Accident while on EAP...

[GolanB]

I would not have bought the car if not for FSD. And I know my friend bought it for the same reason. And I didn’t expect it to work for 4-5 years and I know it will have limitations when it does.

It's not clear whether Tesla would be able to survive without differentiating themselves enough without leading disruptive technologies, like FSD. This is part of Tesla's charm - the fact that the car gets better and better. If it were just a fun car to drive and nothing else, they'd be in a world of competition head-on. Safety, driveability, energy storage and distribution, technology and anticipation of software enhancements is part of their winning strategy and its put them ahead. To the degree they stay ahead is an unknown, but with the sheer volume of data they've collected for building FSD, they're well positioned to continue in the leading position for the next few years. After that is anyones best guess.

That said, Elon must have something up his sleeve that he hasn't shared with us and I'm hoping that we'll finally get a glimpse of later this month during the Autonomy Investor Day (on Apr 19th). The expectation is that it is going to be something entirely different from what we've got now with Enhanced AutoPilot/AutoSteering - and it would need to be if its going to do what Elon claims - namely "It’s there for when we start competing with Uber/Lyft & people allow their car to earn money for them as part of the Tesla shared autonomy fleet." This is clearly a huge leap from what we've got our hands on now.

 

[Freewilly]

He presented the issue as a failure of AutoPilot, and the cause of the accident. He said Tesla took the matter seriously and escalated it immediately to the AutoPilot team. He did email a description in detail, including video, and Google Map Data. He followed up with a phone call, and then the Tesla team got engaged. On the other hand, they still did not get back to him with the conclusion, nor did they offer to help cover any costs. You might want to try again.

Thanks! Tesla got back to me today with those exact questions. Hopefully, I can get an answer soon! I'll probably start a new thread once I get a response.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I would not have bought the car if not for FSD. And I know my friend bought it for the same reason. And I didn’t expect it to work for 4-5 years and I know it will have limitations when it does.

Well, I guess you have your expectations set reasonably - I hope most people in your position do as well. I am not sure though what the benefit of an FSD system with limitations is, though. Depends on what sort of limitations of course.

 

[GolanB]

Well, I guess you have your expectations set reasonably - I hope most people in your position do as well. I am not sure though what the benefit of an FSD system with limitations is, though. Depends on what sort of limitations of course.

In my part of the world, I can say I am already benefiting from autosteering while stuck in bumper to bumper traffic. Since I enjoy driving when I'm not in congested areas I tend not to enable automation unless I'm on a very long stretch of road. I also benefit from the safety features today, such as auto-braking, and warnings.

At some point, FSD may be able to help train drivers drive, but who knows - once it becomes common, the opposite may, in fact, happen (that drivers will become rusty, and inexperienced). Think of how we've become dependent on technology in other areas of our lives (calculators, GPS navigation, phone directories, grammar and spell checking, etc.) . In speaking with folks in the aviation industry, I was surprised to learn that pilots may only be actively engaged for 15 minutes or less on domestic flights (mostly on takeoff and landing) - and in certain cases where visibility is greatly reduced, automation can put the plane down on the runway as well. For the first time here in the US, I've been told that Airlines are struggling to find new pilots and that fewer are coming into the industry via government work. In the developed world, one could easily make an argument that the future of human navigation is going to head into a decline. For about one year, I didn't own a vehicle at all - It was the first time in 30 years of driving. The lack of having the convenience of a car was entirely offset by the availability of Uber/Lyft and Public Transportation, and for me, it became more of a luxury than a necessity. I suspect that some of our children will never have the experience of driving a manual car in their lifetime.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

In my part of the world, I can say I am already benefiting from autosteering while stuck in bumper to bumper traffic. Since I enjoy driving when I'm not in congested areas I tend not to enable automation unless I'm on a very long stretch of road. I also benefit from the safety features today, such as auto-braking, and warnings.

Can totally see this as a benefit. Because it is. Even my crude Highlander lane keeping and TACC is great for reducing work load on road trips.

I just have a harder time seeing the utility and load reducing aspects of FSD if you have to pay attention at all times in a complex urban environment. I just can’t quite see the marginal benefit beyond what we already have. And I can’t see any evidence that they’ll be able to do level 3 with incidents like this. Maybe Elon really does have an ace up his sleeve with HW3, but that seems implausible.

The rest of the long term picture you describe is speculative and will eventually transpire I am sure. But I am not sure buying a car today (or last year) thinking it will do that and that being THE reason you buy the car is setting a reasonable expectation. Even if Elon says it will happen...

 

[GolanB]

Can totally see this as a benefit. Because it is. Even my crude Highlander lane keeping and TACC is great for reducing work load on road trips.

I just have a harder time seeing the utility and load reducing aspects of FSD if you have to pay attention at all times in a complex urban environment. I just can’t quite see the marginal benefit beyond what we already have. And I can’t see any evidence that they’ll be able to do level 3 with incidents like this. Maybe Elon really does have an ace up his sleeve with HW3, but that seems implausible.

The rest of the long term picture you describe is speculative and will eventually transpire I am sure. But I am not sure buying a car today (or last year) thinking it will do that and that being THE reason you buy the car is setting a reasonable expectation. Even if Elon says it will happen...

My personal experience is that auditing autosteering takes more energy and mental resources than simply driving. Part of the reason I feel this way is because much of my driving decisions have moved to a subconscious level of processing; when I drive, I'm rarely thinking about it unless my attention is directed to some event on the roads. In comparison with auditing, you've got to be fully engaged and ready to take over driving. Its not unlike the experience I feel when giving driving lessons. It also reminds me of how I felt when I first began driving on my own.

Can I get as comfortable with auditing - perhaps - but more importantly, should I? This week I've become even more conscious of autosteering after having radar drop out on me twice and the need to automatically take over.

 

[GolanB]

Concerning the other incident with AutoPilot, Tesla responded with the following:

What they had found, was that diagnostic logs confirmed that the vehicle operated without fault on Feb. 10th, 2019 at the time of the incident.

The vehicle was traveling at 61 miles per hour with Navigate on Autopilot / Auto Steer activated, and the steering wheel turned slightly right with the driver’s hands detected on the steering wheel.

In the next one second, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control applied breaking and the steering wheel was manually turned to the right, canceling Navigate on Autopilot.

Over the next three to four seconds, the steering wheel continued to be manually turned to the right, and then the manual breaks were applied canceling Traffic-Aware Cruise Control.

The driver is responsible for the safe operation of the vehicle at all times. Always drive attentively and be prepared to take immediate action.

Auto Steer is not designed and will not steer vehicle around objects partially or completely in the driving lane, as was the case in the dash cam footage.

Always watch the road [and] stay prepared to take appropriate action. It is the driver's responsibility to take control of the vehicle. Drivers should not depend on Auto Steer Traffic Aware Cruise Control for determining appropriate driving paths or maintaining safe distances from other vehicles.
​

There are a few remaining questions which the driver would like to have answered, namely:

- Did the Tesla properly register the presence and distance of the adjacent car that it later came into contact with?
- Did the Tesla properly compute the lane distances and position of the lanes?
- Why did the Tesla suddenly pull to the left (crossing over the lane marker) and enter the left lane before it pulled to the right?
- Under what circumstances will the Tesla move out of an existing lane to avoid an accident, and why did this function not take place here?

If there are other questions anyone on the forum has, please respond so they can be added to the follow-up.

Tx.

Video Below:

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Concerning the other incident with AutoPilot, Tesla responded with the following:

What they had found, was that diagnostic logs confirmed that the vehicle operated without fault on Feb. 10th, 2019 at the time of the incident.

The vehicle was traveling at 61 miles per hour with Navigate on Autopilot / Auto Steer activated, and the steering wheel turned slightly right with the driver’s hands detected on the steering wheel.

In the next one second, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control applied breaking and the steering wheel was manually turned to the right, canceling Navigate on Autopilot.

Over the next three to four seconds, the steering wheel continued to be manually turned to the right, and then the manual breaks were applied canceling Traffic-Aware Cruise Control.

The driver is responsible for the safe operation of the vehicle at all times. Always drive attentively and be prepared to take immediate action.

Auto Steer is not designed and will not steer vehicle around objects partially or completely in the driving lane, as was the case in the dash cam footage.

Always watch the road [and] stay prepared to take appropriate action. It is the driver's responsibility to take control of the vehicle. Drivers should not depend on Auto Steer Traffic Aware Cruise Control for determining appropriate driving paths or maintaining safe distances from other vehicles.
​

There are a few remaining questions which the driver would like to have answered, namely:

- Did the Tesla properly register the presence and distance of the adjacent car that it later came into contact with?
- Did the Tesla properly compute the lane distances and position of the lanes?
- Why did the Tesla suddenly pull to the left (crossing over the lane marker) and enter the left lane before it pulled to the right?
- Under what circumstances will the Tesla move out of an existing lane to avoid an accident, and why did this function not take place here?

If there are other questions anyone on the forum has, please respond so they can be added to the follow-up.

Tx.

Can you re-link to the video or description of this incident so it’s clear what you are referring to? EDIT: Thanks.

My opinions on the 4 questions are:

3) I do not think it pulled to the left. It was just not steered enough to the right since Autosteer was off at that point (no way to know it was; I am speculating/aligning with Tesla’s assessment of sequence)
4) For the Model 3 description, see page 84 of the Owner’s Manual. The Lane Assist is not intended to move you out of your lane to avoid an accident. And basically they say much of the time it won’t work. It does operate at all times; Autosteer and/or TACC do not need to be engaged.


Basically I think this is a “mode confusion” accident on the transition to manual control. It’s an issue all EAP/AP users need to be vigilant about. You really have to know and internalize all the various tones the car gives you and know what they mean. For TACC there is no indicator of engagement/disengagement (as for most cruise controls in most vehicles). Just have to really know the car.

The driver may have also expected the cruise control to also disengage when they moved the steering wheel (which I think took place about 2 seconds before they pulled even to the other car). It did not of course, and this delay resulted in acceleration/maintenance of speed, when many human drivers would ease off because they would be saying "WTF is wrong with that guy in the fast lane?". And then the collision occurred because there was confusion about whether the car was still steering itself.

Also, when you see an incapacitated driver or anything amiss it is time to take over immediately. Testing the system is a terrible idea.

 

[GolanB]

Can you re-link to the video or description of this incident so it’s clear what you are referring to? I have gotten lost in the last 11 pages. I think it is the Model X incident “veering” into the other lane but no idea.

I've re-attached it to the post.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Concerning the other incident with AutoPilot, Tesla responded with the following:

What they had found, was that diagnostic logs confirmed that the vehicle operated without fault on Feb. 10th, 2019 at the time of the incident.

The vehicle was traveling at 61 miles per hour with Navigate on Autopilot / Auto Steer activated, and the steering wheel turned slightly right with the driver’s hands detected on the steering wheel.

In the next one second, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control applied breaking and the steering wheel was manually turned to the right, canceling Navigate on Autopilot.

Over the next three to four seconds, the steering wheel continued to be manually turned to the right, and then the manual breaks were applied canceling Traffic-Aware Cruise Control.

The driver is responsible for the safe operation of the vehicle at all times. Always drive attentively and be prepared to take immediate action.

Auto Steer is not designed and will not steer vehicle around objects partially or completely in the driving lane, as was the case in the dash cam footage.

Always watch the road [and] stay prepared to take appropriate action. It is the driver's responsibility to take control of the vehicle. Drivers should not depend on Auto Steer Traffic Aware Cruise Control for determining appropriate driving paths or maintaining safe distances from other vehicles.
​

There are a few remaining questions which the driver would like to have answered, namely:

- Did the Tesla properly register the presence and distance of the adjacent car that it later came into contact with?
- Did the Tesla properly compute the lane distances and position of the lanes?
- Why did the Tesla suddenly pull to the left (crossing over the lane marker) and enter the left lane before it pulled to the right?
- Under what circumstances will the Tesla move out of an existing lane to avoid an accident, and why did this function not take place here?

If there are other questions anyone on the forum has, please respond so they can be added to the follow-up.

Tx.

Video Below:

This seems like it might agree with my autosteer was disabled theory. It looks like the collision was less than 3-4 seconds before he started braking so Tesla is claiming that autosteer is off. I can't imagine not taking evasive action when the Nissan swerved into my lane right as I was about to pass...

 

[bhzmark]

auditing autosteering takes more energy and mental resources than simply driving.

Most people I've seen on this site and that generally have lots of experience with AP, including me, disagree. Delegating the steering and accel microadjustments to AP while staying alert for larger big picture environment issues is much less draining. People report being much less fatigued after a long road trip.

There is tremendous number of persuasive thoughtful experienced anecdotal reporting of this phenomena credibly on this and other social media sites and is exactly my own experience.

 

[Az_Rael]

Concerning the other incident with AutoPilot, Tesla responded with the following:

What they had found, was that diagnostic logs confirmed that the vehicle operated without fault on Feb. 10th, 2019 at the time of the incident.

The vehicle was traveling at 61 miles per hour with Navigate on Autopilot / Auto Steer activated, and the steering wheel turned slightly right with the driver’s hands detected on the steering wheel.

In the next one second, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control applied breaking and the steering wheel was manually turned to the right, canceling Navigate on Autopilot.

Over the next three to four seconds, the steering wheel continued to be manually turned to the right, and then the manual breaks were applied canceling Traffic-Aware Cruise Control.

The driver is responsible for the safe operation of the vehicle at all times. Always drive attentively and be prepared to take immediate action.

Auto Steer is not designed and will not steer vehicle around objects partially or completely in the driving lane, as was the case in the dash cam footage.

Always watch the road [and] stay prepared to take appropriate action. It is the driver's responsibility to take control of the vehicle. Drivers should not depend on Auto Steer Traffic Aware Cruise Control for determining appropriate driving paths or maintaining safe distances from other vehicles.
​

There are a few remaining questions which the driver would like to have answered, namely:

- Did the Tesla properly register the presence and distance of the adjacent car that it later came into contact with?
- Did the Tesla properly compute the lane distances and position of the lanes?
- Why did the Tesla suddenly pull to the left (crossing over the lane marker) and enter the left lane before it pulled to the right?
- Under what circumstances will the Tesla move out of an existing lane to avoid an accident, and why did this function not take place here?

If there are other questions anyone on the forum has, please respond so they can be added to the follow-up.

Tx.

Video Below:

I hadn’t thought about the mode confusion possibility on this one, but reading Tesla’s description then looking at the video, I agree with @Daniel in SD. It look like Autosteer may have been disengaged right as the car was passing, (possibly unconsciously trying to urge the car away from the fast lane driver), once AS is disengaged, the car started travelling straight, which because of the curve of the road, meant the car moved into the left lane contacting the other car. If music was on, the driver may have not have registered the disengage tone while they were focused on the idiot in the fast lane.

Side collision is dicey at best, since no one really knows when it will or won’t work, unfortunately. Collision alert maybe should have gone off, that would be a good question for Tesla.

 

[BBMc]

Just to clarify in advance, this accident is completely my fault as I dozed off behind the wheel after a long day at work and very little sleep the night before, and it's my responsibility to maintain control of the car at all times, but I am concerned that the car didn't stop in this situation as is advertised in EAP features.

I was on a single lane highway interchange in relatively high traffic so speeds were slow, I'm guessing that we were below 30MPH as the airbags didn't deploy. In the attached videos, you can see that my Model 3 didn't veer in either direction to avoid the accident and it obviously didn't slow down. I think the glare from the sun might have played a role in not recognizing the brake lights of the Forrester in front of me, but I would think that the radar sensors would have picked up the rapidly closing distance between the car in front of me and my car.

I emailed Tesla, but haven't received a response yet. I am planning on taking the car in on Monday to get it repaired and I'm hoping they can download the data to see what might have happened.

My intention in sharing is that many of you will be more attentive when using EAP and don't be a dummy like me and fall asleep behind the wheel.

IMG_6296 - Streamable
IMG_6297 - Streamable
IMG_6295 - Streamable

It almost looks as though your car sped up right before the guard rail. That might be an illusion as the other vehicles were slowing. Perhaps your foot was on the accelerator?

 

[Freewilly]

I should have some details as to what happened from Tesla next week. I have an open ticket with them to see what the vehicle said was going on when the accident occurred.

 

[ent3ndu]

A month later -- anything back from tesla?