(4) Powerwalls with 8kw Solar Array cost concerns

[tomguy]

I've been dealing with Tesla for over a year now on a powerwall project for a recently completed home. We are having (4) Powerwalls installed onto an existing 8kw Solar Array. Originally, Tesla quoted me a Main Panel Upgrade fee of $2400 saying that the brand new 200 Amp panel I have is not sufficient for four powerwalls. I argued that for some time and a year later, last month, Tesla came out and looked at the house again. This time, they came back with a revised contract cost for a Main Panel Upgrade of $7875. I'm not getting a clear answer to why the cost keeps going up when this is a brand newly constructed home. They've been telling me is that my solar system is too large and they needed a special panel to handle something of that size.

I wanted to see if others on this forum may be in a similar situation and what Tesla charged you, if any, for a Main Panel Upgrade fee. I'm more upset that I asked Tesla multiple times to come out during the construction of the house to ensure that the electrical panel and conduits were sufficient to install these powerwalls. They told me they had everything they needed and further evaluation or site visits wouldn't be necessary. Now I'm in a situation where they will be knocking out stucco and running exterior conduits from the back to the front of the house when I asked them for what they need to I can have all these conduits hidden. On top of that, they've increased my main panel upgrade fee by over five thousand dollars.

 

[dhrivnak]

Sorry to hear of your issues. It does sound strange as we have 8kW of solar and a 200 amp service including electric heap pump HVAC and 3 EV charging circuits. We have never had an issue.

 

[tomguy]

Sorry to hear of your issues. It does sound strange as we have 8kW of solar and a 200 amp service including electric heap pump HVAC and 3 EV charging circuits. We have never had an issue.

Do you have powerwalls installed also? I agree that my configuration doesn't seem like anything out of the ordinary but charging the cost of a powerwall to change out the panel? I'm hoping someone who's familiar on the install procedures can help provide insight on this.

 

[Vines]

4 Powerwalls plus 8kw of PV is quite a large system and in no way ordinary. Thats 104A of PW plus 40A of PV.

Likely the reason the cost is increasing is because Tesla screwed up costing the upgrade to begin with. Now the extra cost is to rework the design after the fact. They likely have to relocate all of your circuits to a new subpanel, and install a panel with a main breaker only.

Since the Powerwalls are so new, many installers are making mistakes and stumbling through the changing codes. What seemed like a simple install to them, became a bigger deal once an actual engineer looked at it. The sales folks doing the site visit don't always see the whole picture or the technical challenges that can come up.

 

[tomguy]

4 Powerwalls plus 8kw of PV is quite a large system and in no way ordinary. Thats 104A of PW plus 40A of PV.

Likely the reason the cost is increasing is because Tesla screwed up costing the upgrade to begin with. Now the extra cost is to rework the design after the fact. They likely have to relocate all of your circuits to a new subpanel, and install a panel with a main breaker only.

Since the Powerwalls are so new, many installers are making mistakes and stumbling through the changing codes. What seemed like a simple install to them, became a bigger deal once an actual engineer looked at it. The sales folks doing the site visit don't always see the whole picture or the technical challenges that can come up.

That's actually what they were saying also. Someone else I know also installed four powerwalls at their home with an existing 200A panel and 3.6kw solar array. However they weren't charged any kind of fees at all. Originally they were going to charge a MPU fee but in the end they waived it on the installation date. They did relocated all the circuits to a new subpanel and a main panel with main breaker. No fee for that project.

In the end I just want to make sure Tesla isn't making some estimate mistake and gouging me on the installation fee. I'm not comfortable that the price keeps fluctuating between 0-8000 dollars in any given time.

 

[Vines]

I suspect Tesla has been losing money on many Powerwall projects, I have seen the prices they charge and we do the same installations. They are large enough that they can lose money on many projects to get the buzz going, and then ride the wave of excitement through to a profitable price point. It sounds like you are seeing that shift.

 

[SoundDaTrumpet]

Similar situation here. My PW + Solar is half of yours. I was originally quoted $0 and no need for a main panel upgrade (MPU). At the time the price was $2400 back in July 2017. Today the are saying I need the MPU because the combined 80A generation load from Powerwalls (2) and solar (4kW) exceeds the allowable backfeed of 40A on my main lug only (MLO) 200A main service panel. They are asking $3800 for this MPU line item.

Your situation sounds like a lessons learned walk-back from Tesla. I talked to the Tesla Electrical Engineer. / It sounds like you are a large user and most likely cannot simply swap main breakers either because your panel doesn't allow it, unavailable or not field replaceable (factory set), or because your loads are too high. They are pretty much putting in a 320/400A service upgrade. This is truly an upgrade not a replacement which the $2400 was. I asked specifically about what if I decided to add more solar or powerwall in way out in the future. It sounded like I would have to upgrade the upgrade. Not assuring to say the least.

I have PG&E rolling to do service upgrade on a different swim lane while Tesla is spinning. I objected to the new $3800 pricing and asked them to honor the prior pricing for MPU at the time of initial quote in 2017. Is this fair?

The $7875 does not shock me, but I would not be surprised if the $3800 current pricing is built into it. My contractor buddy said the prices are reasonable. PG&E supposedly pays back the homeowner up to ~$1900 for upgrades on the supply side as they really own anything leading up to the house. I would like to know is this being factored into the pricing. This gets the numbers to $5700 for you. Sounds like it's ~$2000 premium for 320/400A after all is said and done. Less $16000-$1800 for increased cost of the larger panel. The panel is double the width and is surface mount.

I appreciate the price you stated as it gives me a data point on what to expect for a service upgrade. What year/month was the quote made for the $2400? I saw this posted once before, but be good to have a contact.

 

[Vines]

I wouldnt assume that this service is getting an upgrade to 400A, since he didnt say so. That 400A upgrade with an underground feed could easily be $15k. With an overhead drop then maybe possible its a 400A upgrade. Could also be installing a true 400A panel with a 200A main and leaving the service conductors the same. This would allow 200A of combined sources (PV and PW). However without replacing the feeds from PG&E its not really an upgrade. Still 200A max can be drawn from the panel, though your backfeed potential does increase.

Long and short is that Powerwall installations will increase in cost as Tesla gets burned and learns the lessons all installers are learning.

@SoundDaTrumpet I'd be surprised that you don't have any main breaker in your main service panel, or somewhere between your meter and the 1st panel. If so then all breakers in that panel are "Main breakers" Technically without a main breaker you can backfeed up to the rating of the service.

As to whether its fair, did you sign a contract? If not then it is not fair for you to ask for the same pricing. Most quotes state they are good for some number or days.

 

[dhrivnak]

Do you have powerwalls installed also? I agree that my configuration doesn't seem like anything out of the ordinary but charging the cost of a powerwall to change out the panel? I'm hoping someone who's familiar on the install procedures can help provide insight on this.

Sorry no power walls yet.

 

[SoundDaTrumpet]

I wouldnt assume that this service is getting an upgrade to 400A, since he didnt say so. That 400A upgrade with an underground feed could easily be $15k. With an overhead drop then maybe possible its a 400A upgrade. Could also be installing a true 400A panel with a 200A main and leaving the service conductors the same. This would allow 200A of combined sources (PV and PW). However without replacing the feeds from PG&E its not really an upgrade. Still 200A max can be drawn from the panel, though your backfeed potential does increase.

PG&E told me (checked with few reps) that the panel rating MUST match the service. (Not really the service conductors). I did ask about going from 200A service to 225A service, and that triggers a change (i.e. upgrade) in their paperwork even though the existing conductors support 225A. A 200A to 200A is a replacement and doesn't need to trigger engineering. I am not 100% familiar with 400A panels with split 200/200A bus.

@SoundDaTrumpet I'd be surprised that you don't have any main breaker in your main service panel, or somewhere between your meter and the 1st panel. If so then all breakers in that panel are "Main breakers" Technically without a main breaker you can backfeed up to the rating of the service.

This surprises many. I have heard of the technical note you said I can backfeed up the the rating of service. I will contact the Tesla engineer about this. Will this explain why they initially said I didn't need an MPU. There may be a few considerations also -- they also said the largest branch circuit is 125A which is less than what I need to backup the entire house. I may consider not backing up A/C.

As to whether its fair, did you sign a contract? If not then it is not fair for you to ask for the same pricing. Most quotes state they are good for some number or days.

I did sign a contract. Does this change the expectation I should have?

 

[Merrill]

Vines, when installing 2 Powerwalls will I need room in my 200 amp panel for another breaker and if so what size breaker would be needed. Not sure I have room.

 

[tomguy]

Similar situation here. My PW + Solar is half of yours. I was originally quoted $0 and no need for a main panel upgrade (MPU). At the time the price was $2400 back in July 2017. Today the are saying I need the MPU because the combined 80A generation load from Powerwalls (2) and solar (4kW) exceeds the allowable backfeed of 40A on my main lug only (MLO) 200A main service panel. They are asking $3800 for this MPU line item.

Your situation sounds like a lessons learned walk-back from Tesla. I talked to the Tesla Electrical Engineer. / It sounds like you are a large user and most likely cannot simply swap main breakers either because your panel doesn't allow it, unavailable or not field replaceable (factory set), or because your loads are too high. They are pretty much putting in a 320/400A service upgrade. This is truly an upgrade not a replacement which the $2400 was. I asked specifically about what if I decided to add more solar or powerwall in way out in the future. It sounded like I would have to upgrade the upgrade. Not assuring to say the least.

I have PG&E rolling to do service upgrade on a different swim lane while Tesla is spinning. I objected to the new $3800 pricing and asked them to honor the prior pricing for MPU at the time of initial quote in 2017. Is this fair?

The $7875 does not shock me, but I would not be surprised if the $3800 current pricing is built into it. My contractor buddy said the prices are reasonable. PG&E supposedly pays back the homeowner up to ~$1900 for upgrades on the supply side as they really own anything leading up to the house. I would like to know is this being factored into the pricing. This gets the numbers to $5700 for you. Sounds like it's ~$2000 premium for 320/400A after all is said and done. Less $16000-$1800 for increased cost of the larger panel. The panel is double the width and is surface mount.

I appreciate the price you stated as it gives me a data point on what to expect for a service upgrade. What year/month was the quote made for the $2400? I saw this posted once before, but be good to have a contact.

That sounds like the exact same story with me. I also asked about if I were to put in additional powerwalls and they said that would trigger an upgrade of the upgrade. I have one powerwall from the latest referral program and seems like it would cost me more money to make it five.

Did Tesla honor the original pricing? For me, I already have a signed contract for the $2400 and am I in a good position to say they need to abide by that price? They told me once they received a signed contract for the $7875 they can schedule the installation soon. Seems like if I don't sign it, they won't schedule install.

 

[cwied]

Vines, when installing 2 Powerwalls will I need room in my 200 amp panel for another breaker and if so what size breaker would be needed. Not sure I have room.

When Tesla installs, they seem to generally move all loads to a separate panel anyway, so you shouldn't need extra space in the main panel. There is only one active breaker left in my main panel, which is a 200 amp breaker that goes to the Gateway.

 

[tomguy]

I wouldnt assume that this service is getting an upgrade to 400A, since he didnt say so. That 400A upgrade with an underground feed could easily be $15k. With an overhead drop then maybe possible its a 400A upgrade. Could also be installing a true 400A panel with a 200A main and leaving the service conductors the same. This would allow 200A of combined sources (PV and PW). However without replacing the feeds from PG&E its not really an upgrade. Still 200A max can be drawn from the panel, though your backfeed potential does increase.

Long and short is that Powerwall installations will increase in cost as Tesla gets burned and learns the lessons all installers are learning.

@SoundDaTrumpet I'd be surprised that you don't have any main breaker in your main service panel, or somewhere between your meter and the 1st panel. If so then all breakers in that panel are "Main breakers" Technically without a main breaker you can backfeed up to the rating of the service.

As to whether its fair, did you sign a contract? If not then it is not fair for you to ask for the same pricing. Most quotes state they are good for some number or days.

For me, I did sign a contract for $2400 back in February 2018 but the delay in powerwall availability caused this issue. Now they are re-evaluating the condition and increasing the fees.

As for a 400A panel, I'm not sure what they are installing but after discussions here, I guess it does make sense that having a large solar and 4 powerwalls would create issues.

 

[Vines]

There are so many factors involved in a powerwall installation, its not really easy for someone to give advice without seeing the actual panels and CAD design in question. Take my advice with a grain of salt. Your installer is the one responsible for your installation, so they need to be the person to discuss actual installation specifics with. If you are interested in a contractor recommendation, pm me.

If I signed a contract, I'd expect it to be honored at the agreed upon price..

 

[Merrill]

Thanks, I’m having a difficult time because I realize there are many factors in the install of the Powerwalls. Without having someone come out and look at my situation it will be hard to know what is involved.

 

[Vines]

Even experienced installers have had trouble figuring the details out, especially as the PV+PW sources exceed about 70A-125A. I'd recommend engaging an installation company which is intelligent and responsive, and getting them to do a site visit to see what the details are. If you have a main panel with a main breaker only, then you are in the best shape possible.

Installations with all the loads in the main panel and no way to intercept the feed between the main breaker and main distribution bus have the highest cost, especially with stucco. Most modern main panels are moving to hard busing, rather than field installed wires between the main and the bus.

Some main panels can take a 4p 200A breaker kit on the bus, then you are better off, since you can leave the main panel intact, use the 100% rule, and just install a 200A subfeed, and relocate loads to an adjacent subpanel. However many panels take only a 100A or 125A on the buss, and that might not be enough for the entire calculated load of a modern home, or might be marginal. For those cases, it probably makes good sense to ditch your largest loads in the main panel and off the backup system, and land that 125A on the bus for the loads to be backed up. As long as you don't have more nameplate rated breakers than the bus rating, you are compliant with the 100% rule. So for instance maybe you land a 125A on the bus for the main backup system, then leave the 40A and 30A breakers for the oven and AC on the main distribution bus. Total 195A, so compliant with 705.12.D.2.3.c (100% rule)

 

[mswlogo]

Isn't 4 PowerWalls a bit overkill with an 8kW PV? I would think 2 would be more than enough.
The ROI on 4 PowerWalls I bet would be over the life span of a PowerWall.

 

[Vines]

As to the payback question, depends heavily on on your power bill and use profile, TOU rates can be crazy on peak times. 4 PW can mostly charge each good sunny day with 8k PV, then discharge during peak times and avoid the worst of the TOU charges. Not to mention that the 30% tax credit and SGIP both reduce the upfront costs of your system. Super peak here in California can be $0.35-0.46 per kw/h and off peak is $0.18-0.27 Simply shifting your biggest usage from the peak to off peak can make a huge difference.
SGIP rebate levels are variable, but currently about $8k for 2 Powerwalls for us. The financials are decent, especially when considering that backup power has some intrinsic value.

 

[Merrill]

As to the payback question, depends heavily on on your power bill and use profile, TOU rates can be crazy on peak times. 4 PW can mostly charge each good sunny day with 8k PV, then discharge during peak times and avoid the worst of the TOU charges. Not to mention that the 30% tax credit and SGIP both reduce the upfront costs of your system. Super peak here in California can be $0.35-0.46 per kw/h and off peak is $0.18-0.27 Simply shifting your biggest usage from the peak to off peak can make a huge difference.
SGIP rebate levels are variable, but currently about $8k for 2 Powerwalls for us. The financials are decent, especially when considering that backup power has some intrinsic value.

I assume that is with someone other than Tesla doing the install, it is my understanding that they are capped out on the SGIP rebate. Do you know what step PG&E is doing currently.