What battery cells are in the 2023 M3 LR?

[cobra2326]

Yes, I confused lithiation with lithium plating. I'm still learning about the chemistry aspects of batteries.

This is all really good information. I've actually been trying to supercharge from 40-80% because of the lower C rate due to the lower power availability of the battery. But I wasn't aware of increased lithium plating at higher SOCs, so I'll probably modify my behavior there. I also didn't know SEI or lithium plating was partially reversed by low SOC, so I'll keep that in mind.

I may just try to avoid supercharging when possible. It's not worth saving a few dollars while I have free SuC if it will increase battery wear.

 

[Gasaraki]

Thats right!

To be very precise, the LG battery used is a NCMA or if we like to use the term NMC811 but with 4% Aluminium added. The cells is LG M-50

Tesla used a real NMC-cell in the model 3 in europe for a short while and the first MIC MY that europe did get also had that NMC.
The capacity was about 10% lower than the Panna 2170L.

Yeah I don't get why people keep changing the name of the batteries. There are two types, NCM (or NMC) and LFP. There is no NCA or whatever people are calling it. NMA is really NMC of the original Panasonic batteries. They have higher energy density than LFP batteries from CATL and can charge faster than the NMC batteries from LG. The MIC (Made In China) cars are either LFP batteries (standard range) or NMC batteries by LG. The Panasonic batteries still go in to the LR and Performance versions of the US made models, for now. Looks like in 2024, the LR and Standard range might be getting the LG batteries because the government rebate is going away in 2024 or the Standard and LR (not the Performance). I think the Performance will keep the Panasonic batteries because they still have the highest energy density.

 

[AAKEE]

Yeah I don't get why people keep changing the name of the batteries. There are two types, NCM (or NMC) and LFP. There is no NCA or whatever people are calling it. NMA is really NMC of the original Panasonic batteries. They have higher energy density than LFP batteries from CATL and can charge faster than the NMC batteries from LG. The MIC (Made In China) cars are either LFP batteries (standard range) or NMC batteries by LG. The Panasonic batteries still go in to the LR and Performance versions of the US made models, for now. Looks like in 2024, the LR and Standard range might be getting the LG batteries because the government rebate is going away in 2024 or the Standard and LR (not the Performance). I think the Performance will keep the Panasonic batteries because they still have the highest energy density.

You are so wrong you possibly coulde be.

NMC in one kind of chemistry (Nickel-Mangansese-Cobalt), and NCA (Nickel-Cobalt-Aluminum) is another. There are a lot of other chemistries as well.

All S/X and All model 3 and Y LR/P built in USA had Panasonic NCA batteries until this summer when the M3LR did get the LG M50 NMC (or actually NMC-A as they also have 4% aluminum).

 

[AAKEE]

NCA is just NMCA with less Colbalt...

No, it is not. Either you need to read and learn, or you are just trolling (I can not distinguish which. Would ypu like me to point out some good places to learn?

NMC is one chemistry.
NMCA is a smightly modded chemistry. Better capacity than NMC.

NCA has the best capacity, ~ 10% over NMC and ~ 5% over NMCA.

NCA also have the absolute best power and charge curves of these. This togheter with the power needed set the NCA as the only option for the Plaid X and S.

NMC had historically like 1/3 of all elements, now at 8-1-1 (N-M-C).

NCA never had that much cobalt.

 

[Gasaraki]

You are so wrong you possibly coulde be.

NMC in one kind of chemistry (Nickel-Mangansese-Cobalt), and NCA (Nickel-Cobalt-Aluminum) is another. There are a lot of other chemistries as well.

All S/X and All model 3 and Y LR/P built in USA had Panasonic NCA batteries until this summer when the M3LR did get the LG M50 NMC (or actually NMC-A as they also have 4% aluminum).

NCA is basically a refinement of NMC without the Manganese and less Cobalt.

 

[KenBlub]

You are so wrong you possibly coulde be.

NMC in one kind of chemistry (Nickel-Mangansese-Cobalt), and NCA (Nickel-Cobalt-Aluminum) is another. There are a lot of other chemistries as well.

All S/X and All model 3 and Y LR/P built in USA had Panasonic NCA batteries until this summer when the M3LR did get the LG M50 NMC (or actually NMC-A as they also have 4% aluminum).

I second this. I bought my Model 3 LR in August 2023 made in Fremont and it has the LG battery M50 NCMA

 

[AAKEE]

NCA is basically a refinement of NMC without the Manganese and less Cobalt.

View attachment 1001811

And all Teslas and Ford Mustang are rebranded Chevvy bolts with the Badge as the only physical change.
Everything else is only software mods.
Even my ’23 Plaid is actually a Bolt as well

You need to read a little more before starting to make statements that are completely wrong.

 

[ucmndd]

NCA is basically a refinement of NMC without the Manganese and less Cobalt.

View attachment 1001811

1) Says there are only two types of lithium battery

2) defends wrong info with a graph that shows three

 

[AAKEE]

The type of lithium ion battery tell us which elemenths are in the cathode:
LMO
LCO
LTO
NMC
NCA
LiFePo4 (LFP)

There might be some more than those, these is the ones I got from my memory.

Discussions about if these only are really one type could instead be taken with the industri and the research community that divide and name them like this.
Until the industry standard is changed we can stop discussing this here and we can continue to use the commonly accepted terms. They are actually also quite good as they distinguish and separate the different properties of the different chemistries.

 

[voldar]

NCA is basically a refinement of NMC without the Manganese and less Cobalt.

And I thought it was vice-versa : NCA has more cobalt, not less. My bad.

 

[AAKEE]

And I thought it was vice-versa : NCA has more cobalt, not less. My bad.

NCA has had about 10% -ish for quite some time.
The model 3 cells 2170L had that reduced to a not official number. Tesla doid not release the numbers on the battery day 2020.

NMC has quite recently reduced to 8-1-1 (10% cobalt) from 6-2-2 (20% Cobalt).
Several EV models still use 6-2-2 or equivalent.

 

[3sr+buyer]

NMC has quite recently reduced to 8-1-1 (10% cobalt) from 6-2-2 (20% Cobalt).
Several EV models still use 6-2-2 or equivalent.

A recent example is that the Chevrolet Bolt (Opel Ampera-e) started with NMC 6-2-2 in 2017, but changed to NMC 7-2-1 in 2020.

 

[AAKEE]

NCA is basically a refinement of NMC without

I hope you not think I am rude, I just want to be very clear with whats correct and not.

I try to counteract the myths around batteries.

 

[Videomatic3]

do you know which battery the hyundai ioniq 5 and 6 use?

 

[3sr+buyer]

Third party sites seem to believe that the Ioniq 5/6 use battery cells from SK Innovation, probably a high nickel NMC.

 

[BrianZ]

So do we have a definitive answer on what the battery chemistry is in the current M3 LR and what is the capacity?

 

[AAKEE]

So do we have a definitive answer on what the battery chemistry is in the current M3 LR and what is the capacity?

Definitive.
Or at least as definitive as from other answers here on tmc get us.
(The huge reduction in range initially made me think Tesla had made own NMC Cells with the same chemistry as the Y pack with 4680 NMC cells. But there have been several examples of people describing the battery BT-number inbthe spec of the car that means that these have the 78.8 kWh LG pack.

Its the same battery that 3/Y get in Europe and China since a couple of years.

LG NMC (LG M-50 cells, NMC 8-1-1 but with 4% aluminum added). 78.8 kWh full pack when new.

 

[BrianZ]

Thank you. Interesting. That's a 7% reduction in range (358 vs 333) for a 4% reduction in capacity (79 vs 82). Do we know why there's this discrepancy?

 

[AAKEE]

Thank you. Interesting. That's a 7% reduction in range (358 vs 333) for a 4% reduction in capacity (79 vs 82). Do we know why there's this discrepancy?

We need to wait until we see the EPA test data.

Either tesla lowered the numbers to show a more real world range (not likely?)

Or the LG M-50 cells could perform worse in cold (for example). The 20F test could reduce the range much more than the panasonic cells (different chemistry). <— just an example of a possibility, I have no real source to say that. I saw another car brand EPA test with huge loss in the 20F test (with NMC cells). So it is possible at least.

 

[Videomatic3]

We need to wait until we see the EPA test data.

Either tesla lowered the numbers to show a more real world range (not likely?)

Or the LG M-50 cells could perform worse in cold (for example). The 20F test could reduce the range much more than the panasonic cells (different chemistry). <— just an example of a possibility, I have no real source to say that. I saw another car brand EPA test with huge loss in the 20F test (with NMC cells). So it is possible at least.

333 range is with epa results. Before the results it was advertised as 325+ range