Why doesn't Tesla use traditional model years?

[CapeOne]

CapeOne if you want an example just think back to the AP announcement. Tesla included mid year both AP hardware and the software later in the year that supported the hardware.
Can you think of a similar example from Audi, BMW or Mercedes?

It is not uncommon for other automakers to add, discontinue, modify, etc. options, powertrains, features, trim levels, etc. during a model year. The AP example you gave could’ve occurred exactly the same while using model years. Nothing Tesla has been doing with the Model S thus far would've been hindered by using model years.

My question is why does it really matter?

I won’t rehash any more of what I've already posted here (even I am getting sick of this topic) but invite you to also read another similar post on this subject at KBB, NADA, Edmunds and valuing Teslas .

And while you can give examples like motorcycles, snowmobiles etc. that have model years there are just as many examples where there aren''t model years, especially for electronics.

Goods, especially higher dollar goods, that are commonly sold and traded over and over often have model years. It matters less for goods that are bought and kept indefinitely or thrown away like many electronics or cheaper consumer items.

 

[CapeOne]

There's really no reason to be limited to model years--especially when there are something like 35 changes made each month (that's the number I recall Elon tweeting--I could be misremembering).

Everything Tesla has done with the Model S could’ve still been done even if model years were used. I see some disadvantages to not using model years but no worthwhile advantage.

 

[CapeOne]

It's an archaic approach. But I can see how it is necessary for vehicles which do not have the advantage of OTA updates such as a Tesla.

Using model years wouldn't effect doing updates (OTA or otherwise). Other automakers can and do make changes to cars during model years, or even later on e.g. recalls.

 

[ecarfan]

Other automakers can and do make changes to cars during model years,

Yes they do, but every other automaker also spends huge sums to market their "new" models every year, typically in the fall, and advertise incessantly their "all new" cars (ads which prominently display the current year, e.g. "2016) which in reality are never all new but are simply slightly modified versions of the same car they were manufacturing. This pattern of car marketing has been going on for over 60 years in the US.

Tesla has never done any marketing like that, nor has it even announced a new feature tied to a "new model year". Tesla does not use the "model year" terminology. One often sees references such as "2014 Model S", for example, as if the Tesla vehicles built during those 12 months had a specific feature set that differed from the vehicles built during the 12 months of 2105, but that is due to people still thinking in the traditional "car model year" mindset and not because Tesla thinks that way. It does not.

 

[Krugerrand]

...but that is due to people still thinking in the traditional "car model year" mindset and not because Tesla thinks that way. It does not.

...and no amount of arguing against that will change it if/until Tesla decides to become traditional - which one shouldn't hold their breath for especially considering Tesla is about to officially become an energy company rather than a car company. We'll just have to deal and adapt our thinking.

 

[CapeOne]

Yes they do, but every other automaker also spends huge sums to market their "new" models every year, typically in the fall, and advertise incessantly their "all new" cars (ads which prominently display the current year, e.g. "2016) which in reality are never all new but are simply slightly modified versions of the same car they were manufacturing. This pattern of car marketing has been going on for over 60 years in the US.

Tesla has never done any marketing like that, nor has it even announced a new feature tied to a "new model year". Tesla does not use the "model year" terminology. One often sees references such as "2014 Model S", for example, as if the Tesla vehicles built during those 12 months had a specific feature set that differed from the vehicles built during the 12 months of 2105, but that is due to people still thinking in the traditional "car model year" mindset and not because Tesla thinks that way. It does not.

Again, nothing Tesla has done thus far as far as updates, how they may or may not market their products, etc. would've had to be different by using model years. Model years wouldn't have hindered Tesla at all. I just don't see nearly enough benefit in 'being different just for the sake of being different' or being 'anti-establishment' when it potentially creates unnecessary complications/problems.

As one example (or go to KBB, NADA, Edmunds and valuing Teslas ), let's say Tesla does a significant redesign of the Model S in mid-2019 and by them not using 'model years' you would have two very different cars both identified as 2019 models. When you go to KBB, NADA, etc. to value the car later on how will you know if the 2019 model listed is the all-new car or the old car? How will KBB and others come up with accurate valuations for consumers, insurance companies, banks, etc. if two very different cars of the same model are both identified as 2019s?

 

[MorrisonHiker]

As one example (or go to KBB, NADA, Edmunds and valuing Teslas ), let's say Tesla does a significant redesign of the Model S in mid-2019 and by them not using 'model years' you would have two very different cars both identified as 2019 models. When you go to KBB, NADA, etc. to value the car later on how will you know if the 2019 model listed is the all-new car or the old car? How will KBB and others come up with accurate valuations for consumers, insurance companies, banks, etc. if two very different cars of the same model are both identified as 2019s?

Besides asking for make/mode/year, KBB and other sites allow you to indicate options available on the car, such as automatic transmission, AWD, etc. They use the selected options (not just the year) to determine the value of the vehicle.

These sites can handle Tesla valuations just fine by listing out the various options available. If you want to know old nosecone vs. the 'refreshed' S nose, there is an option code for that. Want to know if the S has the old or newer panoramic roof? There are different options codes for those panoramic roofs. How about Subzero package with or without a heated steering wheel. There are different option codes for those packages.

Whenever major changes are made, new option codes are added. KBB and the other sites just need to take those option codes into account when making valuations.

 

[GarrickS]

If Tesla isn't going to have model years, then they could at least version the cars so we can refer to them more easily.

How will we refer to the "post-refresh" Model S after the next refresh? Will they be "first refresh cars"?

How will we refer to the cars with the "original" 60kwh battery versus the upgradable 60/75kw battery? This car should never have been called a 60. Tesla should have called it a 60.75 or a 61 or something that isn't "60". Consider how difficult it will be to calculate residuals. In a few years, a 60 ordered in May 2016 should be worth a lot less than one ordered in June 2016.

A versioned name would be pretty cool... "Oh, Tesla just released Model S.5!"

 

[sandpiper]

The car buff in me much prefers model years for cosmetic/style change reasons e.g. being able to look at a car and say, that's a 2006 or that’s a 2010-2012 or that the first year for the new style XYZ model was 2015, etc.

I think a reason manufacturers use model years is because they don't want to be strictly limited to major redesigns being released on/around January 1st and still recognize the advantages of at least redesigns following a 'year' to 'year' identifier. If a manufacturer releases a significant redesign mid-year, they will have two very different looking cars identified by the exact same year. At a minimum, that can complicate things like future valuations (discussed in a separate thread here: KBB, NADA, Edmunds and valuing Teslas).

Since model years don't prevent manufacturers from adding, removing or upgrading options/features/components during that year, I don't really see an advantage for using the calendar year to 'label' a car as Tesla does. Tesla wanting to be different is fine unless it's simply for the sake of being different with little or no advantage, or worse.....potential disadvantages.

What am I missing?

I believe Tesla can't use model years yet because, being quite small, they need a steady cash flow. The model year cycle, especially when you have a major model update coming, causes wild swings in selling price and demand. Look a the Volt. The demand for the old Volt went completely in the toilet once the new Volt was announced. That's not a big deal for GM; they have many other products.

Tesla, with two models, relatively small volume and one production line can't afford that right now. And so they make unannounced incremental improvements randomly. If frustrates some buyers, but it minimises the "Osborne effect" where people hold off expecting an imminent upgrade. It's not great but it's the lesser of two evils.

When they're larger with more product lines, I expect you'll see them going to more conventional model years.

 

[CapeOne]

Besides asking for make/mode/year, KBB and other sites allow you to indicate options available on the car, such as automatic transmission, AWD, etc. They use the selected options (not just the year) to determine the value of the vehicle.

These sites can handle Tesla valuations just fine by listing out the various options available. If you want to know old nosecone vs. the 'refreshed' S nose, there is an option code for that. Want to know if the S has the old or newer panoramic roof? There are different options codes for those panoramic roofs. How about Subzero package with or without a heated steering wheel. There are different option codes for those packages.

Whenever major changes are made, new option codes are added. KBB and the other sites just need to take those option codes into account when making valuations.

Yes, one way to get around the "all-new" versus "older version" situation would be to have some sort of generic “all-new version” (or whatever identifying label) option value/checkbox. Not the greatest but a possibility. Another way, as I suggested before, would be to modify the model name as something like Model S 2.0, Model S 3.0, etc.

It's not that I’m so much tied to the whole model year thing; it's just that I’ve yet to hear or read any worthwhile benefit for not using them. Nothing Tesla has done with the Model S or X thus far would’ve been hindered by using model years which leaves "to be different" or "to be anti-establishment" as the other answers/reasons. Those, to me, are not worth going against something that otherwise works and would still even work in Tesla's case.

I guess I'm just not as much of a 'middle finger to the establishment' kind of person as some others are especially if going against the establishment/norm has no real benefit or can unnecessarily complicate things. I’m all for being different because it's notably better but not just to be different.

 

[CapeOne]

I believe Tesla can't use model years yet because, being quite small, they need a steady cash flow. The model year cycle, especially when you have a major model update coming, causes wild swings in selling price and demand. Look a the Volt. The demand for the old Volt went completely in the toilet once the new Volt was announced. That's not a big deal for GM; they have many other products.

Tesla, with two models, relatively small volume and one production line can't afford that right now. And so they make unannounced incremental improvements randomly. If frustrates some buyers, but it minimises the "Osborne effect" where people hold off expecting an imminent upgrade. It's not great but it's the lesser of two evils..

I don't know that Tesla's relatively small size necessarily has anything to do with it. Other even smaller manufacturers have easily and successfully used model years for their products.

When they're larger with more product lines, I expect you'll see them going to more conventional model years.

Although I still don't see why they couldn't be using model years already, I do think they may end up going that way in the future. I've heard that opinion from others as well. I guess time will tell.

 

[ecarfan]

Again, nothing Tesla has done thus far as far as updates, how they may or may not market their products, etc. would've had to be different by using model years. Model years wouldn't have hindered Tesla at all. I just don't see nearly enough benefit in 'being different just for the sake of being different' or being 'anti-establishment' when it potentially creates unnecessary complications/problems.

Let me clarify: I never posted saying using traditional car model years would "hinder" Tesla or cause problems for Tesla. I was simply pointing out that Tesla did not use the "model year" approach that all other car companies have used for many decades.

If Tesla isn't going to have model years, then they could at least version the cars so we can refer to them more easily.

Elon has stated many times that Tesla makes multiple production changes to their design every week. Some are very minor, some are quite significant (from the point of view of the customer).

I think that Elon believes the traditional car "model year" concept is outmoded and he sees no need for it. I agree. But it does cause some confusion in the minds of some customers because they are so used to the "model year" approach, where every fall the manufacturers spend enormous sums advertising their "all new" cars to try to drum up interest. It is a marketing gimmick to try to convince buyers that they should replace their car with a newer one. Most of the time the newer cars have only minor differences from cars built a year earlier.

Speaking from my own experience growing up in the 60's and 70's in the US, it was obvious that vehicle technology changed very little from year to year, what changed were the external cosmetics.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...How will we refer to the cars with the "original" 60kwh battery versus the upgradable 60/75kw battery? This car should never have been called a 60. Tesla should have called it a 60.75 or a 61 or something that isn't "60". Consider how difficult it will be to calculate residuals. In a few years, a 60 ordered in May 2016 should be worth a lot less than one ordered in June 2016...

How to tell the old S60 from the new one? By the year: the S60 was discontinued in favor of the S70. If the S60 is a 2013 or 2014 then it is the old one, like mine. If it is a 2016 or newer car it is the new one. Pretty simple.

I would guess that a look at the charging screen will also make it really easy to spot a new S60 because it likely will have a charge level limit that is less than 100%, although it remains to be seen how it will actually be displayed. But if you know that the car has a 2016 or newer VIN it is the new S60.

Not that I would mind some sort of new 60 badge, as you suggest.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

How to tell the old S60 from the new one? By the year: the S60 was discontinued in favor of the S70. If the S60 is a 2013 or 2014 then it is the old one, like mine. If it is a 2016 or newer car it is the new one. Pretty simple.

I would guess that a look at the charging screen will also make it really easy to spot a new S60 because it likely will have a charge level limit that is less than 100%, although it remains to be seen how it will actually be displayed. But if you know that the car has a 2016 or newer VIN it is the new S60.

Not that I would mind some sort of new 60 badge, as you suggest.

The new 60s should also have a new option code showing they really have a 75 kWh battery installed vs. the old 60 kWh battery. Of course it's not always as easy to track down the option codes as it is to look at the screen.

 

[CapeOne]

Let me clarify: I never posted saying using traditional car model years would "hinder" Tesla or cause problems for Tesla. I was simply pointing out that Tesla did not use the "model year" approach that all other car companies have used for many decades.


Elon has stated many times that Tesla makes multiple production changes to their design every week. Some are very minor, some are quite significant (from the point of view of the customer).

I think that Elon believes the traditional car "model year" concept is outmoded and he sees no need for it. I agree. But it does cause some confusion in the minds of some customers because they are so used to the "model year" approach, where every fall the manufacturers spend enormous sums advertising their "all new" cars to try to drum up interest. It is a marketing gimmick to try to convince buyers that they should replace their car with a newer one. Most of the time the newer cars have only minor differences from cars built a year earlier.

Speaking from my own experience growing up in the 60's and 70's in the US, it was obvious that vehicle technology changed very little from year to year, what changed were the external cosmetics.

The "need" or benefit is to avoid creating more problems, confusion, questions, etc. unnecessarily for shoppers, owners, insurance companies, banks, etc. now or in the future. Since using model years doesn’t hinder Tesla’s ability to do business, I don't see why they would choose not use them when it otherwise can potentially cause issues. To me, what Tesla is doing here feels more like a company with some sort of 'anti-establishment' agenda than a desire to do something notably for the better.

 

[Dwdnjck]

Model years require factory shut down to retool. Tesla has also never had enough inventory for a really good end of year sale.

 

[dgpcolorado]

The "need" or benefit is to avoid creating more problems, confusion, questions, etc. unnecessarily for shoppers, owners, insurance companies, banks, etc. now or in the future. Since using model years doesn’t hinder Tesla’s ability to do business, I don't see why they would choose not use them when it otherwise can potentially cause issues. To me, what Tesla is doing here feels more like a company with some sort of 'anti-establishment' agenda than a desire to do something notably for the better.

How hard is it for insurance companies, banks, and shoppers to just use the car year? Is that really so different from a formal "model year"? Every insurance company knows perfectly well what year the car was made from the VIN. Shoppers can check the month and year of manufacture from the door plaque. I don't get the "confusion" involved.

 

[ecarfan]

Since using model years doesn’t hinder Tesla’s ability to do business, I don't see why they would choose not use them when it otherwise can potentially cause issues

Because, as I said before, Tesla is constantly -- as in every single week -- introducing changes and improvements to the cars. Some minor, some major. The changes and improvements are made when they are ready to be introduced, not on some arbitrary "model year" schedule.

Tesla is not saving up all the internal and external cosmetic changes to introduce once a year, they are doing it as a continuous process.

I know it was stated upthread that other car companies make some changes without regarding to the annual "model year" marketing hullabaloo. That is true. But the fact remains they way the other car companies operate is that the vast majority of major changes to a model are introduced together at the start of the traditional "model year".

Tesla decided not to do that so they can continuously improve their cars in significant ways. It is unconventional, and confusing to some people. But since Tesla is selling cars as fast as they can make them, it clearly is not hurting them.

 

[Dithermaster]

Adding to what @Dwdnjck said above, batching changes into a model year requires downtime. The plant gets shut down for days, weeks, or maybe months during this time. Tesla's model is more agile and doesn't require long shutdowns.

I've toured a pre-bailout GM plant, it was an amazing monument to the industrial age. I've toured the Tesla factory, and it is am amazing testament to technology.

Instead of metal and cement infrastructure that define a rigid path for the cars, the conveyors follow a sensor path which is effectively tape on the floor. If they want to change it, they can pretty much just lift tape and put it down somewhere else (I'm sure it's not quite than simple, but magnitudes less work than changing an old GM line). They could conceivable build an alternate line for a process and cut over to it on-the-fly.

Model years are to Windows 98, 2000, XP, Vista as continuous improvements are to web apps, Chrome auto-updates, and smartphone overnight app updates. I'm not saying the latter are perfect, but they are so much better than the former.

 

[CapeOne]

Model years require factory shut down to retool. Tesla has also never had enough inventory for a really good end of year sale.

No factory shutdown is absolutely required for a model year changeover. Inventory doesn't have to have anything to do with going with model years either. Even smaller automakers use model years. Tesla tends to discount their new inventory, which still includes '2015s' right now, more by length of time in inventory and/or accumulated miles. Sometimes quarterly sales needs are a factor too.