2022.4.5 promises non vomit inducing AP stop and go driving in the release notes. But it seems the same to me, am I missing something?

[jdgordon7]

I've been waiting two years for a fix to this and was hoping 2022.4.5 would be it, it wasn't. Does anyone else recognize this major problem? It has made AP unusable to me, and anyone else that gets carsick, in stop and go driving for about two years. Before this major bug was released two years ago AP was, although less polished in many other non deal breaking areas, completely usable and value adding. About two years ago Tesla released what was by far their best release to date. Up to and including this release in stop and go driving each time the car in front of the Tesla would go four or five feet forward AP would accelerate with reasonable smooth speed (slowly) to the car in front of it, allowing a reasonable gap, and then at a reasonable smooth speed (slowly) slow down. This provided a pleasantly smooth ride with no disadvantage other than occasionally some jerk would take advantage of the gap between the Tesla and the car ahead and cut in so they could get literally one car length ahead in traffic. But this was only occasionally, and really not that bad. The cut certainly happened less often than the car ahead pulling forward a few feet before stopping. Perhaps each time the cut happened literally 10 seconds would be added to the drive time, but AP could be used for a smooth pleasant heavily technology assisted driving experience. Since two years ago AP has been unusable in everything other than driving on the freeway when there isn't traffic (maybe 20% of the time it could previously be used).

Since about two years ago AP tracks the car ahead as if it had road rage and someone in the other lane was trying to cut in front of it. Now each time (imagine driving a few miles on the freeway in rush hour, this is literally hundreds of times) the car ahead drives literally a few feet forward AP slams on the accelerator, then after the few feet when the car ahead obviously and inevitably stops AP slams the breaks. If AP is left on this happens over and over again for hours in what I would imagine could be a cut scene from Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey when they are trapped in hell (for those who get the reference, it's pretty spot on).

I would imagine this would be unpleasant for anyone compared to a smooth ride where AP simply averaged the acceleration and breaking and drove a relatively constant smooth speed. This smooth speed would be the actual speed of traffic rather than extreme acceleration and then extreme breaking over and over and over again. For anyone with motion sickness however, this is not simply unpleasant it is vomit inducing and a total dealbreaker. Even if AP was currently level five autonomy currently but couldn't be used without making the driver and passengers vomit, it wouldn't be used and the level two smooth driving release from two years would be far preferable for people with motion sickness than the level five release in that people with motion sickness could use it, so it would provide some value as compared to no value.

Strong acceleration (when there isn't a car stopped a few feet in front of me) is what I love most about my M3, though I would manually put the car in chill mode every time I wanted to use AP, if it helped, but I've tried and it doesn't. Is there some other adjustment in the preferences people have found to mitigate this?

So my question is a multi-part one.

1. Do you recognize what I describe?

2. If you do, do you care?

3. Do you recognize any improvement in 2022.4.5 (the release notes claim improvement).

4. Is there any adjustment to the AP preferences, or any other method, people have found to mitigate this? (chill mode doesn't work)

 

[Dewg]

So my question is a multi-part one.

1. Do you recognize what I describe?

2. If you do, do you care?

3. Do you recognize any improvement in 2022.4.5 (the release notes claim improvement).

4. Is there any adjustment to the AP preferences, or any other method, people have found to mitigate this? (chill mode doesn't work)

1. Yes - I've experienced this myself
2. More accurate to say I understand why it's happening
3. Haven't noticed anything yet, but I also haven't been in extreme traffic in awhile (due to COVID reduction in freeway traffic, which has been nice)
4. No

I think the problem was that the car was too "gentle" with acceleration previously - and people complained that when the car ahead of you took off (which many time happens in stop/go traffic, the Tesla would casually accelerate, pissing off the people behind you who wonder if grandma is driving.

So Telsa swung the pendulum to the other side and increased the acceleration, which works really well in the situation I mentioned, but doesn't work well in your scenario. The solution is hopefully a happy medium, or a change to the neural nets to watch the car in front more closely. If the car in front moves slowly ahead and its speed is not increasing rapidly, then gently accelerate. If the speed of the car in front increases rapidly, and the distance increases rapidly, then accelerate more forcefully.

 

[whisperingshad]

AP speeds up too slow, and slows down to late and makes it break hard(Prime prime dynamic cruise is the same albeit worse).
I use AP EVERY day though, just have to pay extra attention, the lane centering is nice most of the time. Just got the new update the other day and havent noticed change but ill check tonight.

 

[bpnine]

1) Model Y, FSD Beta V10.8 (still): I've been in stop and go traffic on the freeway a handful of times in the last couple of months (post FSD beta) and have never noticed it being too agressive with the accelerator -- if I'm driving with PAX I usually engage TACC (definitely not FSD which is vomit inducing and terrifying to pax) in heavy traffic to smooth out the ride for them.

2) Yes I would care if it was being jerky, for me a huge benefit of TACC or FSD in stop and go traffic is about comfort/fatigue.

If I had to complain I'd say it doesn't react assertively enough for me in traffic and leaves a HUGE gap due to its pokey startup which is bad for traffic density in general and causes folks to rage drive around me or fill the gap from another lane now and then.

PS: It would be cool if various driving 'stances' were on sliders we could adjust for comfort (beyond following distance and 'chill vs agressive'), for example: lane change lateral G limit, delay between blinkers and starting lane change, max acceleration limit, target slowdown max G, bias to one side of lane or other, target acceleration/G from a stop to speed limit, how hard to keep trying (over and over) to change lanes when the pilot has cancelled one, stop-and-go max acceleration or gap size target, etc. I know this is a lot of knobs but I think they could be done so that all possible settings were safe and sane and 'normal' drivers would probably leave them alone unless something bugged them.

 

[jdgordon7]

1) Model Y, FSD Beta V10.8 (still): I've been in stop and go traffic on the freeway a handful of times in the last couple of months (post FSD beta) and have never noticed it being too agressive with the accelerator -- if I'm driving with PAX I usually engage TACC (definitely not FSD which is vomit inducing and terrifying to pax) in heavy traffic to smooth out the ride for them.

2) Yes I would care if it was being jerky, for me a huge benefit of TACC or FSD in stop and go traffic is about comfort/fatigue.

If I had to complain I'd say it doesn't react assertively enough for me in traffic and leaves a HUGE gap due to its pokey startup which is bad for traffic density in general and causes folks to rage drive around me or fill the gap from another lane now and then.

PS: It would be cool if various driving 'stances' were on sliders we could adjust for comfort (beyond following distance and 'chill vs agressive'), for example: lane change lateral G limit, delay between blinkers and starting lane change, max acceleration limit, target slowdown max G, bias to one side of lane or other, target acceleration/G from a stop to speed limit, how hard to keep trying (over and over) to change lanes when the pilot has cancelled one, stop-and-go max acceleration or gap size target, etc. I know this is a lot of knobs but I think they could be done so that all possible settings were safe and sane and 'normal' drivers would probably leave them alone unless something bugged them.

Yes, I wish they would add a "Motion sickness" or "Carsick" Mode so that the many of us that get car sick could use AP. They could also just make it smooth again like it was, but if they don't a carsick mode for those that literally can't use AP in heavy traffic would be nice.

 

[jdgordon7]

AP speeds up too slow, and slows down to late and makes it break hard(Prime prime dynamic cruise is the same albeit worse).
I use AP EVERY day though, just have to pay extra attention, the lane centering is nice most of the time. Just got the new update the other day and havent noticed change but ill check tonight.

What's the verdict?

 

[Yelobird]

Yes, I wish they would add a "Motion sickness" or "Carsick" Mode so that the many of us that get car sick could use AP. They could also just make it smooth again like it was, but if they don't a carsick mode for those that literally can't use AP in heavy traffic would be nice.

What is your set follow distance. Increase it. Never found this to be an issue and use it daily in Chicago rush hour.

 

[whisperingshad]

What's the verdict?

Seems maybe slightly better. The nagging is Horrible though. It wants your hand on upper part of wheel. Super lame. My prius prime adaptive cruise control is better by far

 

[jdgordon7]

What is your set follow distance. Increase it. Never found this to be an issue and use it daily in Chicago rush hour.

My follow distance is already set to seven. This is irrelevant for me though because on my car that setting only applies to light or moderate traffic. In heavy, stop and go, traffic the distance AP allows between me and the car in front is a consistent about five feet regardless of what the follow distance is set to (never measured, but it's about 5 feet). Is your car smooth on AP in stop-and-go traffic where the car in front of you moves a few feet up and then abruptly stops, over and over? If so what modal and production date do you have?

 

[3sr+buyer]

I tried traffic aware cruise control (TACC) on the freeway with light traffic (but not no traffic) with the following distance set to 7 (the maximum).

Even that maximum following distance is too close for my liking, and when it encounters a slower vehicle ahead, it keeps going at the set speed and then abruptly slows down to the slower vehicle's speed, instead of gradually slowing down to match the slower vehicle's speed when reaching the following distance.

 

[M3BlueGeorgia]

What is your set follow distance. Increase it. Never found this to be an issue and use it daily in Chicago rush hour.

Yes, make sure the follow distance is a 4 or greater. It makes a noticable improvement.

 

[Yelobird]

My follow distance is already set to seven. This is irrelevant for me though because on my car that setting only applies to light or moderate traffic. In heavy, stop and go, traffic the distance AP allows between me and the car in front is a consistent about five feet regardless of what the follow distance is set to (never measured, but it's about 5 feet). Is your car smooth on AP in stop-and-go traffic where the car in front of you moves a few feet up and then abruptly stops, over and over? If so what modal and production date do you have?

Then try lowering it. I have a 21 MYP. Traffic or stop and go traffic has never been an issue.

 

[Twiglett]

Seems maybe slightly better. The nagging is Horrible though. It wants your hand on upper part of wheel. Super lame. My prius prime adaptive cruise control is better by far

The car has no clue where your hands are on the wheel and it really doesn't care.
All it needs is a slight turning pressure turning the steering wheel, just enough so you can feel what AP is doing, it doesn't take much to satisfy the sensors.
If you can feel all the little adjustments that AP is doing, then the car will detect you're there.

 

[clydeiii]

Yes, make sure the follow distance is a 4 or greater. It makes a noticable improvement.

I feel it breaks well at follow distance 7.

 

[Huskyf]

Test 2 things for me I make this day one I received my model S in 2018
- On stop and go traffic increase the following distance on autopilot
- decrease maximum speed on TACC when you are on stop and go traffic that give less power of your tesla when they go, more natural

 

[jdgordon7]

Test 2 things for me I make this day one I received my model S in 2018
- On stop and go traffic increase the following distance on autopilot
- decrease maximum speed on TACC when you are on stop and go traffic that give less power of your tesla when they go, more natural

Thank you, lowering speed is a very good idea that I had not thought of. On the freeway AP is automatically set to full freeway speed based on the allowable speed limit, but perhaps if I set it to 5mph that would do it. I will experiment with this. It seems obvious now that you mention it.

Thanks also to those that mentioned following distance. I had thought I set it seven, I remember at one time I did, but I checked and it was on five, I put it back on seven, I'll see if this makes a difference.

I work at home and don't drive that often but the prospect of using AP in traffic (the situation in which I would get by the far the most value from it, and also the situation I've been unable to use it for the past two years) is very exciting. I will report back.

The only snag I expect from this workaround is that limiting the speed low enough to avoid vomit-inducing jumping and then break slamming will create a lot of road rage and honking (since AP will not be able to comfortably catch up with traffic if it accelerated beyond the 5mph for a bit, like if traffic went to 10mph for a few minutes AP would still go 5mph). I guess you could constantly manually catch up, or just chill and deal with the rage. At least newer modals have acoustic glass to help with the honking a bit. I really think the best solution is to have the cameras see stop and go traffic (Like our eyes do) or even without cameras, if the computer senses a complete stop, then moving a few feet before another complete stop, and then moving a few feet, over and over, then it's obviously stop and go traffic, the blind computer that senses speed should be able to know that it's in stop and go traffic. Then when the computer knows it's stop and go traffic smoothing out acceleration and breaking. This workaround could work though, if Tesla doesn't want to do the better solution that would be able to adjust to the ideal traffic speed though.

 

[DrDabbles]

am I missing something?​

Nope. That's pretty much the punchline. They keep making release notes with promises of changed behavior, and the behavior never changes.

I should node that in 2018/2019 they did actually fix some of the worst AP behavior with in-lane ping-pong between the lane lines, which was very much welcome from all of us. Then they added the behavior to swerve away from semi trucks, which made the system intolerable on an interstate with truck traffic. When they removed that behavior, it was another very welcome improvement back to the previous behavior.

 

[whisperingshad]

The car has no clue where your hands are on the wheel and it really doesn't care.
All it needs is a slight turning pressure turning the steering wheel, just enough so you can feel what AP is doing, it doesn't take much to satisfy the sensors.
If you can feel all the little adjustments that AP is doing, then the car will detect you're there.

Yes it does. I tested on long trip to San Diego.

 

[Twiglett]

Yes it does. I tested on long trip to San Diego.

It seems you have a unique car then, maybe worth getting it checked out at a service center

 

[Yelobird]

It seems you have a unique car then, maybe worth getting it checked out at a service center

Maybe he‘s referring to those with a yoke steering wheel.