Aftermarket Suspension with OEM Height and Softer Ride

[zman222]

Can you post a picture here?

Also awaiting feedback from the member who is installing the Redwood/Onlins. Recent F80/F82/F87 (BMW M3, m4, M2) owners have struggled with QC of the Ohlins Road & Track version so hoping this isn't the case with this Redwood setup.

Sure thing. Here are pictures showing the lift kit installed. Ironically I decided to have the car lowered on Friday. They removed the lift kit and now my car sits 1.3 inches lower than stock. Why did I do this ? Well I basically had OCD while ordering thinking lowering below stock height would be a bad thing. Never lowered before. Jesse from MPP at the time said the dampers had to be set at least a little lower than stock to eliminate droop. So I figured to get the lift kit to eliminate droop since it would allow for the proper settings on the dampers to operate optimally and still stick to stock height. But after driving with the MPP hybrids for around a month now I wasn't afraid to lower it a little and realized unless you really want to raise above stock height, the lift kit doesn't really make sense. Jesse said the drop can be as little as 0.5 inches to avoid droop. So I over thought this part. I can always ebay the lift kit or keep them if I ever decide to go above stock later on. We do get snow in winter. For anyone worrying about lowering their 3 and thinking it will affect the ride, well the car handles even better than stock, as one would figure, and the ride comfort is 100% better still with the 1.3 inch drop with rough roads. To me there is no doubt about it. I may have it elevated by half an inch though because it looks just a bit too low for my comfort to avoid steep driveways. But I really love the height and drive otherwise. I really can't explain how happy I am with this purchase, minus over thinking the lift kit need.

 

[cab]

No remote adjusters for me. They just make it easier to adjust the firmness of the ride. Once I have it set to my liking, I won't likely touch it again, but somebody who wants a soft commute during the week, but likes to hit the curvy roads on the weekend may want it.

I picked up the kit yesterday and had a fun little fireside chat with Heath and Christian from Redwood for everyone's enjoyment. Assuming all goes well, I should have them installed today, so stay tuned.

Well...any early feedback? I would guess you may have some better overall control of movement, but perhaps be somewhat more aware of the "road surface" with little imperfections coming through (but bigger ones better damped)? What about road vibration (a Tesla weak link) with the more solid mount of the Ohlins - worse/same/better?

 

[buddhra]

Well...any early feedback? I would guess you may have some better overall control of movement, but perhaps be somewhat more aware of the "road surface" with little imperfections coming through (but bigger ones better damped)? What about road vibration (a Tesla weak link) with the more solid mount of the Ohlins - worse/same/better?

Short answer, I haven't installed it yet. As I was driving home from picking the kit up, my car started making an awful noise when going over bumps and turning. I spent the morning tracking it down to the upper control arm ball joint, so I need to get that fixed before replacing the suspension so Tesla can't blame its failure on the modification. It was fortunate that it happened first, but it has really screwed up my schedule here.

 

[buddhra]

@zman222's post illustrates exactly why I chose to pass on the MPP comfort coilovers + a lift kit when I contacted them over a year ago about developing a luxury suspension kit for us. This photo of the rear shock clearly shows how it is riding directly on the yellow bump stop. This is the same thing that happens if you put lowering springs on the stock dampers and my experience with that was awful.



To have any compression travel, at least some of the rod should be showing!



Since the MPP dampers only have a spring preload adjustment, the only way to lower the car is by dropping the spring preload which reduces compression travel. So even though the car is at the OE ride height using the lift kit, the dampers are set to a dropped ride height and have lost a lot of what limited travel the Model 3 has. For the best possible ride, we need all the travel we can get!

On the other hand, the @RedwoodMotors and Unplugged kits use threaded damper bodies. That way you can extend or reduce the damper body length independent of travel length. Now this can get you into trouble since you could have a combination of long travel and low height that could let the car smash into the ground, but you just have to be mindful of the safe ranges given in their installation guides.

I've ridden in a car with the Unplugged kit and there's no doubt it's a smoother ride than OE with more performance, but it's still performance first since it's using stiffer springs than OE because it was designed for a lower ride height. I'm sure the MPP kit has a better ride as well since they also use excellent components from KW, but that doesn't change the physics of that kit being designed to lower the car by 1" which means stiffer springs than they would otherwise have needed for a higher ride height.

That leaves the @RedwoodMotors Grand Touring kit as the only option that was designed for OE ride height and full travel which lets them use softer springs for the (hopefully!) smoothest ride.

 

[MountainPass]

@zman222's post illustrates exactly why I chose to pass on the MPP comfort coilovers + a lift kit when I contacted them over a year ago about developing a luxury suspension kit for us. This photo of the rear shock clearly shows how it is riding directly on the yellow bump stop. This is the same thing that happens if you put lowering springs on the stock dampers and my experience with that was awful.

View attachment 554597

To have any compression travel, at least some of the rod should be showing!

View attachment 554600

Since the MPP dampers only have a spring preload adjustment, the only way to lower the car is by dropping the spring preload which reduces compression travel. So even though the car is at the OE ride height using the lift kit, the dampers are set to a dropped ride height and have lost a lot of what limited travel the Model 3 has. For the best possible ride, we need all the travel we can get!

On the other hand, the @RedwoodMotors and Unplugged kits use threaded damper bodies. That way you can extend or reduce the damper body length independent of travel length. Now this can get you into trouble since you could have a combination of long travel and low height that could let the car smash into the ground, but you just have to be mindful of the safe ranges given in their installation guides.

I've ridden in a car with the Unplugged kit and there's no doubt it's a smoother ride than OE with more performance, but it's still performance first since it's using stiffer springs than OE because it was designed for a lower ride height. I'm sure the MPP kit has a better ride as well since they also use excellent components from KW, but that doesn't change the physics of that kit being designed to lower the car by 1" which means stiffer springs than they would otherwise have needed for a higher ride height.

That leaves the @RedwoodMotors Grand Touring kit as the only option that was designed for OE ride height and full travel which lets them use softer springs for the (hopefully!) smoothest ride.

I'm sorry - your information is not only totally wrong, it's actually backwards.

The picture of the rear bump stop pictured shows the bump stop at the top (it will hold itself at the top due to friction) - but there is a dust boot below it and there is quite a lot of damper shaft available before the damper touches the bump rubber engages - in fact, it is the exact amount as without the lift kit.

You see, the spacer for the spring is the same as the spacer for the damper, so the travel is identical.

The reason your information is backward is because without the lift kit damper spacers, the suspension would have less droop travel, but actually MORE compression travel! The spacers achieve the same thing as adjusting the body length.

I'd be happy to send a set of our comfort adjustable coilovers + a lift kit to anyone that would like to try them against the competition, on condition that if our suspension is rated more comfortable by an agreed panel of judges, that you buy them on the spot and write a full review of the comparison. Talk is cheap.

 

[MountainPass]

Sure thing. Here are pictures showing the lift kit installed. Ironically I decided to have the car lowered on Friday. They removed the lift kit and now my car sits 1.3 inches lower than stock. Why did I do this ? Well I basically had OCD while ordering thinking lowering below stock height would be a bad thing. Never lowered before. Jesse from MPP at the time said the dampers had to be set at least a little lower than stock to eliminate droop. So I figured to get the lift kit to eliminate droop since it would allow for the proper settings on the dampers to operate optimally and still stick to stock height. But after driving with the MPP hybrids for around a month now I wasn't afraid to lower it a little and realized unless you really want to raise above stock height, the lift kit doesn't really make sense. Jesse said the drop can be as little as 0.5 inches to avoid droop. So I over thought this part. I can always ebay the lift kit or keep them if I ever decide to go above stock later on. We do get snow in winter. For anyone worrying about lowering their 3 and thinking it will affect the ride, well the car handles even better than stock, as one would figure, and the ride comfort is 100% better still with the 1.3 inch drop with rough roads. To me there is no doubt about it. I may have it elevated by half an inch though because it looks just a bit too low for my comfort to avoid steep driveways. But I really love the height and drive otherwise. I really can't explain how happy I am with this purchase, minus over thinking the lift kit need. View attachment 554453 View attachment 554452 View attachment 554454 View attachment 554458

Thank you for the kind words!! It makes us so happy to hear this. We are happy to help you with the lift kit sale if you decide to sell it. It is true that the lift kit is only designed for those that wants to raise the car above stock.

 

[buddhra]

I'm sorry - your information is not only totally wrong, it's actually backwards.

The picture of the rear bump stop pictured shows the bump stop at the top (it will hold itself at the top due to friction) - but there is a dust boot below it and there is quite a lot of damper shaft available before the damper touches the bump rubber engages - in fact, it is the exact amount as without the lift kit.

You see, the spacer for the spring is the same as the spacer for the damper, so the travel is identical.

The reason your information is backward is because without the lift kit damper spacers, the suspension would have less droop travel, but actually MORE compression travel! The spacers achieve the same thing as adjusting the body length.

I'd be happy to send a set of our comfort adjustable coilovers + a lift kit to anyone that would like to try them against the competition, on condition that if our suspension is rated more comfortable by an agreed panel of judges, that you buy them on the spot and write a full review of the comparison. Talk is cheap.

Please send a kit to review! I asked for a way to test this over a year ago and you told me to go find someone with it. These suspensions are so expensive and difficult to compare and you guys hold your specs so secret it's really hard to shop for these! It's like every company wants us to believe this stuff is voodoo magic and only they know how to do it and they won't reveal their secrets. At this point, Redwood has been the most forthcoming with me about what they're using and why.

If my understanding is so backwards, it would be very helpful if you could provide a diagram showing how this all works and why adding a lift kit to a lowering suspension is the optimal solution.

 

[zman222]

Please send a kit to review! I asked for a way to test this over a year ago and you told me to go find someone with it. These suspensions are so expensive and difficult to compare and you guys hold your specs so secret it's really hard to shop for these! It's like every company wants us to believe this stuff is voodoo magic and only they know how to do it and they won't reveal their secrets. At this point, Redwood has been the most forthcoming with me about what they're using and why.

If my understanding is so backwards, it would be very helpful if you could provide a diagram showing how this all works and why adding a lift kit to a lowering suspension is the optimal solution.

Sorry you feel this way buddra. Have you visited MPPs site? They recently posted explaining why their dampers feel more comfortable. It's under recent posts | suspension tech. They have also made it very clear that they put lots of time into R&D. So the data they get is their data that ultimately goes into making our KW dampers. I'm fine with that. Maybe you've purchased a lot of items that truly were falsely advertised, but it's pretty unfair to make accusations on this site that are blatantly false since you don't own their products. The lift kit set at stock height, combined with the MPP hybrid comforts (now called comfort adjustable dampers) allowed me to glide through rough patches of road that I used to swerve around because the bumps completely upset the model 3s ride. I say this from ownership. I have nothing bad to say about Redwood and welcome more options for us all. But MPP really has great products and customer service.

 

[zman222]

Can you post a picture here?

Also awaiting feedback from the member who is installing the Redwood/Onlins. Recent F80/F82/F87 (BMW M3, m4, M2) owners have struggled with QC of the Ohlins Road & Track version so hoping this isn't the case with this Redwood setup.

Books what do you mean that owners have struggled with QC of the Ohlins R&T version ?

 

[buddhra]

Sorry you feel this way buddra. Have you visited MPPs site? They recently posted explaining why their dampers feel more comfortable. It's under recent posts | suspension tech. They have also made it very clear that they put lots of time into R&D. So the data they get is their data that ultimately goes into making our KW dampers. I'm fine with that. Maybe you've purchased a lot of items that truly were falsely advertised, but it's pretty unfair to make accusations on this site that are blatantly false since you don't own their products. The lift kit set at stock height, combined with the MPP hybrid comforts (now called comfort adjustable dampers) allowed me to glide through rough patches of road that I used to swerve around because the bumps completely upset the model 3s ride. I say this from ownership. I have nothing bad to say about Redwood and welcome more options for us all. But MPP really has great products and customer service.

I definitely have no intention of making false accusations and as I've said already, I have first hand experience that the Unplugged kit is an improvement over stock and I'm sure the MPP kit is as well, but is it as good as it could be given that it's designed to drop the ride height? My understanding of physics is that if you drop the height you must increase the spring rate to compensate.

Since a side by side comparison is very difficult, one way we could compare these options is based on specs. Unplugged and MPP won't even tell us what spring rates they are using, but Redwood will. I just want to be an informed consumer.

 

[buddhra]

Sorry you feel this way buddra. Have you visited MPPs site? They recently posted explaining why their dampers feel more comfortable. It's under recent posts | suspension tech. They have also made it very clear that they put lots of time into R&D. So the data they get is their data that ultimately goes into making our KW dampers. I'm fine with that. Maybe you've purchased a lot of items that truly were falsely advertised, but it's pretty unfair to make accusations on this site that are blatantly false since you don't own their products. The lift kit set at stock height, combined with the MPP hybrid comforts (now called comfort adjustable dampers) allowed me to glide through rough patches of road that I used to swerve around because the bumps completely upset the model 3s ride. I say this from ownership. I have nothing bad to say about Redwood and welcome more options for us all. But MPP really has great products and customer service.

@zman222, I understand that the arrangement of the bump stop and dust cover are different from what I thought based on the photo I pulled from their site. Would you mind sliding the bump stop down on your car for another photo so we can see how much compression travel is available?

Again, I want MPP's kit to be great and I'm sure it's an improvement over stock. I'm just not convinced that it's as good as it could be if it had been designed for OE ride height, not a 1" drop as described on their site. That's not my accusation, that's their description.

At the end of the day, I just want my $2970 to MPP or $3250 to Redwood to be the best choice for my needs. If they've both done the work, but won't share the data, and we can't try before we buy, how do we choose?

 

[ToTheMoon]

I just ordered a Model 3 and can't wait to see how this thread resolves. I have the same goal as OP.

 

[zman222]

I definitely have no intention of making false accusations and as I've said already, I have first hand experience that the Unplugged kit is an improvement over stock and I'm sure the MPP kit is as well, but is it as good as it could be given that it's designed to drop the ride height? My understanding of physics is that if you drop the height you must increase the spring rate to compensate.

Since a side by side comparison is very difficult, one way we could compare these options is based on specs. Unplugged and MPP won't even tell us what spring rates they are using, but Redwood will. I just want to be an informed consumer.

I really hope your purchase works out for you. It sounds like you are agonizing over your decision and leaning towards Redwoods from what you have said obviously. All I can offer is my real world experience with MPP. Simply put, they offered a solution that allowed me to keep stock height and yet increase comfort to very normal levels now with enhanced feel and handling. I was not disappointed in the least. MPPs kit /with lift kit combo gives me more options to raise or lower my car as a bonus since I do live where it snows. I personally am not looking back whatsoever and I did consider the Redwood Touring as well. Also keep in mind that MPP has made minor modifications from their first batch release a couple years ago that refined their products even further from lessons learned. So you get a time tested and refined product now with MPP VS Redwoods first run. Again, I like it that Redwoods offers us all more options. Just be sure you provide facts based on real world experience for us all to absorb.

 

[ULEWZ]

For whats its worth, I only lowered 1/2 inch and that only required an alignment which you will have to do no matter what you install. No extra parts, and no scraping. I have a steep driveway that my Vette always scraped on the way down, and I do not even come close to scraping with my slightly lowered MP3. I think worrying about scraping with only 1/2 inch lowering is overrated.

 

[jselbie]

@zman222,If they've both done the work, but won't share the data, and we can't try before we buy, how do we choose?

I think what's really needed is some preview of "before" and "after" such an upgrade. Such a video on YouTube might have any of the following:

1. With the car lifted or the wheels off, a walk though of how the stock suspension is mounted. Followed by a time lapsed video of the installation, followed by a similar walk though of what the suspension looks like after, the ride height difference, etc... The more informed I am, the more likely I would buy into this.

2. Be scientific about it. Take vibration meter measurements while driving across a bumpy road and across speed bumps. Preferably a professional tool to measure, not a phone app. Show The before and after. Show the graph plots or relevant values of each run. Repeat this experiment on different road types and at different driving speeds.

3. Get a couple of people to take the Pepsi challenge. Drive a few willing participants down the road in Car A and then again in Car B. One has the upgraded suspension and the other isn't. What do the participants say? Do they even notice?

@buddhra - are you planning on doing anything like this on your video channel after you get your other issue fixed?

 

[MountainPass]

Please send a kit to review! I asked for a way to test this over a year ago and you told me to go find someone with it. These suspensions are so expensive and difficult to compare and you guys hold your specs so secret it's really hard to shop for these! It's like every company wants us to believe this stuff is voodoo magic and only they know how to do it and they won't reveal their secrets. At this point, Redwood has been the most forthcoming with me about what they're using and why.

If my understanding is so backwards, it would be very helpful if you could provide a diagram showing how this all works and why adding a lift kit to a lowering suspension is the optimal solution.

No problem. Let us know when your Redwood kit is installed and we will send the Comfort Adjustable kit your way.

 

[ToTheMoon]

Ordered the Redwood kit. It's on backorder for ~3 weeks. I'll do some kind of before/after data collection.

 

[P3D-R]

Can you post a picture here?

Also awaiting feedback from the member who is installing the Redwood/Onlins. Recent F80/F82/F87 (BMW M3, m4, M2) owners have struggled with QC of the Ohlins Road & Track version so hoping this isn't the case with this Redwood setup.

I'm not sure what components are giving problems to the BMW community but the Redwood/Ohlins product is only using the Ohlins damper/dustboots. The rest of the product is all CNC'd and designed by Redwood. Just a FYI on that.

 

[P3D-R]

@zman222's post illustrates exactly why I chose to pass on the MPP comfort coilovers + a lift kit when I contacted them over a year ago about developing a luxury suspension kit for us. This photo of the rear shock clearly shows how it is riding directly on the yellow bump stop. This is the same thing that happens if you put lowering springs on the stock dampers and my experience with that was awful.

View attachment 554597

To have any compression travel, at least some of the rod should be showing!

View attachment 554600

Since the MPP dampers only have a spring preload adjustment, the only way to lower the car is by dropping the spring preload which reduces compression travel. So even though the car is at the OE ride height using the lift kit, the dampers are set to a dropped ride height and have lost a lot of what limited travel the Model 3 has. For the best possible ride, we need all the travel we can get!

On the other hand, the @RedwoodMotors and Unplugged kits use threaded damper bodies. That way you can extend or reduce the damper body length independent of travel length. Now this can get you into trouble since you could have a combination of long travel and low height that could let the car smash into the ground, but you just have to be mindful of the safe ranges given in their installation guides.

I've ridden in a car with the Unplugged kit and there's no doubt it's a smoother ride than OE with more performance, but it's still performance first since it's using stiffer springs than OE because it was designed for a lower ride height. I'm sure the MPP kit has a better ride as well since they also use excellent components from KW, but that doesn't change the physics of that kit being designed to lower the car by 1" which means stiffer springs than they would otherwise have needed for a higher ride height.

That leaves the @RedwoodMotors Grand Touring kit as the only option that was designed for OE ride height and full travel which lets them use softer springs for the (hopefully!) smoothest ride.

Hi Buddra,

Sorry to say but MPP is correct. The image you reference can be misleading to the layman eyes. I've been installing KW and Ohlins for quite some time now not to mention several other Japanese brands like Tein for the past 20 years. The nature of the KW bumpstop and dustboot is that you cannot see the damper shaft but it is there. It only gives the perception that there's no bump travel left because the bumpstop resides above the dustboot rather than within it. Secondly, adjusting dampers at the lower shock bracket is not the "correct" way to setup the suspension. There are things that are crucial to preventing the car from bottoming out or having sway bars hit tie rods or wheels hit the top of the fender or battery packs contacting the pavement, etc.... There's a numerous amount of things to consider when designing/engineering a track worth setup. The independent lower shock bracket can allow a user to lower their car without sacrificing compression travel but it's really the droop that gives you that nice ride. you need far more droop than compression in my experience. Say for instance the car only has 2" of clearance from the ground to the battery pack but your suspension has 3" of compression to it. This can be a bad situation. It's like these super slammed cars that are scraping exhaust on the freeway and leaving sparks in their trails. With that said, even Redwood is very explicit about the position of that lower bracket and not to deviate from their recommendations. Only the experienced tuner should go outside of their recommendations and fully understand the sacrifices/compromises that will be made.

Both products are amazing. I've been in both. They do have their own set of differences but those are not details I care to get into. Comparing how ride height is adjusted seems trivial to me. The questions to ask are comparing the actual damper technologies. Let's see how the vendors can respond to that.

1. How is KW's twin tube damper different than others?
2. How does KW's twin dube damper compare to Ohlins monotube DFV damper ?
3. What are the differences in coatings between the two? Is one superior to the other
4. Are there weight differences between the two setups? This has never been a concern of mine for street cars but since Tesla owners can be very weight conscientious we might as well pose that question. Ohlins is typically aluminum vs steel on KW.
5. What are the damper replacement costs? Can they be easily revalved or just replace the whole damper cartridge?
6. Are there differences between the Swift springs vs the KW springs?

In my opinion, these are questions that can be answered factually. Trying to compare ride quality on the internet is just a waste of time. It's very subjective and the only way is to go for a ride or do what MPP is offering. Test and compare yourself. That's commendable. I have already done this comparison but my review will have no bearing on another's preference which is why I will remain silent about it.

Your friendly neighborhood suspension guy,
P3D-R

 

[buddhra]

Hi Buddra,

Sorry to say but MPP is correct. The image you reference can be misleading to the layman eyes. I've been installing KW and Ohlins for quite some time now not to mention several other Japanese brands like Tein for the past 20 years. The nature of the KW bumpstop and dustboot is that you cannot see the damper shaft but it is there. It only gives the perception that there's no bump travel left because the bumpstop resides above the dustboot rather than within it. Secondly, adjusting dampers at the lower shock bracket is not the "correct" way to setup the suspension. There are things that are crucial to preventing the car from bottoming out or having sway bars hit tie rods or wheels hit the top of the fender or battery packs contacting the pavement, etc.... There's a numerous amount of things to consider when designing/engineering a track worth setup. The independent lower shock bracket can allow a user to lower their car without sacrificing compression travel but it's really the droop that gives you that nice ride. you need far more droop than compression in my experience. Say for instance the car only has 2" of clearance from the ground to the battery pack but your suspension has 3" of compression to it. This can be a bad situation. It's like these super slammed cars that are scraping exhaust on the freeway and leaving sparks in their trails. With that said, even Redwood is very explicit about the position of that lower bracket and not to deviate from their recommendations. Only the experienced tuner should go outside of their recommendations and fully understand the sacrifices/compromises that will be made.

Both products are amazing. I've been in both. They do have their own set of differences but those are not details I care to get into. Comparing how ride height is adjusted seems trivial to me. The questions to ask are comparing the actual damper technologies. Let's see how the vendors can respond to that.

1. How is KW's twin tube damper different than others?
2. How does KW's twin dube damper compare to Ohlins monotube DFV damper ?
3. What are the differences in coatings between the two? Is one superior to the other
4. Are there weight differences between the two setups? This has never been a concern of mine for street cars but since Tesla owners can be very weight conscientious we might as well pose that question. Ohlins is typically aluminum vs steel on KW.
5. What are the damper replacement costs? Can they be easily revalved or just replace the whole damper cartridge?
6. Are there differences between the Swift springs vs the KW springs?

In my opinion, these are questions that can be answered factually. Trying to compare ride quality on the internet is just a waste of time. It's very subjective and the only way is to go for a ride or do what MPP is offering. Test and compare yourself. That's commendable. I have already done this comparison but my review will have no bearing on another's preference which is why I will remain silent about it.

Your friendly neighborhood suspension guy,
P3D-R

Thanks for the explanation. I get that the shaft is hidden behind the dust cover. My mistake.

Can you explain more why droop is more important for the street. I certainly understand needing that travel for a pothole, for example, but isn't compression travel equally needed for a bump?

I'm totally on board with the adjustable damper length not being important if it's properly designed and that it could be a liability if it's adjusted too low. In MPP's case, they've already defined that distance and in Redwood's case they set it for you to make sure you're not risking your battery hitting the ground. All things being equal, there's no difference there. You just adjust the spring perch up and down to set height in either one. As you lower the spring, the damper compresses, moving closer to the bump stop so that minimum clearance to the ground is maintained.

Here's the part I'm not understanding though. The MPP kit is designed for a 1" drop. If I want a stock ride height with MPP, I have to use a 1.75" lift kit which puts me above stock ride height. To get back down, I have to lower the spring perch by 0.75" putting me closer to the bump stop. Do I not lose 0.75" of compression travel by doing that?

Also, by designing the suspension for a 1" drop, do they not have to use a stiffer spring than if it was designed for no drop?