A post nobody asked for: How I'd handle the FSD problem (features, HW upgrades) for early adopters

[electronblue]

FSD for life is not fair to new owners because it means that they get FSD forever while someone like me loses FSD when I trade in my car.

In the event that Tesla does not deliver, yes FSD owners should get FSD for free when it is available. But getting FSD forever on every future car, is way too much!

The potential remedy should be proportional to what each and every one were sold, nothing more, nothing less.

AP2 owners in 2016 were sold a LOT without any possibility of insight into how little Tesla actually had — and we have been hit with the most downsides ever since (not just the longest wait but limitations due to AP2 vs. AP2.5, MCU1 vs. MCU2 and paid the highest price, most broken promises, most delays etc).

When you bought FSD, not only did you pay less and are less limited by the other factors, more importantly you had better insight (and different Model 3 FSD texts) into what Tesla sold you. You bought a different product... hence different potential remedies.

If Tesla can’t deliver what AP2 owners bought in 2016-2017, no way is a free FSD with next Tesla purchase a reasonable remedy at all. It is insulting to even suggest so.

 

[am_dmd]

I resent that! I am not belittling them at all! I said they should get FSD for free on their next car as compensation. How is that belittling them?

And I think AP2 cars should and will get upgraded to AP3.

What if I don't want to purchase another Tesla. FSD voucher is of no good to me. Either deliver what they sold or replace car if current one can't. They had ~3 years to figure it out ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[am_dmd]

FSD for life is not fair to new owners because it means that they get FSD forever while someone like me loses FSD when I trade in my car.

In the event that Tesla does not deliver, yes FSD owners should get FSD for free when it is available. But getting FSD forever on every future car, is way too much!

See how it feels being at the other end of the stick
Now you know why we AP2 and probably AP1 owners are so bitter with Tesla.

 

[electronblue]

@diplomat33

The thing you seem to fail to grasp is that remedies for eventualities that can not be remedied are always by nature disproportionately high. It is because people are trying to remedy something that can not actually be remedied.

So for example if Tesla can’t deliver AP2 FSD to me as sold, and can’t replace my car (for whatever reason, let’s forget about that for a while), yet I don’t want to buy a new Tesla because I intended to keep my Level 5 car for 20 years... but the only remedy available requires me to buy a new Tesla... then that remedy should by definition compensate for me for something I do not want or need, because it suddenly is the only way even approaching making me whole.

Such a remedy would have to include a significant extra element (like lifetime FSD perhaps, though I would personally not consider that sufficient) to be something I would even consider as a remedy, if it otherwise required me to do something I don’t want or shouldn’t need to do, like buy a new car prematurely.

 

[diplomat33]

@diplomat33

The thing you seem to fail to grasp is that remedies for eventualities that can not be remedied are always by nature disproportionately high. It is because people are trying to remedy something that can not actually be remedied.

So for example if Tesla can’t deliver AP2 FSD to me as sold, and can’t replace my car (for whatever reason, let’s forget about that for a while), yet I don’t want to buy a new Tesla because I intended to keep my Level 5 car for 20 years... but the only remedy available requires me to buy a new Tesla... then that remedy should by definition compensate for me for something I do not want or need, because it suddenly is the only way even approaching making me whole.

Such a remedy would have to include a significant extra element (like lifetime FSD perhaps) to be something I would even consider as a remedy, if it otherwise required me to do something I don’t want or shouldn’t need to do, like buy a new car.

Again, I don't disagree that Tesla should honor their promise of delivering FSD to owners who purchased it in 2016. So Tesla should give FSD when it is done to FSD owners. But when Tesla does achieve L5 autonomy, how is it fair that early FSD owners get L5 autonomy on every car for the rest of their lives while other owners have to buy L5 autonomy again each time they trade in their car? That's not fair. Sure, early FSD owners were gravely inconvenienced by having to wait a long time to get FSD but that does not mean you give them L5 autonomy for life!

 

[electronblue]

Again, I don't disagree that Tesla should honor their promise of delivering FSD to owners who purchased it in 2016. So Tesla should give FSD when it is done to FSD owners. But when Tesla does achieve L5 autonomy, how is it fair that early FSD owners get L5 autonomy on every car for the rest of their lives while other owners have to buy L5 autonomy again each time they trade in their car? That's not fair. Sure, early FSD owners were gravely inconvenienced by having to wait a long time to get FSD but that does not mean you give them L5 autonomy for life!

So what would you give them IF Tesla can’t deliver for their current car?

 

[diplomat33]

So what would you give them IF Tesla can’t deliver for their current car?

When Tesla achieves L5, I would upgrade their current car for free to L5 if possible. If it is not possible, I would give them L5 for free on their next car. Probably give them their next car for free too. That way, they are not forced to buy an expensive car just to get a feature that they are owed. But not L5 for life.

 

[Dr. J]

When Tesla achieves L5, I would upgrade their current car for free to L5 if possible. If it is not possible, I would give them L5 for free on their next car. Probably give them their next car for free too. That way, they are not forced to buy an expensive car just to get a feature that they are owed. But not L5 for life.

Now we're giving away free cars? What is this, the Oprah Show?

 

[diplomat33]

Now you know why we AP2 and probably AP1 owners are so bitter with Tesla.

I've know why you all are so bitter for awhile now.

 

[electronblue]

When Tesla achieves L5, I would upgrade their current car for free to L5 if possible. If it is not possible, I would give them L5 for free on their next car. Probably give them their next car for free too. That way, they are not forced to buy an expensive car just to get a feature that they are owed. But not L5 for life.

Free next car would certainly be a remedy as fixing the issue itself would happen without a cost to the owner.

Also refunding the original car would be a remedy (purchase-price buyback). Use/wear and interest/claims would offset each other — call it even.

The free FSD for life was, I believe, an attempt to solve the scenario where refunding or giving a free car was was deemed impossible, and delivering FSD also was deemed impossible. That is where the ”excessive” remedy would come into play for a reason.

Not that I would consider ”FSD for life” any kind of sufficient remedy at all but I can at least see there is some effort in that idea.

 

[am_dmd]

I am not willing to give these crooks any more escape routes. Either they figure out upgrade path or replace my current car with whatever best they have now till they achieve L5.

 

[timewasted]

FSD for life is not fair to new owners because it means that they get FSD forever while someone like me loses FSD when I trade in my car.

In the event that Tesla does not deliver, yes FSD owners should get FSD for free when it is available. But getting FSD forever on every future car, is way too much!

Excuse me while I get my tiny little violin to play you a sad tune.

While we’re waiting to figure out how this’ll all shake out, you’ll be earning hundreds of thousands of dollars with your million mile appreciating asset robotaxi while you sleep! Surely you’ll be able to afford another Tesla up sell at that point!

 

[run-the-joules]

I am not willing to give these crooks any more escape routes. Either they figure out upgrade path or replace my current car with whatever best they have now till they achieve L5.

Not an unreasonable standpoint as far as I'm concerned.

 

[75Shappyt]

I bought it at 2000.00 for my 2017 MS with EAP, I still think that was a good risk, if not, I'm not going to ask or think Tesla owns me a new car, where does that come from?

 

[diplomat33]

While we’re waiting to figure out how this’ll all shake out, you’ll be earning hundreds of thousands of dollars with your million mile appreciating asset robotaxi while you sleep!

That's funny.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Obviously Tesla should just allow people with FSD V1.0 (the people who have gotten nothing so far) to get a refund. The "3 months maybe, 6 months definitely" tweet was almost three years ago.

 

[run-the-joules]

Obviously Tesla should just allow people with FSD V1.0 (the people who have gotten nothing so far) to get a refund. The "3 months maybe, 6 months definitely" tweet was almost three years ago.

that’s gonna be a fun anniversary.

 

[timewasted]

I decided I wanted to actually make a mostly non-snarky post for the first time in... a while. So here is my view of this situation. You’re free to disagree with me all you want, I truly don’t care.

Any outcome that has Tesla asking me for even a single cent more than I’ve paid is unacceptable. Full stop. This is bordering on (if not full on into) fraud at this point, so I’m absolutely not giving them more of my money for the privilege of being made whole. I paid them for goods that they have not yet made available. My end of this deal is complete, and it’s up to them to take care of their end.

I will also not accept a simple refund of my $3000 purchase price for the FSD option. Hell, a refund of my $8000 EAP+FSD price is also not acceptable. This was a feature that was material to my purchasing decision, and that decision was made based on marketing information that is STILL PRESENT on their website which claims that the driver is only present for legal reasons and that the car is capable of fully autonomous driving. If not for these and other claims, I would not have purchased this car. Any refund would have to be significant, and quite frankly punitive to Tesla.

I know someone is going to respond telling me that I’m SOL and that there’s something in the contract that precludes me from getting anything. I don’t care. Like I said, this is bordering on fraud and that changes the game.

With that out of the way, here is what I want to happen. It’s quite simple, actually. I just want what I paid for. I don’t care that new cars have Netflix and mine doesn’t. I care that I’m over halfway through my original warranty and they haven’t actually delivered the features of my car that I ordered. This is a very real issue, and I don’t intend to sit by and get screwed.

Despite how my posts may sometimes read, I’m actually a very reasonable person. If Tesla doesn’t like me as a customer, they are welcome to cut me a check and we’ll each go our separate ways.

That’s a little more than 2 cents, probably closer to 10-20 cents. Keep the change.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

The problem with FSD is that it was an option without clear deliverables or a specific time frame.

Now you might think the deliverable was FSD, but obviously that comes with the caveat that regulators will have to approve it.
You also might think that there was a specific time frame, but there simply wasn't one.

The other thing to consider is people bought FSD for lots of different reasons.

Some bought it just to get HW3 and to continue getting FSD related updates
Some bought it to support FSD efforts despite the unlikely hood of it
Some bought it because they wanted any kind of FSD stuff even if it only accomplished L3
Some bought it because they have money to piss away
Some bought it because they fell for it hook line and sinker

Over the course of time it seems like most of us have accepted that the only true deliverable of FSD is HW3. At this point we don't have any facts on when vehicles will be upgraded. All the rumors going around are just rumors. Until we know the facts we can't say what Tesla should do.

I strongly feel like from a business case stand point that they should handle the HW2 people sooner than later. The issue with them is they're going to be coming off leases soon.

So they have to do something to keep them in a Tesla. The easiest way to do is is to have a one time FSD transfer or a large discount on a new Tesla. That saves Tesla from the hassle of upgrading their car, and gets the customer into a new car. This would take care of a lot of lease returns.

That still leaves HW2 owners to either get upgraded or refunded.

If upgrading wasn't possible or feasible then they'd get a $5K refund or somewhere around there assuming they financed their car. I know it's $3K that they paid, but $5K is more reflective of todays market price. Plus some stuff that was in the $5K EAP got moved into FSD. Lots of that stuff has never worked quite right. I think $5K is a fair amount.

For the majority of people money is the mop, and how messes get cleaned up. There are few enough HW2 owners that Tesla can take care of them without going bankrupt doing so.

Beyond HW2 owners I don't think Tesla has too worry too much as they have a bit more time to handle the situation. They also have other fires to put out like customers that live in countries with better consumer protection laws.

 

[electronblue]

@S4WRXTTCS

It is not true there was no timeline — or especially that there would have been nothing specific — about the original FSD deliverable.

There were at least three very specific things that one could have expected delivered already:

1. FSD differentiating features using 8 cameras only for those who bought FSD (vs 4 cameras for EAP).

2. From January 2017 onwards, expectation of differentiating features available for FSD buyers only (not EAP) in 3-6 months (by summer 2017).

3. AP2 driving from coast to coast by end of 2017 as, if nothing else, proof of it being ”Level 5 capable hardware”.

None of these Tesla announced things have happened at all. Tesla has not kept their end of the bargain — and first AP2 leases are ending this month.

This before we even start to consider any broader implications they have sold us like sleeping in your car and Summon from coast to coast. When Tesla has not shown good faith even in these three basic, specific things, we don’t even need to debate those broader topics to consider Tesla failing to deliver.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

@S4WRXTTCS

It is not true there was no timeline — or especially that there would have been nothing specific — about the original FSD deliverable.

There were at least three very specific things that one could have expected delivered already:

1. FSD differentiating features using 8 cameras only for those who bought FSD (vs 4 cameras for EAP).

2. From January 2017 onwards, expectation of differentiating features available for FSD buyers only (not EAP) in 3-6 months (by summer 2017).

3. AP2 driving from coast to coast by end of 2017 as, if nothing else, proof of it being ”Level 5 capable hardware”.

None of these Tesla announced things have happened at all. Tesla has not kept their end of the bargain — and first AP2 leases are ending this month.

This before we even start to consider any broader implications they have sold us like sleeping in your car and Summon from coast to coast. When Tesla has not shown good faith even in these three basic, specific things, we don’t even need to debate those broader topics to consider Tesla failing to deliver.

Thanks for the editing advise.

I can correct it by saying "The problem with FSD is that it was an option that had one specific deliverable that people truly cared about, but had no promise date on when it was going to live"

Hardly anyone cares about 4 cameras versus 8.
The only people that even talked about differentiating features were obsessive Elon twitter followers, and Elon never said what those features were even going to be.
The AP2 driving coasts to coasts doesn't give people what they paid for. It would have been just another side show. I didn't pay good money to watch a damn demo.

FSD to me is about the car taking responsibility for driving.

It covers the entire spectrum of expectations of people who got the FSD package. From the skeptical, but open-minded types like myself who felt like they could accomplish some level of FSD like L3 on freeways all the way to the most optimistic of us who felt like they accomplish summon cost to coast.

So accomplishing something of that is the only thing that mattered.

But, they gave no promise for when that was going to happen. They also couldn't since it's ultimately not up to them.

We both seem to agree that Tesla should do something to make things right with HW2 owners. Making things right with them will go a long ways in showing good faith on something Tesla hasn't shown any good faith on. It also goes well beyond FSD as HW2 owners haven't exactly been treated very kindly by Tesla.