Zendure Superbase-V is a DIY PowerWall starting at $2499 and as little as 41¢/Wh

[wwu123]

I do like the idea that it can provide 1/3 more power, the 240v output of my Zendure is only at 16 amps, just a smidge more power than then 30 amps at 120v RV plug output. I bought the adapter for my 32 amp mobile Tesla charger so I can drive to a dead battery and then just plug the car into the battery and hopefully not need to call AAA. Would be nice if I could charge at 24 amps instead.

The Zendure Home Panel is almost a YEAR late at this point. People paid for it this time last year and they keep shifting back the delivery date from the Kickstarter campaign. I am not sure how code will handle the idea of feeding your main panel from a battery w/o having a whole house switch to cut off the power to the street in case of a blackout. The advantage of the sub panel that lights up certain circuits only that can get power from the grid or from the batts seems like a much easier DIY solution and covers MOST of the needs for battery use.

Perhaps the advantage of feeding your main panel is you can wake up your solar during a blackout that can then feed the battery, although you would need a mechanism to STOP the solar once the battery was full as that energy has to go somewhere. Perhaps it would be like my RV where the power is converted into heat by the battery. I am still considering wiring up my solar sub panel as one of the circuits but really we NEVER have blackouts here, so I would be using the Superbase V to time-shift my solar, since I can charge my car easily with excess solar having another place to store excess should pay for itself over time.

I do like Anker, and if this was this time last year I'd be curious which one to get, but the decision was made for me by the time it took Anker to come to market. I love my two Superbase Vs, the fact that I can wheel them around, pick them up and put them in the car to go fill them up at the local EV charger or take to the cabin in case we have power issues over the weekend (we have LOTS of blackouts on PG&E). If I find I could use more batteries now that I have the two base units I can always get more, up to 46kWhs total, just wait for Black Friday and they have had similar pricing to Kickstarter. My whole system was only $5K and the add on batts are cheaper and lighter. I can even stack new batts on top of the base and wheel the whole thing around. Sadly the base doesn't have the cool top plug to pass power like the add on batts do when stacked, but at least it's not a crazy cord going out the side like the EcoFlow.

Would be curious to check them out, do you have that link?

Here's the link for the Anker kickstarter, it's got more current info than their main site:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/anker/anker-solix-f3800-minimum-effort-maximum-power

Be sure to check out the FAQ's for more technical details, although there are still a lot of unanswered questions.

On the blackout scenario, what they say is in the backup mode (#1) in my previous post, the main panel is disconnected at the Anker Home Panel, and only the subpanel feeding off there will be powered. My suspicion is it uses its two main panel CT's to detect if the grid is up - if not, then it automatic transfer switches from "AC Coupling" to generation mode after cutting off at the Home Panel. So it's still a partial home backup, not a whole-home backup - so you do have to move those backed-up circuits to the subpanel. (For my specific scenario, If I don't need the automated home backup, I can avoid the subpanel re-wiring and just plug in via the PG&E BPTM.)

I was thinking about the home solar scenario during backup mode. They specifically say your home solar can't work, because it's breaker is in the main panel - which is disconnected in backup mode. But what if I say moved the solar breaker to the backup panel? The Anker would generate a pure sine wave, that would probably look like the grid to my Enphase micro-inverters, and allow them to activate. But then could the Anker absorb excess solar generation into the battery? Here's where my electronics understanding fails - I presume it's using a bi-directional AC inverter, is the direction of the inverter set manually, or does it automatically switch direction based on power sources and loads ?. When the Anker generates the pure sine wave, does it have to be in export mode, or is the Anker inverter capable of importing energy INTO the batteries? Curious ...

You were complaining previously about the Zendure inverter losses in UPS mode, have you any more insights on that when used as UPS, home backup, or load-shifting? My concern is the Anker's larger inverter would suffer 2X the standby losses as the Zendure or EcoFlow, esp if on 24x7. It would be nice if say for load-shifting, Anker only turned on the AC inverter for 2 hours to fully recharge, and then for 5-9 hrs during designated peak periods, and otherwise left the AC inverter off for 2/3 of the day.

Also not sure if the AC inverter can be turned off and only run the DC outputs- while typically a standard feature, this Anker seems more designed for larger home scenarios. I currently use a small 200WH power station as my router/modem UPS, running strictly in 12V DC mode to avoid 24x7 inverter losses. It would be nice to be able to use the Anker's 12V DC output (up to 120W) only for efficient DC load shifting, I could expand my 12V use cases by including a number of my aquarium loads.

 

[wwu123]

Actually it looks like I cannot avoid the subpanel with the Anker Home Panel. Their Home Panel kit in Kickstarter says the kit comes with a 100A circuit breaker. My suspicion is you have to put the 100A breaker into your main panel, and that is how they backfeed your home loads in AC Coupling mode. I have no space left in my main panel, so I'd really have to move a bunch of loads into the backup panel just to have space to wire up the Home Panel.

Speaking of, I thought circuit breakers came in a couple of different sizes to fit different brand panels. Are they in fact universally compatible, all breakers fit all panels? Otherwise how can Anker just ship a 100A breaker that will work for everyone?

 

[BGbreeder]

All breakers do not fit all panels.

Circuit breakers are only rated for use in their designated, listed panels.

 

[israndy]

You were complaining previously about the Zendure inverter losses in UPS mode, have you any more insights on that when used as UPS, home backup, or load-shifting? My concern is the Anker's larger inverter would suffer 2X the standby losses as the Zendure or EcoFlow, esp if on 24x7.

It would be nice if it could behave like an ordinary UPS, just pass the power thru when not needed, but I think because the battery can put out so much power and yet it only has the one plug input you can't provide reliable output w/o the inverter. It just caught me by surprise as I have only ever had the normal UPS that charges slowly and mostly passes all the power coming in to the output plugs until the power goes out.

 

[wwu123]

Well folks, it's done, I'm now officially part of the Anker kickstarter! I've been wavering with a month left in the campaign about some residual concerns for my use cases. But a few days ago, one of the 45% off early birds dropped out, and it was for the exact kit with the Home Panel that I was interested in, so I couldn't resist jumping in and claiming that early bird spot. So basically it will be $2200 for the 3.8kwh power station, and $650 for the Home Panel + extras (e.g. $100 value off-the-shelf backup loads panel).

With a lot of reading up about the problems with all the brands shipping in this product size class (Bluetti, EcoFlow, Zendure), I don't actually expect Anker will get things right, certainly not out of the box. Even more so with the Home Panels (EcoFlow plagued with glitches and issues, Zendure a year late). Anker's actually been on quite a tear with their power stations one step down, the 757/767 and Solix rebrands have seen several rapid iterations adding both hardware and firmware features, and generally decent reliability. I think they'll get the hardware pretty right, as it's just the same but larger - however, most of their typical products don't need that complex firmware and software, so it'll be seen if they can get software (not necessarily their strong suit) right over time, and whether they fully understand the key use cases in the "DIY Powerwall" or "off-grid" scenarios.

Based on numerous questions, they've been providing regular updates on the Home Panel, the key thing distinguishing the F3800 from being just a larger portable battery. And today the most detailed one yet:

https://www.kickstarter.com/project...00-minimum-effort-maximum-power/posts/3946180

It is just as I predicted in my last post, you put the 100amp breaker in your main panel, and feed two hot wires (L1, L2) to the Home Panel to supply 240V, for both charging the F3800 from grid or home solar via the main panel, and conversely for discharging the F3800 to supply 240V to the main panel for load-shifting. Two neutral wires (N1, N2) also connected, I assume for feeding 120V loads on the main panel two bus bars (though the F3800 will only charge from 240V via the Home Panel).

Note this is all just for the AC coupling, and three CT's for detecting grid power and home solar generation. For backup loads (optional), a standard backup load center feeds off the Home Panel, and while they didn't elaborate I'll assume it's wired just like a typical manual transfer switch, where you reroute the circuit load wires through transfer switch. Except the Home Panel will be automatic rather than manual - when it detects grid down situations, it will cut off the main panel, and feed the 120V/240V backup panel strictly from F3800. Separate L1, L2, N1, N2 connection points shown from the Home Panel to the backup panel.

The hardware all looks typical and as expected for a pre-production prototype. The firmware logic shouldn't be all that complex, so wonder why none of these companies have so far gotten it right? I'll keep updating follies and foibles here through the expected Jan-March 2024 delivery dates...

 

[israndy]

I haven't looked at the Anker info, but wouldn't they just power the backup panel from the batts and not bother cutting off the main panel? Any power in the backup panel always comes thru the batts be it when it's already powered or time shifted via charging the batts earlier. That would save any weirdness about back feeding the grid

 

[wwu123]

I haven't looked at the Anker info, but wouldn't they just power the backup panel from the batts and not bother cutting off the main panel? Any power in the backup panel always comes thru the batts be it when it's already powered or time shifted via charging the batts earlier. That would save any weirdness about back feeding the grid

Well when the grid is down, they have to cut the AC-coupled hot wires L1, L2 from the main panel, otherwise they are backfeeding the grid as you say - that's the automatic transfer switching (I'm assuming that's how it works, this has not been stated explicitly). And the main panel loads are thus not powered.

So I assume you are talking about grid-up in time-shifting mode, yes, I don't believe they are cutting off the main panel from the backup panel as Ecoflow and (I think) others do their time-shifting. I think they are backfeeding through the AC coupling, which all loads in both main and backup panels are being fed by combination of both grid and batteries, same as how Powerwall works. Because they've stated that if the combined loads exceed the 6000W of the batteries, the grid will supplement - which also means if the combined loads are less than 6000W, the batteries will reduce output to match - but that means it is feeding both main panel and backup panel loads.

I'm not totally sure what you meant, but maybe we just both said the same thing?

Or were you referring to my statement about "wiring like a manual transfer switch", I just meant to be able to isolate it via the backup panel, you have to physically re-locate the hot wire that was in the original load's circuit breaker over to the "generator" side (the subpanel) of the transfer switch, to actually be part of the backup loads.

 

[israndy]

I was thinking of how the Zendure appears to be wired, not that I have one to play with. I believe that there are two sets of 50 amp wires coming from the main panel that feed the Home Panel. The panel then feeds the input circuit on the Superbase Vs so they can change. Then the output of the two SBVs feeds the 10 120v circuits, so although power flows from the mains panel to the Home Panel power cannot flow back and thus out to the grid. If too much power is drawn, say you turn on your Microwave and your Keurig and your Dishwasher and your ... all at the same time, I figure it would have to do intelligent shedding of circuits until there is enough power for those remaining.

But that's just my reading of the information currently available. I hope your Anker will be wired the way you say, like a PowerWall, but it won't be as DIY.

 

[wwu123]

I was thinking of how the Zendure appears to be wired, not that I have one to play with. I believe that there are two sets of 50 amp wires coming from the main panel that feed the Home Panel. The panel then feeds the input circuit on the Superbase Vs so they can change. Then the output of the two SBVs feeds the 10 120v circuits, so although power flows from the mains panel to the Home Panel power cannot flow back and thus out to the grid. If too much power is drawn, say you turn on your Microwave and your Keurig and your Dishwasher and your ... all at the same time, I figure it would have to do intelligent shedding of circuits until there is enough power for those remaining.

But that's just my reading of the information currently available. I hope your Anker will be wired the way you say, like a PowerWall, but it won't be as DIY.

Ah, I get what you're describing now. That could be a better way to do it, but Anker seems to have made some curious design choices with the batteries or the home panel, interesting to compare with the Zendure as they are two of the first dual 120V/240V units....

It seems that when connected via the Home Panel, the Anker charges at 240 V; but doesn't support passthrough charging when outputting 240V, which some may consider showstoppers for a Home Panel. So while connected via the Home Panel, it can either charge itself, or power loads (in the main panel or the backup panel), but not both simultaneously.. It can support time-shifting by charging from grid or solar earlier in the day, and then discharging during peak periods, which are two of the stated Home Panel modes. But it can't be say charged with a 120V or 240V generator while powering the Home Panel during a grid outage.

Which also means they couldn't have routed the backup panel strictly through the battery output. Because if so, once the battery is discharged, the backup panel would have to go dead while the battery is being charged. So while the battery is charging, the Home Panel must be able to keep the backup panel powered directly via the grid.

 

[israndy]

Yeah, there must be some sort of bypass as the batteries are on wheels, so the permanently mounted Home Panel (the Zendure one anyway) must connect the two 50a circuits to the ten smart shedding 15a circuits directly when the batteries are unplugged.

But I have been told I'll get the Home panel in March, June, October, and now December... Who knows what the one I hopefully eventually get will do? Just sick of running extension cords from the SBVs, not classy.

 

[sunwarriors]

I always wonder when I see these portable battery options, do they qualify for the 30% IRA tax credit? I have yet to see a kickstarter comment that they are positive it does. It always points back to do your own research, etc etc etc which to me means, it does if you claim it until you are audited and the IRS says it doesn't. I tried to find it on the Zendure earlier too and didn't see anything back then, but you always notice it is never mentioned in the FAQ or some clear place.

Maybe someone can post any clarity if Zendure had any.

Has anyone ran numbers comparing this to permanent PWs or other permanent options? Whenever I did the math, the savings weren't really that much (I'm going with the more conservative view that it doesn't qualify since it's clearly mobile and not fixed).



Anker posted this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/anker/anker-solix-f3800-minimum-effort-maximum-power/comments

"

AnkerCreator5 days ago
The Residential Clean Energy Credit was recently expanded to include qualified battery storage technology expenditures.

The law defines a “qualified battery storage technology expenditure” as an expenditure for battery storage technology that has a capacity of not less than 3 kWh and is installed in connection with a dwelling unit located in the United States and used as a residence by the taxpayer.

There is limited published guidance available from the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) about the details of what may constitute a qualified battery storage technology expenditure. For example, it is not yet clear what constitutes a “battery storage technology,” nor what it means for a battery storage technology to be “installed” in connection with a home.

We encourage you to do your own diligence and consult with your own tax advisor regarding your tax situation and the potential applicability to you of tax credits, deductions, or other similar benefits.

thanks"

 

[wwu123]

I always wonder when I see these portable battery options, do they qualify for the 30% IRA tax credit? I have yet to see a kickstarter comment that they are positive it does. It always points back to do your own research, etc etc etc which to me means, it does if you claim it until you are audited and the IRS says it doesn't. I tried to find it on the Zendure earlier too and didn't see anything back then, but you always notice it is never mentioned in the FAQ or some clear place.

Maybe someone can post any clarity if Zendure had any.

Has anyone ran numbers comparing this to permanent PWs or other permanent options? Whenever I did the math, the savings weren't really that much (I'm going with the more conservative view that it doesn't qualify since it's clearly mobile and not fixed).



Anker posted this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/anker/anker-solix-f3800-minimum-effort-maximum-power/comments

"

AnkerCreator5 days ago
The Residential Clean Energy Credit was recently expanded to include qualified battery storage technology expenditures.

The law defines a “qualified battery storage technology expenditure” as an expenditure for battery storage technology that has a capacity of not less than 3 kWh and is installed in connection with a dwelling unit located in the United States and used as a residence by the taxpayer.

There is limited published guidance available from the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) about the details of what may constitute a qualified battery storage technology expenditure. For example, it is not yet clear what constitutes a “battery storage technology,” nor what it means for a battery storage technology to be “installed” in connection with a home.

We encourage you to do your own diligence and consult with your own tax advisor regarding your tax situation and the potential applicability to you of tax credits, deductions, or other similar benefits.

thanks"

No one can be positive, since 2023 tax year is the first for the IRA standalone battery credits, and aside from 3kwh and "installed", there isn't more IRS guidance nor will there be any rulings, audits, or clarification til after folks file their 2023 returns and start claiming. It's a bonus if I qualify and get it, but I'm pretty sure my extremely conservative tax accountant would look at a photo of my Home Panel installation and the Anker use case diagrams and consider the whole thing "installed" as much as a Powerwall - he's certainly no electrician nor AHJ inspector.

All I know for sure is that at 132 lbs, the Anker F3800 will not be leaving my premises once wheeled into place. Unlike @israndy, I don't have an RV nor do I have a vacation home to take it, nor do I have a vehicle that I can even lift the Anker into, if I can even lift it at all. So despite it having wheels and can be unplugged, it's not going anywhere, nor do I expect to use any of the outlets except the 240V either plugged into the Home Panel or into the PG&E BPTM, both of which are permanent installs.

In fact, one of my few options is mounting the Home Panel indoors on the opposite site of the wall from the main panel, the Anker F3800 would have to be in that room as well - it will be a huge pain to get it up and down multiple sets of steps into that room. So if it ever goes there, it's pretty much never leaving that room til it flat out dies.

 

[israndy]

So why not get an Enphase or a Tesla Battery? Guarantee your ability to write off 30%?

Zendure has really upped their talk about getting the 30% IRA credit however if you haven't been to their site recently:

whole-home-backup-power-solution

Zendure's mission is to democratize the latest EnergyTech to deliver clean and affordable electricity via devices and services suitable for on-grid and off-grid living.

zendure.com

Still has a disclaimer, but it seems they wanna be sure you'll have that much in liability when they say Talk to your Tax Professional

 

[wwu123]

So why not get an Enphase or a Tesla Battery? Guarantee your ability to write off 30%?

Zendure has really upped their talk about getting the 30% IRA credit however if you haven't been to their site recently:

whole-home-backup-power-solution

Zendure's mission is to democratize the latest EnergyTech to deliver clean and affordable electricity via devices and services suitable for on-grid and off-grid living.

zendure.com

Still has a disclaimer, but it seems they wanna be sure you'll have that much in liability when they say Talk to your Tax Professional

While the backup has benefits that I don't expect it to fully pay back, I do want to use load-shifting to offset some of the costs of a Powerwall. But just not enough ROI during my remaining 10 years on NEM1 to be worth it, plus I'll probably be ready for a new roof, new inverter/panels by then. I myself am hoping/expecting V2H and LFP will become commonplace by the time I'm off NEM1, and would be the most economical solution to make a long-term battery commitment then.

I did get a single Powerwall quote a year or so back, would've done it for the $11-12K Tesla was asking had it not required more solar, which I didn't have enough sunny roof space left to make them worth it - now standalone it's $15K. I've actually analyzed my usage and only have about 3 kwh daily of 4-9pm summer peak usage most economical to loadshift, 5-6 kwh daily during winter peak. If load-shifting summer partial-peak, would be a similar quantity.

So this is basically a 1/4 DIY Powerwall - and it's about appropriately sized for me too. I realize these are not huge $$ quantities, so more to play around with the technologies for 5-10 years for backup and load-shifting, will offset some but probably not all its costs, and gaining some insights into the technology trends. Though the Powerwall already does these things, hopefully the community here is somewhat interested in these insights too, perhaps the same reason you started the thread there - it's certainly clear these smaller battery/charger companies like Anker and EcoFlow have ambition to scale up and directly compete with Tesla and Enphase batteries. (EcoFlow also already has shown off their coming Delta Pro Ultra with 120V/240V and no wheels, strictly for stationary home use and settling the "portable" tax debate)

 

[israndy]

Like the new Bluetti units. Can't believe the Zendure units are the only ones that plug together when you stack them. All these horrible cables between units looks awful. I would rather get a bunch of those rack mounted 48v rack mount batts and run regular positive and negative cables between them than these custom cables these manufacturers put out.

 

[wwu123]

Like the new Bluetti units. Can't believe the Zendure units are the only ones that plug together when you stack them. All these horrible cables between units looks awful. I would rather get a bunch of those rack mounted 48v rack mount batts and run regular positive and negative cables between them than these custom cables these manufacturers put out.

Forgot about Bluetti, I think I tend to ignore them due to all the horror stories about not standing behind their warranties and products. But the new EP800 and EP900 units look nice. I think when they were announced I did fill out the inquiry form for their quantity-limited "free install, try free for 30-day" pilot program, despite it being expressly for Southern California only, so of course didn't hear back.

They're both certainly in this same 120V/240V class, another comparative design choice, they essentially integrated the equivalent of the Home Panel functionality directly into the inverter units themselves, since these are not portable solutions. I think they're doing the EP800 a slight disservice by calling it an "off-grid" solution - they can both be AC-tied to the main panel for charging, it's just that the EP800 can only discharge to the backup loads - which I think is equivalent to the EcoFlow Delta Pro and Zendure home panels.

The EP900 (being "on-grid") says it can backfeed the main panel similar to the Anker F3800. But the EP900 also starts at a larger size and cost, it's really more directly competing with Powerwall - basically costs more than a single Powerwall for the hardware, and approaching Powerwall installation costs. The main advantage over Powerwall is you can just plug-and-play stack more capacity anytime without any permitting or electrical work.

 

[israndy]

Watched a video about installing the Canadian Solar EP Cube, if you don't intend to move your whole house batts and don't wanna pay for all the extra functionality of a collection of portable solar generators this appears to be a good DIY solution. No component is too heavy to move. The stack of batts connects just by putting one on top of another, like the Zendure