Wow, we need to find another way to heat EVs

[physicsofx]

I think the climate in the northeastern US is under represented in the EPA range estimates for electric vehicles. I would welcome a figure that stated something like "highway range" at say 75 mph. The "cold" weather is very often well below 0 C and combined with slush, ice, snow on both the car and the road. These represent some of the worst case scenarios for range that I have encountered. The seat heaters and steering wheel heat work well but leave very very cold feet and can leave a frosted windshield in our area.

If the car is parked outside overnight in temps of 0 to 20 F (not plugged in) and you set off on a highway trip at high speeds, the range could easily be 50% less than EPA rating if conditions are poor enough (this is quite common in my area).

More insulation for the sub zero options package would be desirable for some customers (me). I don't know if using the heat pump would reduce energy consumption while driving at 75 mph when the temperature is 15 degrees F for example. Making the cabin so that leaks of cold air are eliminated and some insulation would help. For now the superchargers are the solution for long trips.

 

[mswlogo]

I agree, even w/o the pun

Maybe the efficiency of these will improve enough to make it worth it. I mean the AC is already a heat pump, don't know how much it takes to 'reverse' where it sends the heat

Can heat pumps solve cold-weather range loss for EVs?

I think the problem is they can’t reverse it because it also keeps battery, motor(s) and electronics cool. They would need another AC unit for a heat pump. Instead they elected to install a cheaper heating element. Which they would probably still need as well for extreme cold and speed of heating the cabin. And running two AC units is probably less efficient than running one. There goes your efficiency savings. Ever notice how little AC impacts summer driving?

 

[coconutboy84]

I’ve got an idea! Why not use a diesel heater AND use the diesel to run the car! Brilliant!!!

Stupid friggin ideas. Don’t buy an EV if you want to use fossil fuel. Period.

 

[jjrandorin]

I think the climate in the northeastern US is under represented in the EPA range estimates for electric vehicles. I would welcome a figure that stated something like "highway range" at say 75 mph. The "cold" weather is very often well below 0 C and combined with slush, ice, snow on both the car and the road. These represent some of the worst case scenarios for range that I have encountered. The seat heaters and steering wheel heat work well but leave very very cold feet and can leave a frosted windshield in our area.

If the car is parked outside overnight in temps of 0 to 20 F (not plugged in) and you set off on a highway trip at high speeds, the range could easily be 50% less than EPA rating if conditions are poor enough (this is quite common in my area).

More insulation for the sub zero options package would be desirable for some customers (me). I don't know if using the heat pump would reduce energy consumption while driving at 75 mph when the temperature is 15 degrees F for example. Making the cabin so that leaks of cold air are eliminated and some insulation would help. For now the superchargers are the solution for long trips.

There are very few places where "75" is the "legal" speed limit, even if traffic flow drives that speed. People do not get their "rated range" (MPG) in gas cars driving 75 or anywhere close to that either, they just dont care because they are used to going to a gas station.

 

[jpfive]

I’ve got an idea! Why not use a diesel heater AND use the diesel to run the car! Brilliant!!!

Stupid friggin ideas. Don’t buy an EV if you want to use fossil fuel. Period.

A more respectful tone would convey your excellent opinion in a better way. Just saying.

 

[coconutboy84]

Out of ****s to give lol.

 

[jpfive]

Out of ****s to give lol.

Understand.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Had both diesel and gas heaters (old VW) in my older ICE cars.
They were terrible. Tended to get terrible smells inside the cars.
Might be better now, but I have bad memories of them.

Obvious solution to high consumption is a combination of pre heating your battery by charging just before leaving home, Using seat heaters (plus steering wheel heaters on newer S/X) not running your main heater so hot (wear a jacket/sweater) and slowing down a bit if you are running out of range.

Driving at higher than legal speeds, running your heater higher than necessary (wearing a t-shirt),then complaining is counterproductive.

When you drive an EV, you need to be aware of it's capabilities.

I have these same issues at home, now that Heating oil and electricity prices have gone up. Don't blast the furnace, wear a sweater and keep the doors closed when it is cold outside. Just common sense to do the same if you have an EV.

 

[Orwell]

The heat produced by the Model 3 that is not being used to directly warm your body is wasted energy. That's why using the heated seats is more efficient.

Taking that a step further would be to wear a heated jacket.

https://www.amazon.com/Smarkey-Cordless-Electric-Heating-Clothing/dp/B015Q5TC7K

 

[Paul Cantrell]

A more respectful tone would convey your excellent opinion in a better way. Just saying.

Yeah, I don't get why some EV people think that being obnoxious is the way to evangelize electric cars. I see this a lot in PHEV discussions - where there is a class of EV people who just can't understand that for some people the choice is PHEV or ICE - that BEV simply isn't a choice right now. So they take an extreme position that any gas used is too much... and people just decide that BEV people are extreme tree hugging jerks and they do the simple thing... and buy another ICE.

I'd much rather see people listen politely, offer polite suggestions, and acknowledge that BEVs can't yet handle all drivers' requirements reasonably... and gently steer them towards a solution that minimises emissions. That might even mean that they might be best served by a (gasp!) hybrid.

As for the heating discussion, there are occasional winter road trips where it would be nice not to have to choose between being uncomfortably cold, and making it to your destination.

For starters, I would like to see Tesla offer a heat pump like Nissan does, but understanding that even heat pumps have cold weather limitations, a cold weather option that includes a small aux heater (gas/alcohol) might be nice for those of us living in colder climates ( and especially for people who can't plug in every night ).

 

[jjrandorin]

Yeah, I don't get why some EV people think that being obnoxious is the way to evangelize electric cars. I see this a lot in PHEV discussions - where there is a class of EV people who just can't understand that for some people the choice is PHEV or ICE - that BEV simply isn't a choice right now. So they take an extreme position that any gas used is too much... and people just decide that BEV people are extreme tree hugging jerks and they do the simple thing... and buy another ICE.

I'd much rather see people listen politely, offer polite suggestions, and acknowledge that BEVs can't yet handle all drivers' requirements reasonably... and gently steer them towards a solution that minimises emissions. That might even mean that they might be best served by a (gasp!) hybrid.

As for the heating discussion, there are occasional winter road trips where it would be nice not to have to choose between being uncomfortably cold, and making it to your destination.

For starters, I would like to see Tesla offer a heat pump like Nissan does, but understanding that even heat pumps have cold weather limitations, a cold weather option that includes a small aux heater (gas/alcohol) might be nice for those of us living in colder climates ( and especially for people who can't plug in every night ).

Having now owning a BEV and still having an ICE, I see absolutely zero place for the in-between hybrid car. its just a bundle of compromises that are kind of awful all the way around. People dont need as much range as they think they do, but for those that do, ICE cars will still be around and they should just buy those.

A BEV is not right for everyone, and neither is an ICE, but a hybrid is wrong for just about everyone in my opinion.

On the other front, I believe that some get frustrated with people posting some version of "I drive 30 miles round trip every day but this car that goes 300 miles doesnt get enough range for me", or What about the 25 road trips I take a year?!?!? how am I going to charge when I do that?!?!?!~


I am not a tree hugger, and did not buy a model 3 because of "the environment", I bought it because it was the best performance car for the money in the price range I was going to spend, for what I wanted, and I can "fuel" it mostly from my existing solar.

I agree there is a subset of people who are extreme on either sides, but would argue that most are not.. but for people speaking "against" EVs in general a lot of the rhetoric is just that. People make nonsensical statements about EVs that are not true on both sides, and it gets tiresome.... on both sides.

 

[dsgerbc]

Don’t buy an EV if you want to use fossil fuel. Period.

Do not buy a CAR if you do NOT want to use fossil fuels. Get a bicycle.

 

[jpfive]

We have those occasional tropical breezes known as hurricanes down here. If you have ever been caught in the rush out of town you can appreciate a hybrid with 500-600 miles of range that does not have to exit the Interstate. I was considering one, partly for that reason, until I test drove a Model 3 in San Diego last summer. At that point it became not 'if', but 'when'. Took delivery in December. Having said that, the complexity of hybrids can also be seen as some pretty amazing engineering as well - but wasteful. Next storm we will just leave early.

 

[Paul Cantrell]

I am not a tree hugger, and did not buy a model 3 because of "the environment", I bought it because it was the best performance car for the money in the price range I was going to spend, for what I wanted, and I can "fuel" it mostly from my existing solar.

Here is where you and I are coming at it from different directions. I feel strongly about global warming, and so I want to get as many people into CO2 stingy transport as soon as possible. So, BEV when that can work for them, otherwise PHEV or hybrid. The worst possible outcome in my mind is when they buy a new ICE. That car will then be on the road contributing to global warming for the next 10-15 years. I'm not saying PHEV and hybrid don't contribute, it's all just a matter of degree.

My daughter commutes to grad school 5-6 days a week, entirely on electricity in her Volt. On the weekend she visits her boyfriend out of state. A Tesla is the only BEV that could reasonably do that trip, but that's way out of her price range ( we paid $13K for a 3 year old Volt ). In a few years maybe used BEVs will be available for those kinds of prices, but for now it was the Volt or an ICE. Given her commute during the week, the Volt works out great, and she burns very little gas ( Volt gets 40 mpg when using the gas engine ).

On the other front, I believe that some get frustrated with people posting some version of "I drive 30 miles round trip every day but this car that goes 300 miles doesnt get enough range for me", or What about the 25 road trips I take a year?!?!? how am I going to charge when I do that?!?!?!~

Yeah, those people will never be satisfied until BEV is mainstream. There's no point in trying to convince them. I agree it's frustrating to listen to them make up silly scenarios...

In any case, I try to be pragmatic about whatever will minimise emissions, including CO2, but there are some people who legitimately have driving needs that can only be fulfilled by ICE at present. Hopefully we can get BEV or PHEV in the near future to solve those needs.

 

[Saghost]

I think the climate in the northeastern US is under represented in the EPA range estimates for electric vehicles. I would welcome a figure that stated something like "highway range" at say 75 mph. The "cold" weather is very often well below 0 C and combined with slush, ice, snow on both the car and the road. These represent some of the worst case scenarios for range that I have encountered. The seat heaters and steering wheel heat work well but leave very very cold feet and can leave a frosted windshield in our area.

If the car is parked outside overnight in temps of 0 to 20 F (not plugged in) and you set off on a highway trip at high speeds, the range could easily be 50% less than EPA rating if conditions are poor enough (this is quite common in my area).

More insulation for the sub zero options package would be desirable for some customers (me). I don't know if using the heat pump would reduce energy consumption while driving at 75 mph when the temperature is 15 degrees F for example. Making the cabin so that leaks of cold air are eliminated and some insulation would help. For now the superchargers are the solution for long trips.

The challenging part of this is deciding what assumptions go into the number. The thing is, with a warm pack and cabin and not plowing through slush, consumption on a long drive is only slightly affected by freezing temperatures, maybe 10%.

But a cold pack and cabin are very expensive, and may double consumption for the first half hour or hour of driving.

I don’t know how you make a metric that’s relevant to most drivers and accurately reflects the various factors involved.

 

[dsgerbc]

so I want to get as many people into CO2 stingy transport as soon as possible.

Transition to biking/public transport is orders of magnitude better for the environment than ICE->EV substitution. The question about how to heat up our Teslas is a blip on the environmental radar not worth bringing up.

 

[Orwell]

Getting back on topic...

This may be interesting for those of you in colder climates...

Tesla Model 3 Sunroof Insulation & Battery Insulation: EV insulate

 

[coleAK]

It’s not the cold on the battery it is running the heat. We have had mostly well below 0F one day above 10F since Christmas Eve. I’m at 50% of rated range however if during my drive to work I turn the heat to low my instant usage is ~250-270 Wh/mi and that is driving on packed snow and ice. I don’t see the increased usage for heat as issue just part of driving an EV, Still way more efficient than 12mpg in my Lexus.

 

[AdamMacDon]

When I see people ordering an SR+ because they want FSD and don’t have the budget for a LR AWD car with FSD, I need to send them a link to this post as a reminder of how valuable the larger battery can be when it’s cold out and you still want to drive fast.

Who in their right mind would choose buying a BETA software that will take years to be finished over +50% energy capacity and double the motors? I only chose the SR+ because I'm not rich and I wanted the $10,000 incentive Canada has for SR+.

 

[Rogue Synapse]

The worst impact of the resistance heaters on range is when it’s super frigid out - which is precisely when a heat pump would be pretty ineffective.