I experienced my 1st phantom braking. Last Saturday, I was auto piloting on the freeway at 70 mph. When there was a big bend and slight decline with an overpass, the car began to phantom brake hard. Scared the crap out of me, luckily there was no one close behind me. I have a radarless model y. I can see why the car brake hard, it thought the overpass was sitting on the bend and it will crash into it. Tesla Vision still have a long way to go on understanding the world. Looks like I won't be using auto pilot as often as I like now that I can anticipate trouble spots.
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1st phantom brake
- Thread starter mluu510
- Start date
I'm wondering if I should have my car serviced, as I have a radarless, vision only M3P and on a road trip (~400 miles each way), I experienced phantom braking once or twice every hour or two. My girlfriend's mom was in the car for part of it and prior to the ride, she was so excited and couldn't stop talking about how cool Tesla's are. Afterwards, though the only thing I've heard from her is about the phantom braking.
SalisburySam
Active Member
Sure, try having it serviced. Nothing else has worked to eliminate this problem. Some firmware releases are better than others but the issue has persisted. Ruins the drive for me and absolutely sends passengers/pets into orbit. Good luck.
Your Model 3 comes with Radar. It is not a vision Model 3.
Per the "Refreshed “2021” Model 3 Performance Waiting Room" Thread you took delivery of your Model 3 on April 9th.
Per Tesla, all Model 3 & Y's delivered in May 2021 come with no radar.
Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision | Tesla Support
Safety is at the core of our design and engineering decisions. In 2021, we began our transition to Tesla Vision by removing radar from Model 3 and Model Y, followed by Model S and Model X in 2022. Today, in most regions around the globe, these vehicles now rely on Tesla Vision, our camera-based...
vapor trail
Member
This last week I experienced the phantom braking for the first time as well on two separate occasions while using autopilot. In both instances I think, but am not 100% sure, there was a car slightly in front of my car in adjacent right lane. Wondering if curve of road or slight movement of car in lane next to me tricked autopilot into thinking a collision was about to happen, leading to the braking. No matter what, it's very unnerving and annoyed all the passengers to the point where I avoided autopilot completely the last day of road trips last week. Wondering if one of the recent software updates introduced a new level of "caution" to autopilot behavior -- which I'd gladly give back.
I have seen phantom braking in my 2021 radar-less model 3. I can only imagine this will be more of a problem with radar-less cars since the radar would provide a good indication that a shadow is just a shadow and braking is not required. We'll see if they (we) live to regret that radar removal
I have a Model S that I bought in October of 2020. The phantom braking has been an issue for me for as long as I’ve had the car. It seems to be getting worse lately. So, I entered a service ticket on the Tesla app and they replied right away (by the way, this is the fastest way to get a response for service issues). Anyway, the service rep on the phone basically said that the car is “functioning within design parameters”. Translation: Tesla designed the car to be sensitive with braking etc as a safety feature. Unfortunately, it’s a design flaw and a significant safety issue that any other major auto manufacturer would respond to by issuing a recall. Not Tesla. It’s extremely disappointing that they know this is a problem and they don’t seem to be prioritizing an appropriate response to this issue considering Tesla operates in the luxury class. Basically, their flawed design essentially cancels out their highly marketed feature.
The phantom braking on my M3 is awful. It doesn't happen often but it ruins everything about my ride when my car slams on the brakes on the freeway for no reason. I'm sure it might save me in the future, but so far I've had 12 phantom braking incidence and zero AEB saves. Makes me want to turn all that electronic nannying off. If this is the state of intervention technology, then driveway to driveway FSD is definitely 10-20 years away.
linux-works
Active Member
as a counter-point, my car (radar based, almost 2 years old now) almost never PB's.
what I give the most points for this: I drive where there are more teslas than anywhere else in the world (bay area). my guess is that the constant pounding of the roads by these cars is hammering in that 'this is NOT a barrier, drive thru it, stoopid computer!'. enough m3's (etc) go by this and that shadow bridge that the car gets it into its head that 5000 m3's went by here today and none of them, in manual control, slammed on brakes.
if you live in an area that does not have super saturation of teslas, you wont have this 'road knowledge'. your car wont, I mean.
I bet that's all there is to this.
and if that's how it is, then the current algorithm is doomed since it depends on mapping and previous traversals by many similar cars.
to be honest, one of the reasons I felt comfortable buying a tesla was for this reason; I knew these roads have the best chance of NOT killing me, when I give the car more control. I keep it under a tight leash but so far, it rarely does the wrong thing when I'm on a very well traveled road. I would probably not have bought a tesla if I lived anywhere else; and I'm pretty technical and working in the field. and yet, without the concentration of this locale, I would not have bought into the brand. (I'm not a gambler and I'm not rich, either, so $40k is a lot, to me).
this is not vision based; its 'muscle memory' so to speak, for the cars.
sorry, but I dont think vision is gonna cut it. quote me on that, fwiw.
what I give the most points for this: I drive where there are more teslas than anywhere else in the world (bay area). my guess is that the constant pounding of the roads by these cars is hammering in that 'this is NOT a barrier, drive thru it, stoopid computer!'. enough m3's (etc) go by this and that shadow bridge that the car gets it into its head that 5000 m3's went by here today and none of them, in manual control, slammed on brakes.
if you live in an area that does not have super saturation of teslas, you wont have this 'road knowledge'. your car wont, I mean.
I bet that's all there is to this.
and if that's how it is, then the current algorithm is doomed since it depends on mapping and previous traversals by many similar cars.
to be honest, one of the reasons I felt comfortable buying a tesla was for this reason; I knew these roads have the best chance of NOT killing me, when I give the car more control. I keep it under a tight leash but so far, it rarely does the wrong thing when I'm on a very well traveled road. I would probably not have bought a tesla if I lived anywhere else; and I'm pretty technical and working in the field. and yet, without the concentration of this locale, I would not have bought into the brand. (I'm not a gambler and I'm not rich, either, so $40k is a lot, to me).
this is not vision based; its 'muscle memory' so to speak, for the cars.
sorry, but I dont think vision is gonna cut it. quote me on that, fwiw.
Actually, after not experiencing phantom breaking in my first two years of ownership I am now getting it about once a week last couple of updates. I haven’t been washing my car like I usually do, so maybe I need to check that out.
I read in the manual just last night, it said to clean or inspect the cameras before driving or daily or something like that. Sorry I don't remember exactly.
If you want Tesla to take this seriously you need to report it to the NHTSA Report a Safety Problem | NHTSA
SalisburySam
Active Member
As someone who has experienced phantom braking since delivery over 3 years ago and still does 75 firmware updates later, about all you can do is ensure the cameras are clean and the front radar is unobstructed. Of course that last is only for cars that actually have the radar and a software version that doesn’t disable it. Everything else you can do is a work-around, including (1) hovering your foot over the accelerator pedal and reacting quickly when braking happens, (2) warning passengers before it occurs that it is a strong possibility and that they will not like it, (3) harnessing any pets who also won’t like it, (4) and the nuclear option: don’t use AutoAnything with pets or passengers in the car, especially if you’re not on Interstate or Interstate-like highways. Sadly for my EAP/FSD “investment,” I use #4.
Phantom braking is not a problem if your foot is poised on the accelerator and you're paying attention.
Phantom braking happens, everyone reading these forums should know that.
The only issue is how driver reacts.
If driver's foot is on accelerator, and driver taps the pedal, the braking will slow car down only a few MPH, based on reaction time. It will not go into a skid. Normal speed will be resumed within ½ second
If driver's foot is (foolishly) somewhere else, or if driver isn't paying attention, the car will slow down more, possibly creating a dangerous situation
Fact 1 - autonomous features are NOT perfect
Fact 2 - driver is responsible to take over, including having hands on wheel and foot on accelerator, in case car acts strangely
Fact 3 - see Fact 1
Seriously, it's NOT an issue if your foot is on pedal and you're paying attention. If either or both of these requirements aren't adhered to, well, it's no different than handing the keys to your car to a 16 year old.
Be prepared...you're in control.
Don't think these cars are capable of chauffeuring you around....if you want that, get the Uber app
Phantom braking happens, everyone reading these forums should know that.
The only issue is how driver reacts.
If driver's foot is on accelerator, and driver taps the pedal, the braking will slow car down only a few MPH, based on reaction time. It will not go into a skid. Normal speed will be resumed within ½ second
If driver's foot is (foolishly) somewhere else, or if driver isn't paying attention, the car will slow down more, possibly creating a dangerous situation
Fact 1 - autonomous features are NOT perfect
Fact 2 - driver is responsible to take over, including having hands on wheel and foot on accelerator, in case car acts strangely
Fact 3 - see Fact 1
Seriously, it's NOT an issue if your foot is on pedal and you're paying attention. If either or both of these requirements aren't adhered to, well, it's no different than handing the keys to your car to a 16 year old.
Be prepared...you're in control.
Don't think these cars are capable of chauffeuring you around....if you want that, get the Uber app
SalisburySam
Active Member
Absolutely NOT the case. Regardless of how close your foot is and how closely you’re paying attention, when it happens it is a sudden jerk and there’s nothing you can do about what you and your passengers feel no matter how fast your reaction time. Yes, you can recover quickly, but it’s already happened to the chagrin of the driver and major annoyance to passengers.
This is exactly why so many posters, including me, are repeatedly asking for the ability to turn off the TA parts of TACC and give us the option for dumb cruise control. Not looking necessarily for the car to be a chauffeur, though that is in part what was originally touted for FSD. Just want the same excellent dumb cruise control that has been around since the mid-60’s.
The safe use of a driver-assist system should never rely on you covering the accelerator just in case the system faulty brakes suddenly. When you press the accelerator it tells the car you are in control and certain safety features will be overridden.
For example if AEB kicks in, that reflex reaction to Phantom braking will cancel AEB. If your reaction to sudden unexpected braking events is to press the accelerator you will be less safe. You shouldn't have to compensate for the car's faulty AP.
You may think you are hyper-aware and can tell the difference between Phantom braking and AEB, but reports of people who were saved by AEB usually say it engaged so quickly.
It might not be the best idea to train your foot to press the accelerator for every braking event or green-light alert. Complain to Tesla and/or the NHTSA and get faulty braking fixed.
Highway driving is different than local driving as it’s easier to quickly assess obstacles, dangerous situations, etc.
it’s possible the car can see more than the driver can at a crowded intersection, thus it’s possible the emergency braking can react and prevent an accident before driver can notice the situation.
on the other hand, an alert driver following one or two vehicles, or driving without any cars ahead on highway can easily determine if the phantom braking is warranted, or faulty.
I’d never suggest automatic pulsing of accelerator to override every time the car brakes suddenly, but if there’s nothing in front of car for ¼ mile, odds are the system reacted to something that wasn’t a threat. Further, an alert driver, aware of vehicles behind them, can easily judge whether the risk of braking in front of a tailgater is greater than the risk of braking for no apparent reason. If driver is following a pack of vehicles, they might determine that the car senses something and trust the system.
Phantom braking isn’t 60-0 instantly. The car doesn’t lock wheels and skid. There’s sufficient time during the braking event for driver to assess the situation. I’ve had car three months and had about 10-15 braking situations I didn’t feel warranted (nothing in front on highway). In every situation I was able to override before car was travel speed dropped ~5 MPH
It’s not a big deal as long as driver is paying attention. If not paying attention car will continue to slow, eventually creating a dangerous highway situation.
autonomous vehicles aren’t perfect. They don’t have to be, they just have to be better than humans. Understanding that, driving is a responsibility.
eyes on road, hands on wheel, foot on accelerator, check your mirrors, and you should be okay
if it’s a problem, you should report it. Take dash cam, then press scroll wheel and say “bug report phantom braking”. Set a service appointment, when they get in touch with you, email the cam footage. they’ll follow up with a diagnosis, and alert engineers. Complaining in threads doesn’t accomplish anything. If it’s an issue, report it
it’s possible the car can see more than the driver can at a crowded intersection, thus it’s possible the emergency braking can react and prevent an accident before driver can notice the situation.
on the other hand, an alert driver following one or two vehicles, or driving without any cars ahead on highway can easily determine if the phantom braking is warranted, or faulty.
I’d never suggest automatic pulsing of accelerator to override every time the car brakes suddenly, but if there’s nothing in front of car for ¼ mile, odds are the system reacted to something that wasn’t a threat. Further, an alert driver, aware of vehicles behind them, can easily judge whether the risk of braking in front of a tailgater is greater than the risk of braking for no apparent reason. If driver is following a pack of vehicles, they might determine that the car senses something and trust the system.
Phantom braking isn’t 60-0 instantly. The car doesn’t lock wheels and skid. There’s sufficient time during the braking event for driver to assess the situation. I’ve had car three months and had about 10-15 braking situations I didn’t feel warranted (nothing in front on highway). In every situation I was able to override before car was travel speed dropped ~5 MPH
It’s not a big deal as long as driver is paying attention. If not paying attention car will continue to slow, eventually creating a dangerous highway situation.
autonomous vehicles aren’t perfect. They don’t have to be, they just have to be better than humans. Understanding that, driving is a responsibility.
eyes on road, hands on wheel, foot on accelerator, check your mirrors, and you should be okay
if it’s a problem, you should report it. Take dash cam, then press scroll wheel and say “bug report phantom braking”. Set a service appointment, when they get in touch with you, email the cam footage. they’ll follow up with a diagnosis, and alert engineers. Complaining in threads doesn’t accomplish anything. If it’s an issue, report it
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Haroldo,
I am old, my reactions are slow which is why I lose when playing against my grandkids at anything that requires a quick reaction. I have had my M3 as long as you and have had about half a dozen very dangerous “phantom braking” occurrences. I have learned to dab the accelerator to resume normal function during phantom braking but I can tell you a lorry following me, braked so hard he went sideways trying to avoid colliding with the rear end of our M3. There was no clue for the following driver that the M3 was going to brake and he kept a huge distance between us after that.
I have used cruise control all the time on my previous 3 vehicles to stay within the speed limit. I have never felt the cruise control was trying to kill me. My wife is terrified of travelling in the M3 now. We are about to buy a second diesel vehicle that has normal cruise control.
There was a well publicised accident in Norway where a van rear ended an M3 and a lorry hit the van. TACC was blamed for the sudden braking that caused the accident.
Recently a woman protested at the Shanghai motor show by climbing on the roof of a M3 claiming the her M3 tried to kill her family because of a TACC incident. Allegedly Tesla did not handle the issue very well.
TACC is dangerous and not fit for purpose currently and Tesla do not appear to take it seriously.
Would love to know how long after braking started before driver reacted, if at all.
Not blaming anyone, but pulsing to override can be done ¼ second later, or a full second later… big difference
One second reactive time in a regular car will result in a different outcome, too.
Did you have a TACC (not braking) issue?
What was your experience with service that lead to the confusion that they’re not taking it seriously? Did they not follow up with your complaint?
I’ve found service is extremely interested in thoroughly investigating mishaps, including viewing car logs, requesting complete description of event, and dash cam videos. When service was unable to completely address issue, they forwarded the file to engineering. They took my issue (navigation missing an exit) very seriously
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