What is preventing this solar + PW system from garage installation? (NorCal, PG&E)

[Vines]

That’s what I’m saying…. the text seems largely unchanged from the fire code. At a glance, it appears nearly identical.

The garage diagram does differ a bit, but is very similar to the garage diagram in the fire code.

That is the older document, the new one I managed to sneak in a couple of model 3's into the code image.

Basically, this is probably about the heat detector issue. Its not easy to find the right product to accomplish interior installations in a 100% code compliant way. The HD6135FB isnt really listed to be in a garage, though its probably ok for that in a mild climate.

 

[wwhitney]

Its not easy to find the right product to accomplish interior installations in a 100% code compliant way.

Is no one using the solution I described here? Santa Clara County retroactively Changing ESS Rules I believe it checks all the boxes.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Vines]

Is no one using the solution I described here? Santa Clara County retroactively Changing ESS Rules I believe it checks all the boxes.

Cheers, Wayne

Nobody that I know of is using that solution.

 

[Vines]

Is no one using the solution I described here? Santa Clara County retroactively Changing ESS Rules I believe it checks all the boxes.

Cheers, Wayne

I am not an alarm expert, but I decided to read the installation manual for the product you provided.

What does this portion of the manual mean?

 

[Vines]

I am not an alarm expert, but I decided to read the installation manual for the product you provided.

What does this portion of the manual mean?
View attachment 930610

Also, it appears that the only heat alarms that are listed to use with this are the same ones with 115F maximum operating temperatures.

 

[wattsup]

Nobody that I know of is using that solution.

Fwiw, I was going to (any may still if I can find an installer who is okay with putting batteries in the garage).

I checked this exact relay solution with my building dept (as they had said they would require a particular 194-degree mechanical heat detector for the garage) and they said they would approve such a system.

I was going to use the heat detector, relay, and one interconnectable smoke alarm, audible from the bedrooms. (The rest of the alarms in my house are basic battery powered units. I have no alarm panel.)

 

[holeydonut]

That is the older document, the new one I managed to sneak in a couple of model 3's into the code image.
View attachment 930590

Basically, this is probably about the heat detector issue. Its not easy to find the right product to accomplish interior installations in a 100% code compliant way. The HD6135FB isnt really listed to be in a garage, though its probably ok for that in a mild climate.

Time for you to update it with a Model Y ! And update your avatar...

 

[wattsup]

I am not an alarm expert, but I decided to read the installation manual for the product you provided.

What does this portion of the manual mean?
View attachment 930610

I am not alarm expert either, but in the alarm world, and in the context of this manual, I believe "supervision" means configuring alarms/detectors/etc. such that a wiring fault (disconnected alarm, etc.) can be detected by the alarm control panel. As I understand it, supervision usually involves special "watchdog" relays (inside the alarm panel) that will open/close depending on the state of connected circuits, and triggering a diagnostic state within the panel.

So... I believe what they are saying here is, don't "roll your own" supervision using this relay, particularly for "life safety" applications (e.g., a fire alarm as opposed to a burglar alarm). That's not what this relay is for.

 

[Vines]

Fwiw, I was going to (any may still if I can find an installer who is okay with putting batteries in the garage).

I checked this exact relay solution with my building dept (as they had said they would require a particular 194-degree mechanical heat detector for the garage) and they said they would approve such a system.

I was going to use the heat detector, relay, and one interconnectable smoke alarm, audible from the bedrooms. (The rest of the alarms in my house are basic battery powered units. I have no alarm panel.)

Great if it is approved it is approved. It would not be installed according to the installation manual with any other heat alarms than the

Those 2 heat alarms it is to be used with are both 135F trigger units.

 

[Vines]

Time for you to update it with a Model Y ! And update your avatar...

It is coming out of the wrap shop Monday. I am getting it wrapped in STEK DYNOprism PPF. I took a sneak peek yesterday and it looks amazing.

I may call her Ultraviolet.

 

[wattsup]

Also, it appears that the only heat alarms that are listed to use with this are the same ones with 115F maximum operating temperatures.

View attachment 930611

I believe the listed alarms (smoke, heat, or otherwise) are simply all those Kidde models which are compatible with the 9V interconnect signal that this relay emits.

But, none of those alarms "need" to use this relay. The need for this relay arises in situation where some "external" 120V switched circuit (such as one controlled by a mechanical heat detector) should activate a system of interconnected alarms as if that switched circuit was one of those alarms.

Specifically, when the 120V circuit is switched on (in our example, a mechanical heat detector gets too hot and closes its contacts), the relay module would emit a 9V signal which, if connected to one or more compatible Kidde alarms, will cause all the interconnected alarms to sound. (There is a wiring diagram in the manual which illustrates this use-case.)

Basically, this relay is an adapter which turns any 120V switched circuit into a Kidde-compatible interconnect signal.

I don't think Kidde even makes a mechanical heat detector of their own, so this relay is clearly intended to "interface" Kidde-based systems with devices from other manufacturers.

 

[wattsup]

Great if it is approved it is approved. It would not be installed according to the installation manual with any other heat alarms than the
View attachment 930616
Those 2 heat alarms it is to be used with are both 135F trigger units.

Those are the alarms you can activate (in an interconnected manner) from the "output side" of this relay. The "input side" would be connected to some "external" switched circuit, such as one wired through a mechanical heat detector.

Don't confuse the heat alarms that Kidde happens to make (which can be activated by this relay, like many of their other alarms), with whatever device might be on the other side of the relay.

What we are talking about here is putting a mechanical heat detector on the input side of the relay, in order to activate an existing system of interconnected Kidde alarms (smoke, heat, or other) on the output side.

 

[holeydonut]

It is coming out of the wrap shop Monday. I am getting it wrapped in STEK DYNOprism PPF. I took a sneak peek yesterday and it looks amazing.

I may call her Ultraviolet.

Lol get some extra sheets and wrap your Powerwalls!

 

[wwhitney]

I am not an alarm expert, but I decided to read the installation manual for the product you provided.

What does this portion of the manual mean?

I think the first paragraph is a general warning about how smoke alarms are not the same thing as a fire alarm panel with smoke detectors and all that jazz, but I'm not an expert either.

I think the second paragraph is just telling you that when you use this relay to trigger something based on the alarm state of the connected smoke alarms, the relay will be closed while the smokes are in alarm, and open otherwise.

Also, it appears that the only heat alarms that are listed to use with this are the same ones with 115F maximum operating temperatures.

If you're talking about where it refers to the HD135F heat alarm, that list is of compatible UL217 products that can be interconnected on the alarm side of the system. That would be when you are using the relay to trigger something else based on the alarm state (e.g. a siren or a flashing light or something).

But what is novel about the manual for that relay product is that it also supports using the relay as an alarm initiator, not just as a receiver of information. So you could wire the relay to a doorbell, say, and whenever you push the doorbell, all the connected UL217 alarms would go off.

That's not useful, but wiring it to a mechanical high temperature heat detector (not a UL 217 heat alarm) would let you do what is required. Effectively creating a "split system" heat alarm, where the mechanical portion is in the garage, and the alarm portion (the relay) is elsewhere in conditioned space that complies with the relay maximum operating temperature.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Vines]

When I asked Santa Clara County Fire about using this exact relay, they were not interested that this was the solution we used.

Glad to understand it a bit better now. This is definitely cheaper but more complicated than our solution with the Omnishield wireless heat and smoke alarms.

 

[ptdusn]

The meter and main service panel (with just the main breaker) are on the opposite side of the house from the garage. The garage has the distribution panel (with all the circuit breakers).

I want the PW in the garage for protection (keep out of damp, salty coastal air) and to avoid complications with HVAC equipment I want to install on the same area Tesla is proposing for all their equipment.

The PW would be near the panels. My house is basically one big gable roof, with one plane (southern facing) to be nearly filled with panels. About half the panels (of the single large array) will be directly over the garage.

One can imagine that Tesla could easily punch directly down into the garage (from underneath the array) straight to the equipment.

Do you have a bedroom over the garage?? We do here in AZ and Sunrun stated that prevented them from installing in the garage.

 

[dho112]

I'm in Alameda County and they installed my powerwall inside the garage with the gateway and ESS outide next to my main panel (Subpanel inside the garage) There didn't seem to be any issue at all with having the powerwall inside the garage, and as far as distance from the main panel and the Tesla gateway, they even said they could mount the powerwall on the opposite side of the house next to my AC unit if I wanted; A utility area outside a good 60-70 feet from the main panel. They just didn't seem at all to be concerned with where the battery went (inside or out, near or far) as long as the gateway and emergency shut off was near the main electrical panel and meter.

 

[wattsup]

Do you have a bedroom over the garage?? We do here in AZ and Sunrun stated that prevented them from installing in the garage.

No, single story house. A good portion of the solar panels with be over the garage roof, in fact.

 

[SVMike]

I have an existing solar system (non-Tesla) and I'm considering a Powerwall, probably next year.
I'm curious about the pros and cons of putting it inside my garage or outside on an east facing wall.
Inside I have a wood shop that sometimes gets very dusty and I have limited wall space.
Outside I have my existing solar inverter, meter/breaker box and some bushes I can remove.

Temps should not be a problem in Silicon Valley area

Thoughts from current owners?

Thanks

 

[dhrivnak]

Check with local codes and manty areas restrict putting batteries inside. That said inside is slightly better as there is no effects of weathering and no need to heat the battery when temps drop below 40F.