year, 5 year, lifetime etc. coatings can't handle a wax, sealant, QD spray, how can they repel the things they're actually SUPPOSED to repel?

Bingo!
This misconception about what's safe for ceramic coatings stems mostly from detail product manufacturers and retailers who profit from selling you stuff. Make a really cool product review video with high production value, post it on TMC, and the misconception spreads like wildfire.

 

[TyH2009]

Bingo!
This misconception about what's safe for ceramic coatings stems mostly from detail product manufacturers and retailers who profit from selling you stuff. Make a really cool product review video with high production value, post it on TMC, and the misconception spreads like wildfire.

I can understand not using something harsh and that can potentially strip a coating, but like, c'mon basic washes, quick detailers, waterless rinses, etc. I would think they shouldn't hurt a coating, but they FUD seems to run rampant.

 

[JasontheBeaver]

I can understand not using something harsh and that can potentially strip a coating, but like, c'mon basic washes, quick detailers, waterless rinses, etc. I would think they shouldn't hurt a coating, but they FUD seems to run rampant.

You're absolutely correct.

 

[dandrewk]

I don't think any professional detailer who has posted here say that adding a spray/wax type product "hurts" anything. For ceramic coating, you would probably have to go out of your way to find any detailing product that damages the coating.

Rather, adding another layer of wax (or anything) will take on the characteristics of that coating. If that's what you want, then fine, but why did you spend all that money for ceramic? Also, anyone who has a ceramic coating can testify that it outshines most wax coatings, so in a way you can degrade the finish... but you won't be damaging anything. This has been posted in this thread several times.

;tldr It won't damage or strip anything, but it may degrade the shine.

 

[jrweiss98020]

I went with Nexgen ceramic coating (Try NEXGEN Ceramic Spray for 40% OFF | Limited Time Only). For me, it went on easily, looks great, and has a reasonable price. It also has great reviews on several sites.

 

[JasontheBeaver]

I don't think any professional detailer who has posted here say that adding a spray/wax type product "hurts" anything. For ceramic coating, you would probably have to go out of your way to find any detailing product that damages the coating.

Rather, adding another layer of wax (or anything) will take on the characteristics of that coating. If that's what you want, then fine, but why did you spend all that money for ceramic? Also, anyone who has a ceramic coating can testify that it outshines most wax coatings, so in a way you can degrade the finish... but you won't be damaging anything. This has been posted in this thread several times.

;tldr It won't damage or strip anything, but it may degrade the shine.

Yes, and we need to continue to stay vigilant to drive this point home because we continue to hear about Tesla owners worrying about which detail spray or car wash soap is "safe to use on their ceramic coated car." To us detailing professionals it's forehead-slappingly frustrating because those comments can also deter potential ceramic coating buyers from considering because of the misconception that a ceramic coating requires more attention, not less.

 

[SumaPerformance]

Ceramic coating is one type of coating, a layer that seals your paint for protection, like wax, sealant etc. But some ceramic coatings claim they are 9H. It is a scale for hardness ranging from 1H-10H. 10H is diamond. It implies that ceramic coating is really strong.

In general, when you wash your car, ceramic or not, make sure there you first clean/rinse off dirt and particles to avoid scratches and swirls. That's what we recommend people when they wash Suma Mirrors, protecting the special GEL.

 

[BudgetPlan1]

I don't think any professional detailer who has posted here say that adding a spray/wax type product "hurts" anything. For ceramic coating, you would probably have to go out of your way to find any detailing product that damages the coating.

Rather, adding another layer of wax (or anything) will take on the characteristics of that coating. If that's what you want, then fine, but why did you spend all that money for ceramic? Also, anyone who has a ceramic coating can testify that it outshines most wax coatings, so in a way you can degrade the finish... but you won't be damaging anything. This has been posted in this thread several times.

;tldr It won't damage or strip anything, but it may degrade the shine.

This. You can use any auto shampoo you desire, any drying aid you like, any quick detailer or spray wax you like and it will not HURT your coating, nor will it strip it. What it will do is cover up/mask your coating until it wears off which will be rather quickly given the coatings inherent properties at rejecting contamination.

You likely had your car coated for protection, self cleaning and hydrophobic properties. Covering these properties up with wax, polymers, sealants or anything not formulated for a coating, while not hurting the coating or weakening its protection, is like throwing a blanket of lesser performing material on your paint.

You can use any car care maintenance product you like on your coated car without fear of damaging or stripping it but once you step out of the arena of things that are formulated specifically for coatings, you'll be diminishing the performance of your coating; not permanently, not dangerously but why do it? Just grab a different bottle/product, one that is made to maintain and enhance your coating instead of temporarily covering it up.

Ceramic coating is one type of coating, a layer that seals your paint for protection, like wax, sealant etc. But some ceramic coatings claim they are 9H. It is a scale for hardness ranging from 1H-10H. 10H is diamond. It implies that ceramic coating is really strong.

In general, when you wash your car, ceramic or not, make sure there you first clean/rinse off dirt and particles to avoid scratches and swirls. That's what we recommend people when they wash Suma Mirrors, protecting the special GEL.

I believe you are confusing the MOHS scale of mineral hardness with the Pencil Test to determine hardness, the test coating mfg's use to reach their somewhat pointless claims of hardness. 10h on the pencil test is not equivalent to diamond but rather the 'hardest' graphite pencil they have come up with, essentially 1.5h on the Mohs scale where a diamond is indeed 10h. If coating mfg's used a consistent scale such as Mohs they'd all be touting "1.5h hardness" which probably doesnt look as good in their marketing materials.

Claims of hardness, scratch resistance and such are, IMO, way over-marketed with coatings. While they may provide some minor resistance to light marring, it’s a harsh world out there and many things (jewelry banging paint around door handles, boxes hitting trunk areas while loading, leaning on hood of vehicle with grimy sweatshirts, etc) *will* leave a mark. Problem with coatings is the only way to remedy those marks/marring is to re-polish (removing coating) and re-coating that area, generally an entire panel as many coatings don’t lend themselves well to spot fixes. If you’re horribly OCD-ish about having a totally defect free car for 2 years, a coating may not be the best way to go…or a ‘lighter’ coating like Gyeon CanCoat may be more appropriate.

Additionally, while trying to wrap my my around it I kinda came up with the following to help understand it in my SiO2 addled mind:

It’s all nonsense marketing. My 2h fingernail will leave a mark on a 10h coating.

The ‘h’ hardness can be measured in 2 different ways...

The Mohs scale of mineral hardness is a scale characterizing scratch resistance of various minerals through the ability of harder material to scratch softer material.

The Pencil Hardness test employs various graphite pencils of varying hardness to determine the h-hardness measurements. Since even the hardest pencil is still made of graphite (Mohs hardness of 1-2) it seems possible (to me anyway) that even a 9h coating (as measured by the pencil test) is really, comparably, at most a 2h hardness and thus quite easily scratched.

For the purposes of coating hardness, perhaps considering the pencil test a subset of the Mohs test which, although kinda a generalization may be useful for comparative purposes. The pencil test, based upon graphite testing pencils, then translates into a subset of the Mohs

MOHS Scale with Pencil Test Subset (and yeah, I just kinda made this up based upon info I could find)
MOHS Hardness

1 Talc
1.5 Graphite

Pencil Test Subset applicable to coatings using graphite pencils:

---1h
---2h
---3h Average Automotive Paint
---4h Average Automotive Paint
---5h
---6h
---7h
---8h
---9h
---10h

2 Gypsum
2-2.5 Fingernail
3 Calcite
4 Fluorite
5 Apatite
6 Orthoclase feldspar
7 Quartz
8 Topaz
9 Corundum
10 Diamond

So, given that coatings are measured using the pencil test (graphite) there is no way for a coating to be any harder than 2h measured on the Mohs scale while a fingernail is 2-2.5h on Mohs

Fingernail – 2-2.5h (Mohs)
Clearcoat – 3-4h (Mohs equivalent 1.5h)
A 9h coating – 9h (Mohs Equivalent 1.5h)

While a coating is indeed slightly harder than the generally accepted toughness of clearcoat, the actual difference is likely very, very, VERY small and my fingernail will still goon up a vaunted 10h coating.

So, while a mfg can claim that their 9h coating is ‘more than twice as hard’ as your clearcoat, it’s really not saying much.

Of course there are more than a few other variables that enter into the equation of scratch resistance (substrate hardness, for one) but, for me, the benefits of coating are the resistance to environmental and the self-cleaning characteristics. I stopped caring about scratch resistance long, long ago.

 

[BudgetPlan1]

If I may ask, how do you feel about using ONR diluted 16:1 for everyday touchup cleaning?

I suspect it has polymers of some sort, give it a try...it won't harm anything. If you notice any diminished performance from your coating after, it'll then you'll know and it'll wear off quickly.

Lotsa folks with coatings like McKees N-914 as a multi-use waterless/rinseless wash...supposed to be a clean, pure product that 'leaves nothing behind'.

I'm not a rinseless or waterless wash guy so not really appropriate for me to say one way or the other.

Safe to say that anything that has things like "... & Wax" on the label is probably a step backwards.

 

[joebruin77]

Lotsa folks with coatings like McKees N-914 as a multi-use waterless/rinseless wash...supposed to be a clean, pure product that 'leaves nothing behind'.

I have used Mckees 37 N-914 both as a rinseless wash and waterless wash and it is a great product. If you buy the concentrate, it is an especially good value / price per wash.

Mckees37 also makes a great dedicated waterless wash called Waterless Wash On The Go. N-914 is a more "pure" wash with no waxes or additives. The Waterless Wash on the Go contains gloss enhancers.

 

[BudgetPlan1]

I have used Mckees 37 N-914 both as a rinseless wash and waterless wash and it is a great product. If you buy the concentrate, it is an especially good value / price per wash.

Mckees37 also makes a great dedicated waterless wash called Waterless Wash On The Go. N-914 is a more "pure" wash with no waxes or additives. The Waterless Wash on the Go contains gloss enhancers.

FWIW, McKees recently cut ties w Autogeek & Autopia...they will no longer carry the McKees products.

Both Autogeek & Autopia been running sales on McKees stuff to clear the shelves the past few days.

 

[N54TT]

I have used a foam gun and had no problems getting plenty of foam. So I don't think you need to run out and buy a foam cannon/pressure washer just to get more foam. I have gotten plenty of foam and suds using Chemical Guys Honeydew Snow Foam Shampoo and even just Meguiars Gold Class Shampoo.

For a car with a ceramic coating, I would probably suggest using a shampoo that is infused with SiO2 in the soap itself. For example, makers of The Last Coat 2.0 also make a great ceramic-infused soap called The Last Soap:

Or another example would be this ceramic-infused soap from Chemical Guys:

HydroSuds High-Gloss Hyper Foaming SiO2 Ceramic Car Wash Soap |

Foam isn’t a must. But if you want foam like in the vid you posted or like this...I was never able to get that level of foam with a garden hose and foam gun. Its been a while since I went down that rabbit hole...maybe things have changed. Post up pics of the foam you get with a foam gun! This is my car after a couple minutes.

 

[TyH2009]

Foam isn’t a must. But if you want foam like in the vid you posted or like this...I was never able to get that level of foam with a garden hose and foam gun. Its been a while since I went down that rabbit hole...maybe things have changed. Post up pics of the foam you get with a foam gun! This is my car after a couple minutes.

View attachment 498977

Was that using a foam gun or foam cannon?

 

[joebruin77]

Foam isn’t a must. But if you want foam like in the vid you posted or like this...I was never able to get that level of foam with a garden hose and foam gun. Its been a while since I went down that rabbit hole...maybe things have changed. Post up pics of the foam you get with a foam gun! This is my car after a couple minutes.

View attachment 498977

Looks pretty foamy to me!

I don't have any pics to post since I only use my foam gun maybe once or twice a year. I wash my car once a week but almost always a rinseless wash with Mckees 37 n-914 or ONR, or as a waterles wash like Mckees 37 Waterless Wash On The Go, Optimum's OptiClean, or Meguiars D115.

The amount of foam produced can be effected by the type of soap you use and the type of foam gun you have. You can also check your foam gun to see if it has an adjustment for the amount of foam produced. I know the foam gun I bought from Chemical Guys has 5 different levels.

You probably already know this but there are a ton of car foam soap reviews on youtube, such as this one:

 

[N54TT]

Was that using a foam gun or foam cannon?

Looks pretty foamy to me!

That’s with my kranzle power washer, mtm pf22 foam cannon and regular Adams shampoo.