What is preventing this solar + PW system from garage installation? (NorCal, PG&E)

[Vines]

No blade disconnect for each powerwall?

Nope, they come with a built in locking hasp on the powerwall switch now.

 

[holeydonut]

Nope, they come with a built in locking hasp on the powerwall switch now.

Whatttt I need to see a pic of this cool disconnect

 

[wattsup]

Your service disconnect is inside the combo panel, on the exterior wall hopefully. This cuts grid power to the home.

Yes, the combo panel is outside.

The "service disconnect" you're referring to is the first "125A/2P" switch depicted in Tesla's diagram?

The Main breaker is to make the panel compliant with 240.21, so that all sources of power don't overload the (assumed 125A) bus and wiring of the existing panel.

Got it, makes sense.

My house currently seems to have this breaker outside, in the combo panel, rather than inside with the distribution panel.

The distribution panel appears to have a special "main" slot where it seems a main breaker could go, but it is empty.

2020 NEC 706.15 requires that the Powerwall circuit be all of the following

I assume you meant to write "Powerwall circuit breaker" above?

In the diagram previously shown, this breaker would be the second one labeled "125A/2P", depicted between the gateway and distribution panel?

So, although it is connected to the gateway (and not directly to any PW), that breaker would be considered as "the Powerwall circuit breaker" in the proposed system?

1. Readily accessible
2. Within sight of the ESS or if impractical as close as practicable and there are marking requirements.
3. Lockable in the open position
4. For 1 and 2-family dwellings, a disconnecting means or its remote control shall be outside and readily;y accessible.

If the PWs were placed in my garage, they would definitely be within sight of my distribution panel, and vice versa.

So... if the main breaker (the one depicted just before the distribution panel) was physically installed near the distribution panel (or even within it, in the empty "main" slot mentioned above) it too would be within sight of the PWs -- and so it sounds like this would all satisfy code.

Or, would Tesla just be relying on the individual disconnect switches on each of the PWs? I understand these switches are lockable now... and so satisfy #1, #2, and #3 above?

That, plus Tesla would wire up the remote e-stop button outside (presumably near the combo panel).

 

[wattsup]

My take is that line is a mistake and doesn't belong in the diagram.

Thanks for chiming in, @wwhitney.

That was also my assumption. I understand electrical circuits, and diagrams like this seem pretty self-explanatory to me, but I am certainly no expert here, and so I wondered if that line had some special significance that I just wasn't familiar with.

As to the OP, I haven't reviewed the whole thread, but my first reaction is that Tesla may just be avoiding garage installs because in some jurisdictions they had problems with them. I.e. they may only want to do fast and easy installs, and so they may not want to take the time and effort to determine the details of what would be required to do a garage install in your jurisdiction, nor to trust that you have correctly done that work.

I know what you're saying, but things actually seem pretty straightforward in my jurisdiction. ESS installations are governed only by the 2022 California Fire Code, with the only caveat being that the jurisdiction has arbitrarily decided to ignore doesn't currently accept the UL 9540A test results for the Powerwall, and so 3' separation is required.

But, I have the room for a garage installation despite this, and my garage meets all other requirements in the 2022 CFC, minus a heat detector, which my local city official has provided a specific remedy for, down to the model numbers of acceptable equipment. This is the same official who would actually review and approve Tesla's plans.

I have reported all this to Tesla, more than once (and, btw, who were initially wrong about the rules in my jurisdiction, telling me that PW stacking was allowed, and sprinklers required -- neither was correct), but my "Solar Advisor" is hemming and hawing about whether a garage installation "can be accommodated" -- as if there are some mysterious issues or regulations.

I am still pushing Tesla. I am not very keen on the exterior wall they are proposing for the installation (it is all along the bedroom side of the house).

 

[wattsup]

Tesla wants to keep installs easy and they aren't setup to go much out of the box and risk having to re-do a bunch of work at final inspection.

Yet they let you check off, "I would prefer a garage installation", when placing your order.

 

[jjrandorin]

Whatttt I need to see a pic of this cool disconnect

Its not a disconnect. Its a small locking hasp on the powerwall switch, as @Vines said. Here is a pic of the one on mine, with a fingertip included for size reference.

 

[wattsup]

So after a few weeks of back and forth with my Tesla advisor about my solar/PW install, which Tesla has designed for an exterior wall (I want it in the garage, which all seems okay with my local AHJ), the advisor suddenly says this:

There was an internal process change for projects in California that simply prohibits this. While I am not certain on the "why", all of our operations centers throughout California have now moved to only accommodating interior Powerwall installations for detached garages.

So, no attached garages anymore, according to this. And, what, they just decided this today? (I guess possible)

Why I couldn’t have been informed of this policy earlier, I’m not sure.

Has anyone else run into this?

Have you managed to find out the “why”?

 

[jjrandorin]

This is part of the same discussion thread you already have here, which is why your post was moved into this thread. Its the answer to your thread question, actually, as to "what is preventing this install".

 

[wattsup]

Its not a disconnect. Its a small locking hasp on the powerwall switch

Right, but is the switch on the PW sufficient (now with this locking ability) as a disconnect per code?

 

[jjrandorin]

Right, but is the switch on the PW sufficient (now with this locking ability) as a disconnect per code?

That would be a question for @Vines or @wwhitney . I just know what the locking mechanism on the powerwall switch looks like on newer powerwalls, since I have one on mine.

 

[wattsup]

This is part of the same discussion thread you already have here, which is why your post was moved into this thread. Its the answer to your thread question, actually, as to "what is preventing this install".

I appreciate and accept the moderation, though I think the possibility that Tesla has unilaterally disallowed attached garage installations might be worthy of its own thread. I was hoping to reach a wider audience than just the people who had read deep into this thread.

Also my original post here was meant to more answer the question about any technical or code related issue preventing the install, rather than a (apparently new) Tesla “policy”. The distinction is subtle for sure, in terms of simply getting an answer to my specific question.

(Also, apologies for the second post attempt.. I am on mobile, and it wasn’t clear if my initial post had simply failed.)

 

[Vines]

That would be a question for @Vines or @wwhitney . I just know what the locking mechanism on the powerwall switch looks like on newer powerwalls, since I have one on mine.

The switch on the side of the powerwall is allowed as an ESS disconnect as it satisfies the code.

 

[wattsup]

@Vines, have you heard anything about Tesla recently "officially" starting to refuse interior PW installations in attached garages "throughout California"?

See where I quote my Tesla advisor in my earlier comment.

Apparently, interior installs in detached garages are still possible... though it would seem to me that, in general, such installs would be potentially way more complex than attached garages (what, with underground conduit runs possibly needed, etc.).

As far as I know, both situations have all the same requirements per the CFC, with the single exception that sprinklers and/or heat detectors are not required in a detached garage. (Am I correct?)

 

[BGbreeder]

@Vines, have you heard anything about Tesla recently "officially" starting to refuse interior PW installations in attached garages "throughout California"?

See where I quote my Tesla advisor in my earlier comment.

Apparently, interior installs in detached garages are still possible... though it would seem to me that, in general, such installs would be potentially way more complex than attached garages (what, with underground conduit runs possibly needed, etc.).

As far as I know, both situations have all the same requirements per the CFC, with the single exception that sprinklers and/or heat detectors are not required in a detached garage. (Am I correct?)

I don't know if this helps, but I think about risk a great deal. (Professionally)

I can't speak for Tesla, or AHJ, but outside installation and installations in detached garages puts the energy storage devices outside of the inhabited envelope of the home. I can imagine some risk assessor sitting at a table with Tesla saying "Why install Powerwalls inside the home or in an inside garage? What is the upside to the added risk?"

Many (most?) interior garages have living spaces over them, often bedrooms. That is high risk for something like eight hours a day.

But it may also be as simple as interior installs take an extra 49 hours of engineering and compliance time, making them uneconomic.

Regardless, Tesla has decided not to do them.

 

[holeydonut]

I don't know if this helps, but I think about risk a great deal. (Professionally)

I can't speak for Tesla, or AHJ, but outside installation and installations in detached garages puts the energy storage devices outside of the inhabited envelope of the home. I can imagine some risk assessor sitting at a table with Tesla saying "Why install Powerwalls inside the home or in an inside garage? What is the upside to the added risk?"

Many (most?) interior garages have living spaces over them, often bedrooms. That is high risk for something like eight hours a day.

But it may also be as simple as interior installs take an extra 49 hours of engineering and compliance time, making them uneconomic.

Regardless, Tesla has decided not to do them.

The bollard industry is in shambles

 

[wattsup]

I don't know if this helps, but I think about risk a great deal. (Professionally)

I can't speak for Tesla, or AHJ, but outside installation and installations in detached garages puts the energy storage devices outside of the inhabited envelope of the home. I can imagine some risk assessor sitting at a table with Tesla saying "Why install Powerwalls inside the home or in an inside garage? What is the upside to the added risk?"

Many (most?) interior garages have living spaces over them, often bedrooms. That is high risk for something like eight hours a day.

But it may also be as simple as interior installs take an extra 49 hours of engineering and compliance time, making them uneconomic.

Regardless, Tesla has decided not to do them.

Thanks.

This might also explain the (apparent) cageyness of my advisor. I mean, how would it look insisting a customer must install right outside the kids’ bedroom window (my case) while at the same time explaining the garage is off-limits because of “the risk” (which he hasn’t said; I’m just extrapolating from your comment).

So…. instead it’s all kinda mysterious, and referred to vaguely as a “process change”.

 

[holeydonut]

Thanks.

This might also explain the (apparent) cageyness of my advisor. I mean, how would it look insisting a customer must install right outside the kids’ bedroom window (my case) while at the same time explaining the garage is off-limits because of “the risk” (which he hasn’t said; I’m just extrapolating from your comment).

So…. instead it’s all kinda mysterious, and referred to vaguely as a “process change”.

Here’s the document vines shared before about the indoor installation for Woodside. As someone who hates reading, I can understand why a battery installer would just say ****it, we’re installing outdoors.

Santa Clara County retroactively Changing ESS Rules

Good news from CPA, looks like they are going to be reasonable, and not try to change the rules after the permit is issued! but how about for new permits?

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[wattsup]

Here’s the document vines shared before about the indoor installation for Woodside. As someone who hates reading, I can understand why a battery installer would just say ****it, we’re installing outdoors.

That doc just seems to be a restatement of the current fire code. It is something more?

 

[holeydonut]

That doc just seems to be a restatement of the current fire code. It is something more?

It’s got a lot of words and pictures? Don’t have to worry about these words and pictures if you install outdoors. Also keeps your Porsche from hitting a bollard.

 

[wattsup]

It’s got a lot of words and pictures? Don’t have to worry about these words and pictures if you install outdoors. Also keeps your Porsche from hitting a bollard.

That’s what I’m saying…. the text seems largely unchanged from the fire code. At a glance, it appears nearly identical.

The garage diagram does differ a bit, but is very similar to the garage diagram in the fire code.