Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register
  • The final cut of the 9th episode of the Tesla Motors Club Podcast, featuring Chad Schwitters, the former president of Plug In America, is now available. You can watch it now on YouTube or listen to it on all major podcast networks.

A post nobody asked for: How I'd handle the FSD problem (features, HW upgrades) for early adopters

run-the-joules

Turgid Member
Aug 13, 2017
3,785
7,364
SF Bay
There's been an uptick in posts from people (like me) who are unhappy with the FSD situation and how Tesla has been handling it to date, and most of us are just sort of venting, but the real question is: what can Tesla to do fix it?

If Tesla said "Ok fine, you get to pick a solution that has to please as many people as possible and everyone still mad afterwards gets to blame you", here's what I came up with after I actually sat down and thought about this a bit.

It's not completely perfect, and it's very very very far from what's best for Tesla's bottom line, but it's what I think is The Right Thing To Do® in light of all the broken promises, misleading communications, and so forth.



Customers with leases:
  1. Anyone who leased a Tesla with FSD and took delivery before 11:59pm on 12/31/2017 Pacific time gets free FSD for life (tied to the registered customer, not their account, with verification whenever a new vehicle is acquired to avoid shenanigans with accounts being transferred to others) on one leased Tesla at a time for as long as they maintain continuous leases (with reasonable exceptions for delivery delays, etc between cars). If they decide to buy one and stop leasing, it will also get FSD for free but that ends the gravy train.
  2. Anyone who leased a Tesla with FSD at delivery after people in (1.) but before the FSD price drop in February 2019 gets FSD for free on their next leased Tesla, and 2,000 miles of non-expiring Supercharger credit on both their current car and the next one.
  3. If a vehicle was delivered without FSD but the customer added it after delivery, the benefits applied are based on the time FSD was added, not when the vehicle was delivered.

Purchases:
  1. Anyone who purchased FSD for a non-leased vehicle in the same timeframe as Leases (1.) gets a lifetime FSD that can be used on one car at a time, with a process to transfer to a newly-purchased vehicle from Tesla (cannot transfer to used vehicles, nor between other vehicles they may already own).
  2. Anyone who purchased FSD for a non-leased vehicle in the same timeframe as Leases (2.) gets a one-time free FSD transfer to a new Tesla vehicle purchased any time before 1/1/2025, and 2,000 miles of non-expiring supercharging credit for both their current vehicle and the vehicle to which they add FSD.
Special Cases For Purchased Cars:

MCU1 customers:
  • Rumor on the street is that HW 2.5 + MCU1 vehicles may not be able to be upgraded to HW3
  • If an MCU2 upgrade is needed to implement HW3 and it can be done in a practical sense, they should do it. It's that simple, because it's the right thing to do. If they need to raise the FSD price for MCU1 cars that don't yet have it purchased, I think it's perfectly OK for them to do so, but those who already paid do so in good faith.
HW2.0 customers:

We don't yet know what's going to happen with HW2.0 customers since they've got more than just computer differences to account for.

If it's determined that it's genuinely impractical to actually do the upgrade, which might require replacement of cameras, wiring harness, and god knows what else, Tesla should offer the owner their choice of one of the following:
  1. Full refund for FSD + interest + free FSD on their next Tesla
  2. An *extremely* generous trade-in credit towards a preowned HW2.5 or HW3 Tesla, which will include FSD and have the computer upgraded before delivery if needed. When I say "extremely generous", I mean it. They shouldn't be paying out of pocket for this, and the car they get should be quite a bit newer and better than theirs. If the customer does this, it'll be treated as if it were the car s/he took delivery of originally for date-based stuff above.
  3. A well-above-market-value-but-not-quite-as-totally-bonkers-as-option-2 trade-in credit towards a new Tesla, which will include FSD for free and any other benefits based on the date of purchase above.

As you can see, most of these solutions are based on the idea of keeping customers as customers, and in many cases, keeping them as long-term repeat buyers. I'm not a business genius, or a financial wizard so maybe this is the sort of thing that might kill the company if they actually did it, but if I put myself in the shoes of someone in each of those categories, these are the sort of solutions I feel like I'd accept and feel pretty good about.



What do you folks think? Fair? Too much? Too little? Viable? Completely impossible raving of a madman? Really interested in a discussion on this.
 

run-the-joules

Turgid Member
Aug 13, 2017
3,785
7,364
SF Bay
I bought FSD for $3K on top of $5K for EAP. No offense, but these seem like solutions in search of a problem.

Yes, so did I, but I didn't lease my car and return it 3 years later with no benefit for having paid for FSD. That situation is very real for customers at this point.

Moreover, my car is at least MCU2 + HW2.5, so it's a fairly straightforward upgrade path when (or if) it comes. Again, not the situation for tens of thousands of earlier adopters.
 

Dr. J

Active Member
Aug 23, 2017
1,477
2,735
Fort Worth, Texas
Yes, so did I, but I didn't lease my car and return it 3 years with no benefit for having paid for FSD. That situation is very real for customers at this point.
That is a fair point. For those, justice would be a refund of the FSD-related deferred revenue that Tesla has on the books for their vehicle as of the end of the lease. I assume that is a calculable figure.
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: Tesomega

diplomat33

Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Aug 3, 2017
9,303
13,262
Terre Haute, IN USA
This is more about the much earlier buyers, dating back to 3 years ago, many of whom are facing a very uncertain outcome.

Well, I think your plan is way too complicated. Also free FSD for life is too generous and unfair to late FSD owners.

I would propose giving early FSD owners a voucher to transfer FSD to their next vehicle (lease or purchase). So they would essentially get FSD free on their next vehicle. I think that is fair.
 

run-the-joules

Turgid Member
Aug 13, 2017
3,785
7,364
SF Bay
Well, I think your plan is way too complicated. Also free FSD for life is too generous and unfair to late FSD owners.

I would propose giving early FSD owners a voucher to transfer FSD to their next vehicle (lease or purchase). So they would essentially get FSD free on their next vehicle. I think that is fair.

I'd be pretty thrilled with that to be honest, and it would basically ensure that I'll buy a Model Y in about 12-18 months (right now I "probably" will but leaving it open)… but I'm also mainly pissed off at Tesla for breaking the early access program invite promise more than anything, so I'm probably the easiest person to regain the good will of.
 

diplomat33

Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Aug 3, 2017
9,303
13,262
Terre Haute, IN USA
but I'm also mainly pissed off at Tesla for breaking the early access program invite promise more than anything, so I'm probably the easiest person to regain the good will of.

Honestly, I don't know if you are missing much. EAP basically meant that you got half-baked features before everyone else. Also, I understand EAP was on a separate software branch so you would not get the good software versions. So if you really really wanted to try FSD features before they were finished, or if you really wanted to have some input and be able to give feedback to Tesla about FSD, I guess EAP would have been good for you. But otherwise, it is probably best just to wait.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Deslah

run-the-joules

Turgid Member
Aug 13, 2017
3,785
7,364
SF Bay
or if you really wanted to have some input and be able to give feedback to Tesla about FSD, I guess EAP would have been good for you.

That's the basic situation, and why I was so excited. In the end, whatever though. The constant promises and lack of followthrough from Elon & Co are really putting a bad residue on a generally very good car, so to speak. None of it would be hard for them to polish off and fix up if they actually dedicated themselves to doing so.
 
  • Love
Reactions: pilotSteve

electronblue

Active Member
Oct 1, 2018
2,325
2,508
Earth
@run-the-joules

It is very simple, really, Tesla needs to deliver the car and the features they sold. If AP2 cars are not able to get to Level 5 no geofence for non-regulatory reasons, i.e. if AP2 falls behind because Tesla didn’t actually put enough stuff in it for it to be ”Level 5 capable hardware” as sold Tesla needs to replace whatever needed to make it so — including replacing the entire car if need be at no cost to the buyer. People didn’t buy just an FSD option, they bought cars because of it.

@diplomat33 Your belittling of how much original AP2/FSD buyers were ”sold” and misled is not appreciated, but it is also not surprising.
 

diplomat33

Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Aug 3, 2017
9,303
13,262
Terre Haute, IN USA
@diplomat33 Your belittling of how much original AP2/FSD buyers were ”sold” and misled is not appreciated, but it is also not surprising.

I resent that! I am not belittling them at all! I said they should get FSD for free on their next car as compensation. How is that belittling them?

And I think AP2 cars should and will get upgraded to AP3.
 

electronblue

Active Member
Oct 1, 2018
2,325
2,508
Earth
I resent that! I am not belittling them at all! I said they should get FSD for free on their next car as compensation. How is that belittling them?

That compensation idea is a joke as it basically rewards Tesla with a sale and a software enabled freebie as ”compensation”.

Also your dismissal of Early Access promise...
 
The only thing I think they should do, and better if they had did it from the start, is allow people to cancel unrealized/preordered features like FSD (the current case for those with EAP) and get their money back. Tesla would still get the benefit of the loan for that period. Nothing came out before your lease is up? Cancel it. Lowered the price? Cancel and reorder (or offer a match, like seemingly every other company would do). Even in the case of a glitched out unintentional order you're just told you're SOL. It's a bit maddening IMO.
 

run-the-joules

Turgid Member
Aug 13, 2017
3,785
7,364
SF Bay
The only thing I think they should do, and better if they had did it from the start, is allow people to cancel unrealized/preordered features like FSD (the current case for those with EAP) and get their money back. Tesla would still get the benefit of the loan for that period. Nothing came out before your lease is up? Cancel it. Lowered the price? Cancel and reorder (or offer a match, like seemingly every other company would do). Even in the case of a glitched out unintentional order you're just told you're SOL. It's a bit maddening IMO.

Reasonable. Doesn't do anything to restore goodwill, but I agree that's the minimum bar that should have been set originally.
 
  • Like
Reactions: croman and TM34M

diplomat33

Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Aug 3, 2017
9,303
13,262
Terre Haute, IN USA
That compensation idea is a joke as it basically rewards Tesla with a sale and a software enabled freebie as ”compensation”.

Well, giving them free FSD for life is ridiculous. Get FSD when it is released yes, but not FSD forever. That's too much.

The only thing that Tesla is required to do is deliver the promised FSD to people who purchased it. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
  • Like
Reactions: liuping

electronblue

Active Member
Oct 1, 2018
2,325
2,508
Earth
Well, giving them free FSD for life is ridiculous. Get FSD when it is released yes, but not FSD forever. That's too much.

The only thing that Tesla is required to do is deliver the promised FSD to people who purchased it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sure. But I took the idea from @run-the-joules as a way of compensation if Tesla can NOT deliver... what would be a reasonable remedy then?

If Tesla can deliver — up to and including replacing entire AP2 cars if needed — then that would be OK too in my view. Of course there might be the question of compensating for the delays, but forgetting about that for a moment.

If they can not deliver, I actually am not sure lifetime FSD would be enough either! As that would be too much of a miss. But I do know simply a voucher for the next car’s FSD would be an insult in that scenario...
 

run-the-joules

Turgid Member
Aug 13, 2017
3,785
7,364
SF Bay
Well, giving them free FSD for life is ridiculous. Get FSD when it is released yes, but not FSD forever. That's too much.

My rationale (or what passes for it) for that by the way is thinking that the pool of people who got FSD between Oct '16 and end of Dec '17 is probably not particularly large in the grand scheme of things, and basic autopilot is now pretty crap vs enhanced autopilot which was fine, so it'd be a decent hat tip to make sure people aren't losing features while they wait for real FSD.
 

diplomat33

Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Aug 3, 2017
9,303
13,262
Terre Haute, IN USA
If they can not deliver, I actually am not sure lifetime FSD would be enough either! As that would be too much of a miss. But I do know simply a voucher for the next car’s FSD would be an insult in that scenario...

FSD for life is not fair to new owners because it means that they get FSD forever while someone like me loses FSD when I trade in my car.

In the event that Tesla does not deliver, yes FSD owners should get FSD for free when it is available. But getting FSD forever on every future car, is way too much!
 

Products we're discussing on TMC...

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top