doghousePVD
My grandfather’s car
I am very happy charging my Tesla X at home at 17kw. Wish I could do it on the road more. Many destination chargers, especially at parks, are 19kw.
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3KW is about 13 mph charging so, overnight, one can get about 100 miles of range - fine for nearly all daily usage so it is generally usable but offers little flexibility.
I am very happy charging my Tesla X at home at 17kw. Wish I could do it on the road more. Many destination chargers, especially at parks, are 19kw.
I tired to argue to the board that for individual parking spaces we'd be ok with 1kW for charging for overnight (and multi day for people who work from home). We already have the infrastructure (120V AC outlets) and only need to run some conduits to some of the parking spaces and install a billing/metering system via smart outlets. I also tried to argue that 12 kW chargers in the shared charging bays would be good enough for those who either can't get a conduit at their space or don't want to pay for one, and also useful for guests and valet users (roughly 25% of my garage is valet with the rest being resident owned spaces)I would suggest that you should have high powered chargers in a section of the parking where you have to move your car, like visitor parking. The 6kW chargers should go in assigned parking stalls or long dwell where people are expecting to leave the car overnight or all day long. In fact, I would argue that you should oversubscribe those long dwell chargers with power sharing. For example, put 10 stations on a 200 amp feeder. Chances are there will never be 10 people charging at the same time. In fact, you can set them up so that they can go up to 48amps, but they share the power. If everyone plugged in at the same time they will only get like 3.3kW, but in reality that will never happen.
I seldom use more than about 3KW with my 3 since I share a 50 KW breaker with a Roadster and a back room in the garage with an A/C unit. It tends to work fine for my ~35 mile commute. I seldom ever use the full 19KW on the Roadster since our 19KW EVSE is outside and I usually charge the Roadster in the garage.Probably based on early low capacity EVs like the Leaf, or plug in hybrids like the Volt. 3kW is enough to overnight charge those vehicles.
Most likely, some of those 120v outlets are daisy-chained and share a common (probably 20A) breaker so they really aren't viable for 1 kw charging. You may be able to utilize some of the existing conduits and wiring and save some expense but I suspect new breakers will be needed as well as some new conduits and wiring.We already have the infrastructure (120V AC outlets)
This is obviously nonsense, however, anyone who lives in a Boston condo and drives an F150 is clearly compensating for something so it will likely be hard to reason with him. If there is any rationality: 19 KW should get an F150 about 400 miles in an 8-hour overnight charge. 10 KW (240v/40a - NEMA 14-50 outlet) will get about 240 miles (probably well more than nearly all daily usage), even 6 kW should get about 150 miles overnight. Trying to handle 19KW at all spaces will most likely require a major upgrade to the electrical infrastructure (new transformer). Depending on how far the F150 actually needs to drive each day, the above 3.3 KW solution may actually suffice. Otherwise, 6 KW or more will probably take more extensive ($$$) modifications, but that can be reserved for the macho guys.The F150 guy shot me down saying 1 kW is useless and 6 kW is useless and only 19 kW in his personal space AND the shared charging bays should be considered.
The cost of a single 11.5 kW is not double the cost of a typical 6kW. Not sure where you're getting that data.Faster chargers don’t really solve any of the problems with sharing, blocking stalls, cycling cars quicker, etc. people are knobs (the F150L guy referenced upthread sounds like a REAL knob) and the only way to get people to collectively do the right thing is to penalize bad behavior (i.e. idle fees).
In that case faster charging can actually be a detriment - fact of the matter is most people don’t want to get up at 2am to move their cars. They wanna plug in at night and unplug when they leave in the morning. Other side of the same coin, few want to get up in the middle of the night to move their car to a newly freed charger.
Installing a single 11-20kw charger is probably close to double the cost of a typical 6kw install. Would you rather have two 6kw chargers or one 11kw? In almost every case, I’ll take 2x6.
It’s more than you imagine at commercial scale. Charging equipment itself is more expensive. Upsized conductors, conduit, code requirements that start mandating big burly disconnects, etc etc etc.The cost of a single 11.5 kW is not double the cost of a typical 6kW. Not sure where you're getting that data.
I have to disagree with pretty much everything you said to some degree or another.the only way to get people to collectively do the right thing is to penalize bad behavior (i.e. idle fees).
However, you started out as you missed the whole point by suggesting that:most people don’t want to get up at 2am to move their cars. They wanna plug in at night and unplug when they leave in the morning. Other side of the same coin, few want to get up in the middle of the night to move their car to a newly freed charger.
as this is only true when someone artificially makes it true by charging horrible idle fees for level 2 charging.faster charging can actually be a detriment
While sometimes true, usually isn't. Installation of an 11 - 20KW charger can cost nearly the same as a 6 KW or it can cost a whole lot more than 2X.Installing a single 11-20kw charger is probably close to double the cost of a typical 6kw install. Would you rather have two 6kw chargers or one 11kw? In almost every case, I’ll take 2x6.
Good point that a lot of people miss. Commercial power distribution is different than residential. 208 VAC is coming from a 3-Phase power source where 240V/120V is coming from a single-phase power source.6kw is probably common because it’s likely fed by 208VAC which is a typical step-down from higher voltages that commercial buildings use. Limit it to 32 amps and you get 6.6kw or less with voltage drop.
Limiting to 32Amps is likely infrastructure and labor-based on 40A breakers and a certain tendency to not use higher gage wires. The thicker is is, the harder to run.
There was a period where the Model X and Model S both had the option of a third charger. The Model Y and Model 3 only have ever allowed for 2. But before he Model 3 was introduced, Tesla dropped the option. That's also when the stopped selling the larger Wall Connector.I didn't know there were any Model Xs that could charge above 11.5kW.
Yea, not 1 kW, 1.44 kW is a standard 120V 15A circuit.I tired to argue to the board that for individual parking spaces we'd be ok with 1kW for charging for overnight (and multi day for people who work from home). We already have the infrastructure (120V AC outlets) and only need to run some conduits to some of the parking spaces and install a billing/metering system via smart outlets. I also tried to argue that 12 kW chargers in the shared charging bays would be good enough for those who either can't get a conduit at their space or don't want to pay for one, and also useful for guests and valet users (roughly 25% of my garage is valet with the rest being resident owned spaces)
The F150 guy shot me down saying 1 kW is useless and 6 kW is useless and only 19 kW in his personal space AND the shared charging bays should be considered. The problem with that is running the cabling to support anything more than 1 kW in our parking spaces is an infrastructure project the HOA can't afford and won't do. And if they did it would take a lot of time. So I said let's just use what we got in the parking spaces (1kW) for the residents that want it because it's cheap and easy (no need to re wire the garage) and for the rest let's install the fastest technology that is practical in the shared charging bays (11 kW). We'll see how that goes....
Sorry for the digression.
208v -vs- 240v is basically a rounding error. They're basically the same thing with it comes to charging speed. Its the current that matters.208 VAC is coming from a 3-Phase power source where 240V/120V is coming from a single-phase power source.
Sure there is: It is 8 amps at 120 volts = 0.960 KW which is ~ 1 KW. A lot of EVs had their "Level 1" limit set at 8 amps to minimize problems when folks try to plug into wall outlets that share other loads.And there isn't any way that you can limit to just 1 kW.
Shocked, shocked I amI have to disagree with pretty much everything you said to some degree or another.
I mean, this is where we fundamentally disagree and will apparently continue to. Charging spaces in public/shared environments are for charging. Not parking.First of all, IMHO, a level 2 charger should be assumed to be a parking space and one should expect it to be occupied as long as the person parking there is doing whatever they are parked there for.
6kw is more than fast enough to give pretty much any EV on the road an acceptable charge recovery overnight. Most public/shared environments have a finite amount of power available and it can be prohibitively expensive to add more (not to mention the demand charges associated with delivering more.as this is only true when someone artificially makes it true by charging horrible idle fees for level 2 charging.
Fun fact: The early Roadsters used AC Propulsion's patented "reductive charging", where they used the motor's windings as part of the transformer for the charging circuit. This way, 20 KW charging was easy and cheap (few additional parts needed) since the active electronics could handle way more than that.There was a period where the Model X and Model S both had the option of a third charger. The Model Y and Model 3 only have ever allowed for 2. But before he Model 3 was introduced, Tesla dropped the option. That's also when the stopped selling the larger Wall Connector.
That 4/3 Romex can still find a use. I used it in my case where the wall charger was going on the next stud over from my panel; the wire had to go down out of the panel, through a stud, and up into the charger. I didn't have to install for the full 48A, but thinking ahead to possibly having a second EV I figured why not. Pulling that 3ft of Romex even with the extra useless conductor was still easier than trying to put conduit into the wall for such a short distance.If you run Romex, you need 4awg, and that's typically only made in 4/3 (which you have an extra conductor wasted). That costs $13.49/ft. So for less than 2x the power 14x the price in the wiring!
Southwire 500 ft. 4/3 Stranded Romex SIMpull CU NM-B W/G Wire 63968205 - The Home Depot
If you run THHN in conduit, you can use 6awg (one black, one red, one 8awg ground), which works out to $1.58+1.21+0.50+$1/ft conduit= $4.29/ft
Southwire 1000 ft. 4 Black Stranded CU SIMpull THHN Wire 20499004 - The Home Depot
Cerrowire 500 ft. 8 Gauge Green Stranded Copper THHN Wire 112-4005J - The Home Depot
Search Results for conduit cost at The Home Depot
That's still 4.5x the price.
I agree here with exceptions: Large, inefficient EVs (trucks) charging overnight on the road.6kw is more than fast enough to give pretty much any EV on the road an acceptable charge recovery overnight.
For cars, in general, I agree, however, as trucks start becoming more prevalent, 11 - 20 KW will be much more necessary for hotels and work fleets.I struggle to think many scenarios where a single 11-20kw charger is more useful than 2-3 6kw stations
Your 2:1 cost ratio is flawed as I and others have pointed out. As far as shared resources go (think hotel), once they run the trench out to the parking lot and install the pedestal, whether they run thick or thin wires is nearly irrelevant.single 11-20kw charger is more useful than 2-3 6kw stations.
Think this all you want, however, when I see your hotel charges me an idle fee and the one next door doesn't or rents rooms for cheaper, I'm not going to your hotel where I'll have to get up in the middle of the night (after having to guess or figure out when my car will be done) in order to move it.I mean, this is where we fundamentally disagree and will apparently continue to. Charging spaces in public/shared environments are for charging. Not parking.