Aftermarket Suspension with OEM Height and Softer Ride

[P3D-R]

Thanks for the explanation. I get that the shaft is hidden behind the dust cover. My mistake.

Can you explain more why droop is more important for the street. I certainly understand needing that travel for a pothole, for example, but isn't compression travel equally needed for a bump?

I'm totally on board with the adjustable damper length not being important if it's properly designed and that it could be a liability if it's adjusted too low. In MPP's case, they've already defined that distance and in Redwood's case they set it for you to make sure you're not risking your battery hitting the ground. All things being equal, there's no difference there. You just adjust the spring perch up and down to set height in either one. As you lower the spring, the damper compresses, moving closer to the bump stop so that minimum clearance to the ground is maintained.

Here's the part I'm not understanding though. The MPP kit is designed for a 1" drop. If I want a stock ride height with MPP, I have to use a 1.75" lift kit which puts me above stock ride height. To get back down, I have to lower the spring perch by 0.75" putting me closer to the bump stop. Do I not lose 0.75" of compression travel by doing that?

Also, by designing the suspension for a 1" drop, do they not have to use a stiffer spring than if it was designed for no drop?

SORRY FOR THE LONG READ and if I've misspoken please do correct me.

We're definitely making progress here and you're proposing better questions imo. Just for record, I have the RW Ohlins kit and work next door to them. I love my kit and sadly couldn't make it the day that you showed up. I know Heath really wanted me to. I was hoping you were gonna come up from SLO on Friday but ended up coming Thursday. I did speak with MPP a month or so ago to setup an account and assist them in scaling inventory out here on the westcoast but was turned down because I have the RW Ohlins kit and they really want all their dealers to be exclusively MPP. I understand that but it's very unfortunate because I'm really good at what I do. I hope they can see that I'm not here to sway people one way or the other. I simply want consumers and the community to understand the facts behind the pros/cons of these various setups. Not only MPP vs RW but also these other companies that might start coming out of Taiwan to support our lovely chassis.

I do believe there is a benefit with the independent lower bracket if you're raising the car just because you don't need to purchase spacers. In MPP's case they are using spacers to effectively raise the car but since this is occurring above the uppermount it will not have any negative effect on the stroke. In fact I would prefer to position the piston in it's optimal position for the damper stroke and then "shim" with spacers above the mount to get the higher ride height where you want. This way you can retain the optimal compression and rebound stroke to make the vehicle feel right and without unsettling the chassis because there isn't enough stroke in either of those two directions. So kudos to MPP there.

I totally get it that having more droop than compression doesn't seem logical and many moons ago I thought the same thing. It's difficult to explain without an animation or maybe it's just too early for me in the morning. I believe MPP will have a much easier time to explain this because they're very good at their editorials. The epiphany came after installing "JDM" coilovers with the independent lower bracket for a good 5 years, between 1999 and 2004, and then getting a european car into the office with KW's that had this massive stroke and helper springs. I could literally fit my head in the wheel gap under full droop. I was like, "Why would you do this?" You lose all your compression travel. Well I installed the setup, aligned the car, then went for a drive. It was AMAZING!!!!! I was like, "Holy crap, what is this non-sense?" It defied all my childish logic. Granted I was in my early 20's at that time and hadn't gotten super deep into suspension theory. Up until that point I was just an electrical engineer that liked to build custom audio systems and drive RX7's very irresponsibly. One of the primary functions of the suspension is to keep the tire on the ground. I think we can all agree to that. Let's say you install some "JDM" type coilovers with an independent lower bracket and NO helper springs and maintain preload on the main spring. Then all ride height adjustments are done at the lower bracket. Since you haven't "drooped" that spring at all the droop will be determined how much the weight of your vehicle compresses that main spring under static load. Let's say that is 1" for ease of numbers. Well now if you were driving on the freeway and hit a decent dip it will compress the damper and then make the vehicle want to "launch" upward. If you only have 1" of droop you will get air time. When that tire leaves the ground and then inevitably makes contact again it will be a sudden impact versus a damper that has 2-3" of droop you allow the shock more time to absorb that energy and potentially never have the tire leave the ground. This is the simplest analogy I can propose to make it easier for people to understand why droop is so important. In fact droop is more important than bump. Also keep in mind that bumpstops are usually 1.75" in length so you have that much stroke always available if your bumpstops are in place. There's also a huge difference in the properties and quality of bumpstops. This is a topic that I'm sure MPP can provide a lot more technical data on. In fact I have some peers local to us in Fremont that have published some information to help bring some light to these topics. Granted a lot of these tuners will not give out all their secrets but at least it will start to open up one's mind to new logic. Take a gander and do some googling to continue your education. Even I after 20+ years am still learning everyday. FCM discusses bumpstops starting on page 20.

http://www.fatcatmotorsports.com/FCM_Suspension_Truth.pdf

 

[P3D-R]

You are also correct that if we are lowering a car the spring rates are generally increased but again this doesn't have to be set in stone if the company has taken into account bumpstop tuning as well. You can see some of that explained in the PDF linked above.

 

[zman222]

SORRY FOR THE LONG READ and if I've misspoken please do correct me.

We're definitely making progress here and you're proposing better questions imo. Just for record, I have the RW Ohlins kit and work next door to them. I love my kit and sadly couldn't make it the day that you showed up. I know Heath really wanted me to. I was hoping you were gonna come up from SLO on Friday but ended up coming Thursday. I did speak with MPP a month or so ago to setup an account and assist them in scaling inventory out here on the westcoast but was turned down because I have the RW Ohlins kit and they really want all their dealers to be exclusively MPP. I understand that but it's very unfortunate because I'm really good at what I do. I hope they can see that I'm not here to sway people one way or the other. I simply want consumers and the community to understand the facts behind the pros/cons of these various setups. Not only MPP vs RW but also these other companies that might start coming out of Taiwan to support our lovely chassis.

I do believe there is a benefit with the independent lower bracket if you're raising the car just because you don't need to purchase spacers. In MPP's case they are using spacers to effectively raise the car but since this is occurring above the uppermount it will not have any negative effect on the stroke. In fact I would prefer to position the piston in it's optimal position for the damper stroke and then "shim" with spacers above the mount to get the higher ride height where you want. This way you can retain the optimal compression and rebound stroke to make the vehicle feel right and without unsettling the chassis because there isn't enough stroke in either of those two directions. So kudos to MPP there.

I totally get it that having more droop than compression doesn't seem logical and many moons ago I thought the same thing. It's difficult to explain without an animation or maybe it's just too early for me in the morning. I believe MPP will have a much easier time to explain this because they're very good at their editorials. The epiphany came after installing "JDM" coilovers with the independent lower bracket for a good 5 years, between 1999 and 2004, and then getting a european car into the office with KW's that had this massive stroke and helper springs. I could literally fit my head in the wheel gap under full droop. I was like, "Why would you do this?" You lose all your compression travel. Well I installed the setup, aligned the car, then went for a drive. It was AMAZING!!!!! I was like, "Holy crap, what is this non-sense?" It defied all my childish logic. Granted I was in my early 20's at that time and hadn't gotten super deep into suspension theory. Up until that point I was just an electrical engineer that liked to build custom audio systems and drive RX7's very irresponsibly. One of the primary functions of the suspension is to keep the tire on the ground. I think we can all agree to that. Let's say you install some "JDM" type coilovers with an independent lower bracket and NO helper springs and maintain preload on the main spring. Then all ride height adjustments are done at the lower bracket. Since you haven't "drooped" that spring at all the droop will be determined how much the weight of your vehicle compresses that main spring under static load. Let's say that is 1" for ease of numbers. Well now if you were driving on the freeway and hit a decent dip it will compress the damper and then make the vehicle want to "launch" upward. If you only have 1" of droop you will get air time. When that tire leaves the ground and then inevitably makes contact again it will be a sudden impact versus a damper that has 2-3" of droop you allow the shock more time to absorb that energy and potentially never have the tire leave the ground. This is the simplest analogy I can propose to make it easier for people to understand why droop is so important. In fact droop is more important than bump. Also keep in mind that bumpstops are usually 1.75" in length so you have that much stroke always available if your bumpstops are in place. There's also a huge difference in the properties and quality of bumpstops. This is a topic that I'm sure MPP can provide a lot more technical data on. In fact I have some peers local to us in Fremont that have published some information to help bring some light to these topics. Granted a lot of these tuners will not give out all their secrets but at least it will start to open up one's mind to new logic. Take a gander and do some googling to continue your education. Even I after 20+ years am still learning everyday. FCM discusses bumpstops starting on page 20.

http://www.fatcatmotorsports.com/FCM_Suspension_Truth.pdf

Thanks for the info on droop. Also as far as the lift kit from MPP goes, I can only add that the car definitely rode better than stock when I had them on and set to stock height. However, as I mentioned previously I way overestimated the need for them. They are best used if you want to raise the height above stock in my opinion. This was my first time purchasing coilovers and I think I am a huge fan now. I actually had the lift kit removed and my car lowered 3/4 inches from stock height. My MPP adjustable comforts (hybrid version) with or without the lift kit has a nearly perfect ride for me as the stock dampers annoyed me on my commute. The stiff ride was really affected by poor roads. Buddhra I believe wanted to see the bump stop pushed lower on my MPP coilovers. I don't want to try and push it down, but here is a better picture I believe is showing the dust shield as well ?

 

[lbowroom]

Buddhra,

i think this is a case of you having just enough knowledge to be dangerous. You know enough theory to come to strong convictions, but not to fully understand where you’re wrong.

i’m not going to hold a lecture, but one quick note as an example. You assume that a lowered car has less travel and therefore needs to be stiffer. That’s only true if you maintain the same component configuration. If you change it, you can actually have longer travel with a lower ride height. Start thinking about what other assumptions you’ve made.

 

[buddhra]

After multiple weeks of various delays, I finally have the @RedwoodMotors Grand Touring kit on and I've spent a week with it driving various roads around and playing with the damping settings. Overall, I'm well pleased with it. I've been working to get something like this for almost two years now, and wasted a lot of money on another failed experiment, so I'm glad to finally get there.

As I expected, I was able to set the ride height at factory height with no additional hardware. I'm actually about 10mm too high in the front yet and need to do one more adjustment there. The rear was about 13mm lower than the front from the factory, so I lifted it 7mm to get closer to even and give myself a little more bump travel.

For damping, I started with their recommended settings of 22 out of 36 clicks from firm on the front and 24 out of 34 clicks from firm on the rear and, honestly, I was a bit disappointed at first. It was softer, but not a lot softer than stock. However, even two clicks of the adjusters makes a noticeable change, so I've been playing with different settings all week. Right now, I'm at 34 in the front and 34 in the rear and I'm really liking it.

The first thing I noticed with the kit was a huge reduction in vibrations coming through the steering wheel. Beyond that, the bumps I drive over every day between work and home feel much smoother, like it takes the hard edge off of them. Cruising down the highway at 70 mph feels a lot like our old Lexus ES350.

I thought for sure that going all the way to soft would just turn the car into a mess, but even going over speed bumps I just feel the car move up and down once and stabilize. No under-damped oscillations at all.

Handling-wise, even at the softest settings, I feel like long sweeping curves are actually improved. I have several on my way to work every day where I felt like the OE suspension would lean over and then oddly lean back a bit a moment later. I actually thought something was wrong at first, but now I'm pretty sure that was it hitting the huge OE bump stops and upsetting the balance. With the Redwood, those same curves are smooth and stable the whole time. The car doesn't even feel like it's leaning much farther over either.

A slalom would probably be another story though since the car is definitely quick to lean over at these settings, but that's not my goal with this setup anyway and I could always firm the dampers up if I ever wanted to. They have remote adjusters available to make it easy as well. I'd guess somewhere around 20 clicks would be pretty close to stock even.

I really only have one minor complaint with the a bit of noise coming from the springs and rubber spacers when I go over speed bumps. It's no worse than other cars I've had, but just not mostly silent like the OE was. A little grease could possibly quiet that down too.

I did the installation myself with a friend and definitely learned a few things along the way (including some things I had wrong and right in some previous posts). The springs on these cars are pretty hefty and you have to put a lot of preload on them to get up to stock ride height. It takes a decent spring compressor and at least some sweat, if not blood and tears as well. I'd recommend most people not do it themselves unless they particularly want the education, already have the needed tools, and have the time.

Redwood gave us discount code "LivingTesla" to share if you're interested in a set. Let me know if you have any questions and I'll try to answer.

 

[jselbie]

@buddhra - Thanks for the write up. I've been following this thread for the past few months. I've always felt like the comfort of my M3 could be improved as well and had been looking forward to your results.

Aside from vibrations on my general commute, my litmus test for success would be driving over the speed bumps in front of the elementary school near my house and in the parking lot at work. Can you offer up more details on your change in experience with that? Why did you initially suspect the "soft" setting would make speed bumps worse? Is that a tradeoff with settings (fast vs slow driving)?

By chance did you take any vibration measurements "before" and "after" the install? Will you be putting out a YouTube video? I'd love to see a demo video on how you experiment with adjustments and settings.

I got a million more questions, but probably need to educate myself first in how different suspensions are expected to impact driving experience. (i.e. what are the tradeoffs between all the different options)

 

[P3D-R]

@buddhra - Thanks for the write up. I've been following this thread for the past few months. I've always felt like the comfort of my M3 could be improved as well and had been looking forward to your results.

Aside from vibrations on my general commute, my litmus test for success would be driving over the speed bumps in front of the elementary school near my house and in the parking lot at work. Can you offer up more details on your change in experience with that? Why did you initially suspect the "soft" setting would make speed bumps worse? Is that a tradeoff with settings (fast vs slow driving)?

By chance did you take any vibration measurements "before" and "after" the install? Will you be putting out a YouTube video? I'd love to see a demo video on how you experiment with adjustments and settings.

I got a million more questions, but probably need to educate myself first in how different suspensions are expected to impact driving experience. (i.e. what are the tradeoffs between all the different options)

It's really important to determine your budget first imo. Once the budget is determined then you can move forward into isolating your options based on your needs. At best MPP Comfort non adjustable plus rear arms plus install with alignment would already put you into the $3400 + range I'm sure. The add another $1000 - $2000 depending on if you go MPP adjustables or Redwood Ohlins adjustables. I highly suggest not overcomplicating things. You can't really go wrong with either a KW/ST setup or an Ohlins setup.

Here's a list of some potential Ohlins benefits: I can only highlight things that are inarguable. Other areas like ride comfort etc is very subjective so there has to be a very strong frame of reference for this "opinionated data" to be useful.

I have very close ties to Redwood and helped with product testing etc.... I'm happy to help answer your questions from a more technical standpoint if that's required.

1. Monotube damper
2. Aluminum casings, so very light
3. Modular system so if you have any part that needs to be replaced I'm sure the turnaround time is much faster and easier to deal with. For example, if you need a replacement damper then Redwood can simply mail you a shock to replace the existing one with little to no downtime. For KW you will need to replace the whole assembly or have it removed and rebuilt iirc.
4. Another benefit to Ohlins is the fact that many places can revalve them for you into whatever you may want in the future. I'm not sure if this is possible with KW V3's or the likes. I have not seen this published as being serviceable with companies like PSI that we frequent out here near Sonoma Raceway.

 

[buddhra]

@buddhra - Thanks for the write up. I've been following this thread for the past few months. I've always felt like the comfort of my M3 could be improved as well and had been looking forward to your results.

Aside from vibrations on my general commute, my litmus test for success would be driving over the speed bumps in front of the elementary school near my house and in the parking lot at work. Can you offer up more details on your change in experience with that? Why did you initially suspect the "soft" setting would make speed bumps worse? Is that a tradeoff with settings (fast vs slow driving)?

By chance did you take any vibration measurements "before" and "after" the install? Will you be putting out a YouTube video? I'd love to see a demo video on how you experiment with adjustments and settings.

I got a million more questions, but probably need to educate myself first in how different suspensions are expected to impact driving experience. (i.e. what are the tradeoffs between all the different options)

Finally got a video out.

 

[cab]

Finally got a video out.

@buddhra
Beyond steady state driving road noise, did you notice any NVH improvements when hitting bumps (i.e. potholes, less that smooth roads, etc.) or washboard surfaces (i.e. series of rapid little bumps)? Tesla seems to struggle with quelling vibrations introduced to the body structure in general on their cars so any reduction of transmitted bumps might go a long way with regard to NVH. Conversely, for the Redwood kit, are the solid mounts offsetting (or perhaps even worsening) any of that impact transmission that the dampers might have helped with.

Really appreciate the video!

 

[buddhra]

@buddhra
Beyond steady state driving road noise, did you notice any NVH improvements when hitting bumps (i.e. potholes, less that smooth roads, etc.) or washboard surfaces (i.e. series of rapid little bumps)? Tesla seems to struggle with quelling vibrations introduced to the body structure in general on their cars so any reduction of transmitted bumps might go a long way with regard to NVH. Conversely, for the Redwood kit, are the solid mounts offsetting (or perhaps even worsening) any of that impact transmission that the dampers might have helped with.

Really appreciate the video!

We have 50 or so feet of brick entrance to our subdivision and that's definitely quieter and smoother now. It just overall takes the edge off of any bumps. The only negative I've found is a little bit of rubber squeak on speed bumps.

I tried to quantify the difference of various bigger bumps using sound recordings and accelerometer recordings, but the measurements and recordings were just too variable to draw any meaningful conclusions so I gave up on that for the video.

The only place it has solid mounts is at the bottom of the rear dampers. I wondered about that potentially adding NVH, but with the rear springs being separate from the damper and them maintaining all of the stock rubber for the springs and adding extra in some places, I don't think it's having any significant effects.

 

[dfwatt]

@buddhra
Beyond steady state driving road noise, did you notice any NVH improvements when hitting bumps (i.e. potholes, less that smooth roads, etc.) or washboard surfaces (i.e. series of rapid little bumps)? Tesla seems to struggle with quelling vibrations introduced to the body structure in general on their cars so any reduction of transmitted bumps might go a long way with regard to NVH. Conversely, for the Redwood kit, are the solid mounts offsetting (or perhaps even worsening) any of that impact transmission that the dampers might have helped with.

Really appreciate the video!

Small sharp impacts generally speaking are transmitted or dampened not through shock absorbers but through sidewalls and suspension bushings and other ways in which the suspension is isolated from the body. Shocks have a minimal role. Those types of impacts are too sharp for the shock to modulate them significantly, on the other hand shocks with really stiff compression valving can exacerbate them.

 

[Occhis]

@buddhra You mention in the video that you could do the install much more quickly the second time around. This is true for most major jobs when attempted for the first time. For those who are considering DIY on these, are there some tips or specific pointers you could provide to make the job a little easier and/or less time consuming?

 

[buddhra]

@buddhra You mention in the video that you could do the install much more quickly the second time around. This is true for most major jobs when attempted for the first time. For those who are considering DIY on these, are there some tips or specific pointers you could provide to make the job a little easier and/or less time consuming?

Sure! I took some video and photos along the way that I'm compiling into a blog post here: Tesla Model 3 Grand Touring Suspension Installation Tips and Review

I'll make it a priority to update over the next few days.

 

[zman222]

Finally got a video out.

Nice video focusing on ride quality and the quest for the softest "Lexus like" ride possible for our model 3s. Appreciate the honesty on the pros and cons. I still think you have it wrong that our cars that are lowered 3/4 inch or so with MPP adjustable Comfort Coilovers can not ride as well as the Redwoods because of the minimal drop. Unless you experienced such a configuration please don't state this. Too bad we live on opposite Coasts or I would love to have driven both our cars back to back for further opinions on the matter. But overall great job for all of us to see. To be honest a Lexus ride probably would turn me off in a model 3. It would kill the balance and great handling (and fun) the car is known for; especially after installing coilovers. I wouldn't change a thing now with my 3s ride and I'm not at full soft on the MPPs. It's also possible that the Model S ride is more suited for you with air shocks. Or if the 3 or model Y ever get air shocks I think that would be perfect for you.

 

[buddhra]

Nice video focusing on ride quality and the quest for the softest "Lexus like" ride possible for our model 3s. Appreciate the honesty on the pros and cons. I still think you have it wrong that our cars that are lowered 3/4 inch or so with MPP adjustable Comfort Coilovers can not ride as well as the Redwoods because of the minimal drop. Unless you experienced such a configuration please don't state this. Too bad we live on opposite Coasts or I would love to have driven both our cars back to back for further opinions on the matter. But overall great job for all of us to see. To be honest a Lexus ride probably would turn me off in a model 3. It would kill the balance and great handling (and fun) the car is known for; especially after installing coilovers. I wouldn't change a thing now with my 3s ride and I'm not at full soft on the MPPs. It's also possible that the Model S ride is more suited for you with air shocks. Or if the 3 or model Y ever get air shocks I think that would be perfect for you.

Thanks! Just to be clear, that was a general physics statement, not specific to either of these suspensions. If you design for 1" of travel vs 0.5" of travel, given the same force applied, you're going to have to double your spring rate. F=kx.

Though on that note, one thing I have been able to decipher about these two is that MPP's comfort kit likely does have higher spring rates than Redwood's. Redwood uses 7kg/mm on the rear and 5kg/mm on the front and they told me that's pretty close to stock. MPP won't tell me what they use, but according to this well-done blog post and a discussion I had with them, theirs is higher than stock. No idea how much higher, it's just a data point.

I haven't experienced MPP's kit, so I can't say one is better than the other, but as I said in the video, one of my goals was to have stock ride height and Redwood's kit can do that with no additional hardware and that was important to me. If not for that, I'd likely have chosen MPP based on cost.

 

[dfwatt]

@zman222's post illustrates exactly why I chose to pass on the MPP comfort coilovers + a lift kit when I contacted them over a year ago about developing a luxury suspension kit for us. This photo of the rear shock clearly shows how it is riding directly on the yellow bump stop. This is the same thing that happens if you put lowering springs on the stock dampers and my experience with that was awful.

View attachment 554597

To have any compression travel, at least some of the rod should be showing!

View attachment 554600

Since the MPP dampers only have a spring preload adjustment, the only way to lower the car is by dropping the spring preload which reduces compression travel. So even though the car is at the OE ride height using the lift kit, the dampers are set to a dropped ride height and have lost a lot of what limited travel the Model 3 has. For the best possible ride, we need all the travel we can get!

On the other hand, the @RedwoodMotors and Unplugged kits use threaded damper bodies. That way you can extend or reduce the damper body length independent of travel length. Now this can get you into trouble since you could have a combination of long travel and low height that could let the car smash into the ground, but you just have to be mindful of the safe ranges given in their installation guides.

I've ridden in a car with the Unplugged kit and there's no doubt it's a smoother ride than OE with more performance, but it's still performance first since it's using stiffer springs than OE because it was designed for a lower ride height. I'm sure the MPP kit has a better ride as well since they also use excellent components from KW, but that doesn't change the physics of that kit being designed to lower the car by 1" which means stiffer springs than they would otherwise have needed for a higher ride height.

That leaves the @RedwoodMotors Grand Touring kit as the only option that was designed for OE ride height and full travel which lets them use softer springs for the (hopefully!) smoothest ride.

You have passed from supporting and advertising for a manufacturer's kit to spreading disinformation about competing products. Cease and desist. You do not know what you are talking about. You know a little bit, and a little bit of knowledge is dangerous. I can point to at least 5 factual errors including the outrageous representation that the car is riding on its bump stops normally with the MPP coilover kit that you showed a picture of at the rear. Again. PLEASE cease and desist this campaign of disinformation.

 

[dfwatt]

@zman222, I understand that the arrangement of the bump stop and dust cover are different from what I thought based on the photo I pulled from their site. Would you mind sliding the bump stop down on your car for another photo so we can see how much compression travel is available?

Again, I want MPP's kit to be great and I'm sure it's an improvement over stock. I'm just not convinced that it's as good as it could be if it had been designed for OE ride height, not a 1" drop as described on their site. That's not my accusation, that's their description.

At the end of the day, I just want my $2970 to MPP or $3250 to Redwood to be the best choice for my needs. If they've both done the work, but won't share the data, and we can't try before we buy, how do we choose?

I have grown increasingly uncomfortable with your posting. You started out simply promoting Redwood products. That's fine. But you've increasingly drifted into somebody else's lane metaphorically speaking, and by this I mean you are making attributions about a competing product that first of all in many instances are counterfactual, and you are impugning the motives of somebody who does not want to reveal proprietary commercial information which constitutes intellectual property that was hard-won and difficult to come by. The notion that MPP should hand over their spec sheet to you so you can look at it and compare it with somebody else's spec sheet is really presumptuous. When they don't do this you subtly impugn their motives and their lack of quote-unquote transparency.

 

[buddhra]

I have grown increasingly uncomfortable with your posting. You started out simply promoting Redwood products. That's fine.

Hold on a minute there. I started this thread in March of 2019, 9 months before Redwood's products were even announced. This has been a journey of me looking for a suspension kit that meets my needs and being educated about several things along the way, which is the point of a forum right?

I did have some incorrect understandings and assumptions along the way and that is regrettable, but in later posts I've tried to clarify and correct them. You're quoting a post from weeks ago that I can't edit or retract, only correct in later posts, which I did. What else do you want me to do?

There is no campaign for or against anyone here. I have three criteria I wanted to meet and only one manufacturer meets all three right now. I've spent over $6000 in pursuit of this at this point and I'm happy to report I've found something that meets my needs.

 

[dfwatt]

Hold on a minute there. I started this thread in March of 2019, 9 months before Redwood's products were even announced. This has been a journey of me looking for a suspension kit that meets my needs and being educated about several things along the way, which is the point of a forum right?

I did have some incorrect understandings and assumptions along the way and that is regrettable, but in later posts I've tried to clarify and correct them. You're quoting a post from weeks ago that I can't edit or retract, only correct in later posts, which I did. What else do you want me to do?

There is no campaign for or against anyone here. I have three criteria I wanted to meet and only one manufacturer meets all three right now. I've spent over $6000 in pursuit of this at this point and I'm happy to report I've found something that meets my needs.

No one is objecting to you reporting on something that meets your needs. I think you've incorrectly tarred and feathered my post as an attack on that. I think you need to go back and re read it. I am asking you to take more responsibility for your statements about competing products which you already admitted had some serious misinformation in them. Please just look before you leap. When you fail to do that you actually discredit yourself. This is a very sophisticated group of users on the forum and they will detect that stuff and even if they don't challenge you on it you will lose credibility.

 

[P3D-R]

Another misnomer is that laymen often are stuck on "compression/bump" travel and devote less time on the "droop/rebound" travel. I will say that in my experience droop is always better than bump when it comes to grip and comfort, but there's a fine balancing act. Most companies will dyno a street or street/track damper with 2" of travel for bump because that's generally considered the standard for said street use. Droop however is what you really want so that when your car takes "air" the tire remains on the ground.

This leads me to one key difference in the design of KW versus the Ohlins setup. The KW doesn't allow you to tune in the "droop" independent of the "critical" shock length. I use the term critical because it's the minimum length of the shock assembly you need to have before encountering contact with any suspension or body components. If we assume that KW V3's at max height will go to stock height then the only droop travel you'll achieve is from the amount of compression the shock sees under static vehicle load. This can be calculated if we know the springs rates, corner weights, and motion ratios of the suspension. I know 2 of the 3 but the spring rates I don't know on the KW kits because it's not published. Now, if it's recommended to lower the KW's to a minimum of 1" then that will add 1" to your droop. With the Ohlins setup you can actually setup your optimal droop and bump travel, then adjust the shock length independently. This definitely takes additional thought and experience to do it right. Most people don't even know how to truly set this up and their assumption is always that spring preload is independent of ride height which means you can have more bump travel but that's not where the "comfort" comes from. Lots of droop means more comfort with the assumption that you're not sitting on the bumpstops under static load. This is one reason why KW's do ride so well if setup to their recommendations.