.48 feels like AP2 finally passed AP1

[chillaban]

And speaking of M3s - last week I went to Austin to pick up the one I bought for my sister. I put a few hundred miles on it and am happy to report that it's EXCELLENT. Not sure what I was expecting but I am really, really happy with it.

And AP on M3 is great. I was kind of confused at first because it seemed more stable than my MS, but later I realized that being smaller it has more visible margin and probably just feels more comfortable because of that. It probably moves around about the same amount. The MS is wide enough that judging distance on the passenger side can be challenging but the M3 seems to be less so. In any case I had no problems using it in and around Austin.

I remember a similar experience going from an A6 to an A3 with their L2 ADAS. The A3 just felt more comforting, and it was a combination of the car being smaller and being more nimble so you felt like it had more of an ability to stop on a dime if you needed to.

The S/X are giant cars, and really wide too. It really does not feel like it has much margin to either side for error, which makes AP's job even harder.

 

[buttershrimp]

Ok! New record! Today AP2 did LA to SF with no forced disengagements on 18.2. That's something I've not managed on any earlier version, or on AP1, in maybe 25 previous runs over the last couple of years.

And the wipers worked fine, if anyone was wondering. There was some crazy rain about midway. Road spray was dropping visibility down to maybe 200 feet with everything else in whiteout but AP2 seemed to have no problems.

And I saw truckloads of Model 3s heading down to LA.
View attachment 275792

I'm looking forward to 18.2 but I did manage a 45 mile stretch around Austin today, 3 separate highways (north mopac to east 45 to south sh-130) circle without any forced disengagements, using only lane change and convenient overpasses.... lots of crazy rain too but handled it well, not bad at all.

 

[Joe F]

I just put a thread up in the MS driving dynamics with a video showing AP2 and auto wiper (or not ) action using Rain-X. It's the main reason auto wipers don't matter to me.

 

[Need]

And speaking of M3s - last week I went to Austin to pick up the one I bought for my sister. I put a few hundred miles on it and am happy to report that it's EXCELLENT. Not sure what I was expecting but I am really, really happy with it.

And AP on M3 is great. I was kind of confused at first because it seemed more stable than my MS, but later I realized that being smaller it has more visible margin and probably just feels more comfortable because of that. It probably moves around about the same amount. The MS is wide enough that judging distance on the passenger side can be challenging but the M3 seems to be less so. In any case I had no problems using it in and around Austin.

Do you get a lot of "put your hands on the wheel" warnings even when your hands are on the wheel? I got a lot of those on EAP (about once every 5 to 10 minutes), but now I have over 1000 miles on my loaner MS with AP1, I got that put your hand on the wheel exactly 3 times and 1 of those I actually had my hands off the wheel. In a few days I will have more miles put on the loaner car than on my own car.

And I do think EAP moves around the lane a lot less than AP1, not because M3 is smaller. My MX is bigger than the MS and it moves a lot less in the lane than the MS AP1. It's not like AP1 moves around a lot, but every so often, I will find the car not centered and doesn't seem like there is a reason for it.. but it will correct within seconds.

 

[jimmy_d]

Do you get a lot of "put your hands on the wheel" warnings even when your hands are on the wheel? I got a lot of those on EAP (about once every 5 to 10 minutes), but now I have over 1000 miles on my loaner MS with AP1, I got that put your hand on the wheel exactly 3 times and 1 of those I actually had my hands off the wheel. In a few days I will have more miles put on the loaner car than on my own car.

And I do think EAP moves around the lane a lot less than AP1, not because M3 is smaller. My MX is bigger than the MS and it moves a lot less in the lane than the MS AP1. It's not like AP1 moves around a lot, but every so often, I will find the car not centered and doesn't seem like there is a reason for it.. but it will correct within seconds.

Good question, but I don't have a good answer. How often I get 'hands on wheel' warnings on MS AP1 and AP2 depends on how I hold the wheel and what the road conditions are like. On a long straight road I get them a lot if I hold the wheel such that I'm not generating any steady torque on it; for instance if the weight of my arm in being supported by a knee or the door, or if I'm hanging my hand from the bottom of the wheel. My GF likes to drive with her 'minding hand' propped up on one knee and she gets a lot of warnings. But if I'm hanging a hand from the wheel off center I don't get any warnings, and if the road has a decent number of sweeping curves I also don't get warnings.

On the M3 I didn't get any warnings the first couple of days, to the point where I was wondering what they look like in the M3 user interface, but my sister managed to get one within 10 minutes of her first drive with it. She was doing one hand on the wheel with her arm propped on the door - and I think she was touching the wheel pretty gingerly. But then I started getting them a lot after the first couple of days, though not dramatically worse than my MS I'd say. My guess is that I was getting more comfortable with the car after a couple of days of driving and was being more relaxed with how I managed it while on AP, and maybe not putting much torque on the wheel? Not sure.

The wheel on the M3 is a lot smaller than the wheel on the MS and I was wondering if maybe it takes a bit more weight to signal the presence of your hand since the smaller wheel radius turns a similar amount of weight into less torque.

As a total aside, when I first had AP and I would get the warnings I would try to signal that I had my hands on the wheel by jiggling the steering wheel, and it didn't work very well. I don't know if anyone else here makes that mistake, but I've seen other people do the same thing when driving my car so it can't be all that rare a misunderstanding. I guess I assumed that the jiggling motion would be more noticeable but that seems to be incorrect. Now I put a steady force on the wheel and it always cancels the warning after about one second.

 

[croman]

On 2018.12 (HW2), I engaged AP behind a car at a red light at a 4 way intersection with traffic lights and protected turns. I was turning left as was the car in front (in a left only lane). After light turned green, I allowed the car to try to follow the car in front. Turn is onto a 4 lane local road from a 2 lane feeder road. The car tracked the car in front and completed the left turn with only a slight left-right jerk at the halfway point of the turn (but it kept going with my nudging).

That is the first intersection turn that AP has completed. 10.4 got close a couple times but I would have to disengage after the lead car was halfway through the turn (car would stop turning and lunge forward as if not turning). This happened even with 3 way intersections where the road stopped going forward (so car had to turn).

I've not been able to succeed with this at any other intersection or any other time (did perfect 3/3 at only this particular left turn, fails on the right turn which should be easier but is a sharper angle).

Also, way back on 2017.50.3 my car slowed for a deer that jumped into the road (on AP at 32mph). The deer was about 150m ahead and the car slowed from 32mph to about 24mph before I hit the brakes (in case other deer were hiding in the ditch near the road protected by shrubs or whatever).

So score 2 for AP2 but no consistency. With 10.4 another deer popped out and the car didn't slow ( I also didn't give it an opportunity because I love my car and deer come in droves around here).

Just 2 anecdotal experiences. Sorry to OP if OP meant to reserve this thread for his experiences (which have recently gone into other threads).

 

[croman]

 

[jimmy_d]

On 2018.12 (HW2), I engaged AP behind a car at a red light at a 4 way intersection with traffic lights and protected turns. I was turning left as was the car in front (in a left only lane). After light turned green, I allowed the car to try to follow the car in front. Turn is onto a 4 lane local road from a 2 lane feeder road. The car tracked the car in front and completed the left turn with only a slight left-right jerk at the halfway point of the turn (but it kept going with my nudging).

That is the first intersection turn that AP has completed. 10.4 got close a couple times but I would have to disengage after the lead car was halfway through the turn (car would stop turning and lunge forward as if not turning). This happened even with 3 way intersections where the road stopped going forward (so car had to turn).

I've not been able to succeed with this at any other intersection or any other time (did perfect 3/3 at only this particular left turn, fails on the right turn which should be easier but is a sharper angle).

Also, way back on 2017.50.3 my car slowed for a deer that jumped into the road (on AP at 32mph). The deer was about 150m ahead and the car slowed from 32mph to about 24mph before I hit the brakes (in case other deer were hiding in the ditch near the road protected by shrubs or whatever).

So score 2 for AP2 but no consistency. With 10.4 another deer popped out and the car didn't slow ( I also didn't give it an opportunity because I love my car and deer come in droves around here).

Just 2 anecdotal experiences. Sorry to OP if OP meant to reserve this thread for his experiences (which have recently gone into other threads).

Wow. Thanks for sharing that. Given the total lack of lane guidance in the intersection and the clear forward path across the intersection to matching lanes on the other side I'd say this definitively shows that 18.12 will prioritize the lead car under some circumstances.

Am curious about whether the lead car was blue in your display during this maneuver. Also - can you give an estimate of follow distance to the lead car and what kind of vehicle it was? I'm wondering if it's possible that the other side of the intersection was blocked from the camera's FOV during the first half of the maneuver.

This is almost as good as the video of 10.4 following a cone-delimited lane diversion in terms of what it tells us is being baked into the system.

 

[croman]

Wow. Thanks for sharing that. Given the total lack of lane guidance in the intersection and the clear forward path across the intersection to matching lanes on the other side I'd say this definitively shows that 18.12 will prioritize the lead car under some circumstances.

Am curious about whether the lead car was blue in your display during this maneuver. Also - can you give an estimate of follow distance to the lead car and what kind of vehicle it was? I'm wondering if it's possible that the other side of the intersection was blocked from the camera's FOV during the first half of the maneuver.

This is almost as good as the video of 10.4 following a cone-delimited lane diversion in terms of what it tells us is being baked into the system.

No blue but I also wasn't watching the IC that closely (the usual AP move, prior to 10.4, was to lose the lead car at about 1/2 through the turn in an intersection and to bolt forward). I limit that risk by setting AP to 20mph, so my car doesn't lurch out of control. I have only seen very brief blue car glimpses in 2018.10.4 through very large intersections. None in 2018.12. I owe to @AnxietyRanger to report any blue car sightings after I documented AP2 clearly did it on earlier builds.

This particular turn was only a 75 degree turn and I think that was the difference. Also, the car had 2 lanes from which to acquire. It seized on the outside lane (even less sharp of a turn). The lead car actually turned into the first lane (inside lane). So it didn't perfectly follow the lead car either. Finally, the opposing lanes were out of view as it followed the lead car into the turn (so it couldn't reacquire the opposite lane lines or try to go down the wrong way on the other side of the street). In the end, this is the only intersection where this turn works and only turning left and it always takes the outside lane vs. whatever the lead car actually does. It has also failed several times in the same conditions and I am unable to ascertain why it succeeds and why it fails. If I ever get a passenger I will try to document it.

In the meanwhile, I also see lots of cross traffic detection with 2018.12. I coasted to a red light and saw the IC tracking all the cars crossing the intersection (they appeared as cars oriented incorrectly but they whizzed by across the IC in the correct direction and approximated the movement well). This was a super busy intersection so it was displaying 3-4 cars constantly whizzing across. It was insane. The IC also shows cars turning and going into the neighboring graphics (like into the Nav map or power semicircle). I don't really recall that happening with regularity earlier. Occasionally if the lead car turned into a driveway I've seen it (it continued tracking the car as a dark gray car).

Anyone else willing to try some turning that has a GoPro? @buttershrimp ?

 

[buttershrimp]

I will definitely do that! I just need an update and I’m on 10.4 ... it sounds like it’s tracking cars in snappier fashion in the IC. It seems that something big is about to happen with AP, or maybe I’m just psyched to have beaten the June 2018 deadline I had for a serious leap forward which 10.4 delivered ... either way, go pro time for sure

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I will definitely do that! I just need an update and I’m on 10.4 ... it sounds like it’s tracking cars in snappier fashion in the IC. It seems that something big is about to happen with AP, or maybe I’m just psyched to have beaten the June 2018 deadline I had for a serious leap forward which 10.4 delivered ... either way, go pro time for sure

In the tests we did with 2018.10.4, it failed to track cars as it did in earlier versions. It didn't highlight them as blue in the IC and didn't follow them through intersections that it could previously handle easily when following a lead car. Other than that 2018.10.4 and 2018.12 have been great improvements.

 

[croman]

In the tests we did with 2018.10.4, it failed to track cars as it did in earlier versions. It didn't highlight them as blue in the IC and didn't follow them through intersections that it could previously handle easily when following a lead car. Other than that 2018.10.4 and 2018.12 have been great improvements.

Definitely seeing cars tracked better since 2018.10.4 than ever. It even is accidentally tracking cars that once were lead cars but shift lanes (car still appears but changes from light gray to dark gray). It maintained tracking 2 cars (in different lanes) for about 2 minutes before the non-lead car just disappeared (but later reappeared briefly when it slowed). So it remembered that car. I can't imagine why, 10 weeks later, we still do not have cars appearing in all lanes like AP1. The system is ready.

Also it consistently notices parked cars and stopped cars that it never was able to see before. I am quite pleased but I want features to use this added ability.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Definitely seeing cars tracked better since 2018.10.4 than ever. It even is accidentally tracking cars that once were lead cars but shift lanes (car still appears but changes from light gray to dark gray). It maintained tracking 2 cars (in different lanes) for about 2 minutes before the non-lead car just disappeared (but later reappeared briefly when it slowed). So it remembered that car. I can't imagine why, 10 weeks later, we still do not have cars appearing in all lanes like AP1. The system is ready.

Also it consistently notices parked cars and stopped cars that it never was able to see before. I am quite pleased but I want features to use this added ability.

Our cars (Model S 75D, S 90D and S 100D) are no longer able to follow lead cars through the intersection we've been testing for nearly the past year. Previous versions had no problem following a tracked car through the intersection. Our cars did have problems with the intersection when no lead car was present in current and previous versions. This intersection is on a two lane highway where the southbound lane changes from one lane to have a left and right turn lane as well as the lane which continues south. Before 2018.10.4, our cars would follow a lead car down the continuing lane. Without a lead car (in previous versions) and with or without a lead car in 2018.10.4, our cars always dart to the left turn lane instead of continuing south in the main lane of traffic.

I have noticed that other cars (parked or moving) are being tracked better in 2018.10.4.

 

[Zloy]

No blue but I also wasn't watching the IC that closely (the usual AP move, prior to 10.4, was to lose the lead car at about 1/2 through the turn in an intersection and to bolt forward). I limit that risk by setting AP to 20mph, so my car doesn't lurch out of control. I have only seen very brief blue car glimpses in 2018.10.4 through very large intersections. None in 2018.12. I owe to @AnxietyRanger to report any blue car sightings after I documented AP2 clearly did it on earlier builds.

This particular turn was only a 75 degree turn and I think that was the difference. Also, the car had 2 lanes from which to acquire. It seized on the outside lane (even less sharp of a turn). The lead car actually turned into the first lane (inside lane). So it didn't perfectly follow the lead car either. Finally, the opposing lanes were out of view as it followed the lead car into the turn (so it couldn't reacquire the opposite lane lines or try to go down the wrong way on the other side of the street). In the end, this is the only intersection where this turn works and only turning left and it always takes the outside lane vs. whatever the lead car actually does. It has also failed several times in the same conditions and I am unable to ascertain why it succeeds and why it fails. If I ever get a passenger I will try to document it.

In the meanwhile, I also see lots of cross traffic detection with 2018.12. I coasted to a red light and saw the IC tracking all the cars crossing the intersection (they appeared as cars oriented incorrectly but they whizzed by across the IC in the correct direction and approximated the movement well). This was a super busy intersection so it was displaying 3-4 cars constantly whizzing across. It was insane. The IC also shows cars turning and going into the neighboring graphics (like into the Nav map or power semicircle). I don't really recall that happening with regularity earlier. Occasionally if the lead car turned into a driveway I've seen it (it continued tracking the car as a dark gray car).

Anyone else willing to try some turning that has a GoPro? @buttershrimp ?

Even though I've not driven it a lot yet, I've noticed similar changes with 2018.12. Much more cars on the IC. Was surprised to see cars crossing an intersection, although they were depicted incorrectly. I also noticed the cars depicted are being coloured a bit differently compared to 10.4.

 

[croman]

Our cars (Model S 75D, S 90D and S 100D) are no longer able to follow lead cars through the intersection we've been testing for nearly the past year. Previous versions had no problem following a tracked car through the intersection. Our cars did have problems with the intersection when no lead car was present in current and previous versions. This intersection is on a two lane highway where the southbound lane changes from one lane to have a left and right turn lane as well as the lane which continues south. Before 2018.10.4, our cars would follow a lead car down the continuing lane. Without a lead car (in previous versions) and with or without a lead car in 2018.10.4, our cars always dart to the left turn lane instead of continuing south in the main lane of traffic.

I have noticed that other cars (parked or moving) are being tracked better in 2018.10.4.

Wow. I use AP for everything, all the time. Local, rural, highway, etc. If it says I can activate it, I usually do. I have only had 2 issues through intersections. Once it took me towards opposing traffic (deactivated once it drifted towards concrete median area) (was a 4 lane road with only lanes (so 6 wide at intersection, deactivated when it drifted into intersection past only lane).

Otherwise solid. Hopefully you see improvement in the next builds.

 

[croman]

Even though I've not driven it a lot yet, I've noticed similar changes with 2018.12. Much more cars on the IC. Was surprised to see cars crossing an intersection, although they were depicted incorrectly. I also noticed the cars depicted are being coloured a bit differently compared to 10.4.

Yes the angle of the cars is wrong but they move correctly across the IC. The tracking is quite good.

 

[banned-66611]

On 2018.12 (HW2), I engaged AP behind a car at a red light at a 4 way intersection with traffic lights and protected turns. I was turning left as was the car in front (in a left only lane). After light turned green, I allowed the car to try to follow the car in front. Turn is onto a 4 lane local road from a 2 lane feeder road. The car tracked the car in front and completed the left turn with only a slight left-right jerk at the halfway point of the turn (but it kept going with my nudging).

Wow. So you are saying they have just barely got it to follow a lead vehicle through a turn, and we are 1/3rd of the way through 2018.

Seems like they are further behind than than many thought.

 

[crashvt]

I have an AP1 car and recently had an AP2 loaner with 2018.14 and AP2 blows away AP1 now. I was able to use it on roads that I couldn't use it with AP1. Holds the lane great. Now I want to upgrade to an AP2 car.

 

[croman]

I have an AP1 car and recently had an AP2 loaner with 2018.14 and AP2 blows away AP1 now. I was able to use it on roads that I couldn't use it with AP1. Holds the lane great. Now I want to upgrade to an AP2 car.

It's been a long 16 months. But ap1 still does things AP2 can't. I think the future is good hopefully.

 

[croman]

Wow. So you are saying they have just barely got it to follow a lead vehicle through a turn, and we are 1/3rd of the way through 2018.

Seems like they are further behind than than many thought.

Yes, but I think they are closer now than ever before.