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Almost 15% range loss Model 3 Awd

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UPDATE!!!

I scheduled a new SC appointment yesterday. Today I got an sms saying that they looked into my car and that the battery modules are unbalanced. I knew cells could be unbalanced but not whole modules, interesting.... Someone had this problem?
I think they meant cells. Please make sure to get as much information as possible. Ask how many mV(miliVolts) the imbalance is, should be more than 30-40 to make any difference.

And also watch Bjørns first ScanMyTesla Video, his cells were also imbalanced I think around 24mV, but once he discharged and charged back up they balanced each other. I think Tesla will do the same, but ask them specific questions and ask for answers, even if they don't want not, it is your battery you have to have full information even in writing as it is warranty.
 
For the model S it works like this:
fullkWhNom/charge constant = rated miles.
For example, for a 100% charge of 301 rated miles, then the full pack would read 301 x .245 = 73.745 kWh, or displayed value of 73.7.

It might be different for the model 3 though, I haven't seen the data for those.
It kind of works like this, but I managed to track my constant at about 155Wh/km, the straight line when I drive, which is more like 248. But it could be 150...
155 makes sense, because a new pack is around 77.5-78 so 77.5/15.5 is 500km

Maybe if you guys switch to km, that will help as there are 0.6 rounding error in miles. What is your typical line in your Energy graph in km?
 
It kind of works like this, but I managed to track my constant at about 155Wh/km, the straight line when I drive, which is more like 248. But it could be 150...
155 makes sense, because a new pack is around 77.5-78 so 77.5/15.5 is 500km

The line is at ~156Wh/rkm (I can try tomorrow using km if I remember), which is ~250Wh/rmi.

For some reason it is at ~156Wh/rkm, yet the calculations on that same screen are done with ~245Wh/rmi (~153Wh/rkm). (I would guess the reason is that all the other displayed Wh on the charging screen, etc, are scaled values of actual Wh; the 250Wh/rmi*310rmi = 77.5kWh does make sense for a "real" capacity, when it comes to rated range...which of course you will need to drive below 0 rated miles to actually get. But it's confusing to speculate about these reasons and I would prefer not to, until we understand how all the different Wh relate to one another (they appear to all be scaled differently with respect to one another). In any case, there is no reason to think that any meter in the car needs to represent an actual accurate reading of a Wh.)

List of line positions and constants
 
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I'm not sure that the apparent match of fullkWhNom to the formula 301*0.245 is anything other than a coincidence.
I don’t think it is a coincidence. If the calculations are the same for the model 3 as the model S, which it appears they might be, then you will see that result in every case. The SOC that the car displays, also called SOC from the CAN, is using the exact formula you showed in your earlier post. Assuming that the display and CAN SOC were 54%, then the SOC that you would use for the remainingkWhnom value would be about 56% ( The same calculation with the buffer from the numerator and denominator removed). I think this is called SOC UI from the CAN. In that case, the remainingkWhnom would be around 41.3 kWh, not 40 kWh, assuming a 3.3 kWh buffer like you were using in your numbers.

So I don’t believe you need a new charge constant to explain the CAN data, but it is difficult to understand exactly why Tesla does certain things the way they do.
 
The SOC that the car displays, also called SOC from the CAN, is using the exact formula you showed in your earlier post. Assuming that the display and CAN SOC were 54%, then the SOC that you would use for the remainingkWhnom value would be about 56% ( The same calculation with the buffer from the numerator and denominator removed). I think this is called SOC UI from the CAN. In that case, the remainingkWhnom would be around 41.3 kWh, not 40 kWh, assuming a 3.3 kWh buffer like you were using in your numbers.

So I don’t believe you need a new charge constant to explain the CAN data, but it is difficult to understand exactly why Tesla does certain things the way they do.

You're right. It's true that formula may work always for fullkWhNom; I am just saying it can't be extrapolated to OTHER states of charge; you can't conclude that remainkWhnom = remaining rated miles * charge constant. That formula definitely just does not hold - pretty clear from the CAN bus readbacks posted here that each rated mile is not equal to the charge constant Wh value (245Wh/rmi). That was really my only point I guess. And you're right, it may not be coincidence at all. That may well be the exact formula.

A contradicting point though: some data posted around here has indicated that a new full battery gives fullKWhNom = 77.9kWh (or something very close to that). There's no way to explain that - for an LR AWD that would be 318 rated miles at 100% - and I've never seen that. Nor has it been reported that such a battery stays "stuck" at 310 miles for a period of time of driving (so it's not a display cap). So that datapoint would not match that formula.

Worth stating again though: For all these numbers, just because the formula, the trip meter, the CAN bus, etc., say that the capacity of the battery is 76kWh or 78kWh (or whatever), it does not mean that's the actual battery available capacity - obviously the actual capacity could be something entirely different - and very likely it is different, as it will of course actually match the EPA 79kWh after 4000 miles (with some car-to-car variation). It's all just a harmless scaling factor of course.

Regarding the SOC, based on what I see above, what the CAN bus reports for SoC (even the value of SOCui) never matches what the car UI displays. I don't have a CAN reader so really have no idea; just basing on reports above. But there is no CAN bus "SoC" reading which matches what the car shows - regardless of which SoC you're talking about. (There were four values from 55.8% to 60%; actual UI reading was 54% (close to 55%).)

Regarding your formula suggested - yes - not sure why I did not conclude yesterday that SOCmin is closest to the formula remainkWhnom/fullkWhnom...but that certainly is a possibility for the formula. It's not perfect though. What the other various SoCs reported are, I have no idea. But none of them match the car UI.

The SoC in the car appears to always simply be the formula I gave above (remainingkWhNom - bufferkWh) / (fullkWh - bufferkWn), of course.

Anyway, picture becoming a bit more clear...just a few more readbacks at different states of charge with adequate documentation of the exact state during the readback, and some comparison to the trip meter, and it will all become clear about how the trip meter, CAN bus, and charging screen relate.
 
Yes, it is around 156 is my feeling too. Can you check in km and take a screenshot both at 155 and 156?

This is for a Performance. Getting pretty tired of these pictures... :rolleyes:

I wasn't able to get to 156 before stopping, but obviously (since the dashed line is below it) it is above 155Wh/rkm in this picture. Pretty sure it is 156 Wh/rkm though.

And you can see that (also obviously) 153Wh/rkm is used for the calculation, as previously discussed. (The constant used for the calculation is always 5Wh/mi lower than the rated line and matches the charging constant.)

IMG_6011.jpg
 
Hi, I have read about people losing range over time in their model 3s. ...

I have tried several times 100%-0%-100%, nothing helps. Tesla did actually do a diagnostics but found nothing, and they do not wanna help me anymore because they don't see this as a problem. Anyone experience THIS much range loss?

I have a LR AWD
I hope you are not driving down under 10% or so on a regular basis. And you shouldn’t even drive it down to near 0 to recover range at any time.
 
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I am almost the same situation as you with my 219 Model 3 SR+. When I picked my Model3 SR+ up on September 28th, 2019 they had a deal going on where it would include 2 years of free charging. I commute from the East San Francisco Bay Area to the Valley as a RN several days a week, at the time I was spending about $25/day (~$100-125/week/~$500mo) on gas and when I was informed about the promotion for the model 3 I jumped on it. Due to not being able to charge at home, I have been using the super chargers since taking delivery. Since picking it up, I have lost MAJOR range. Range when I bought it was about 230+/- miles with a full (100%) charge. I have been charging it up to about 90% at the super chargers since taking delivery. 6 months (exactly to this day) later, my range is approximately 150+/- miles with a full (100%) charge and I now hit 21,000 on the odometer as of this morning. I haven’t changed my driving habits (don’t drive slow, but I don’t treat it like a race car). Anyone else having anything close to my problem? I know am one of the few people that have bought my car for the sole purpose to drive it and enjoy it as well as make it my daily. Tesla said that the battery is “smart and will notify me/them if something was not correct” but this doesn’t feel normal. I know some people are getting ~10% loss of range after a period of time/mileage however I am at almost a 40% loss of range in such a short amount of time. Any suggestions or tips? Or what should I do?
 
I am almost the same situation as you with my 219 Model 3 SR+. When I picked my Model3 SR+ up on September 28th, 2019 they had a deal going on where it would include 2 years of free charging. I commute from the East San Francisco Bay Area to the Valley as a RN several days a week, at the time I was spending about $25/day (~$100-125/week/~$500mo) on gas and when I was informed about the promotion for the model 3 I jumped on it. Due to not being able to charge at home, I have been using the super chargers since taking delivery. Since picking it up, I have lost MAJOR range. Range when I bought it was about 230+/- miles with a full (100%) charge. I have been charging it up to about 90% at the super chargers since taking delivery. 6 months (exactly to this day) later, my range is approximately 150+/- miles with a full (100%) charge and I now hit 21,000 on the odometer as of this morning. I haven’t changed my driving habits (don’t drive slow, but I don’t treat it like a race car). Anyone else having anything close to my problem? I know am one of the few people that have bought my car for the sole purpose to drive it and enjoy it as well as make it my daily. Tesla said that the battery is “smart and will notify me/them if something was not correct” but this doesn’t feel normal. I know some people are getting ~10% loss of range after a period of time/mileage however I am at almost a 40% loss of range in such a short amount of time. Any suggestions or tips? Or what should I do?
Do you have a screenshot of 150 miles at 100%
Post it here and contact Tesla. There is no way for them to turn you down if you have 40% less range.
Also, you charged on a Supercharger all the time(no lvl 1 or lvl2 at all?) for total 21000miles?
What is your charging pattern on the Supercharger, what % to what %?
 
I am almost the same situation as you with my 219 Model 3 SR+. When I picked my Model3 SR+ up on September 28th, 2019 they had a deal going on where it would include 2 years of free charging. I commute from the East San Francisco Bay Area to the Valley as a RN several days a week, at the time I was spending about $25/day (~$100-125/week/~$500mo) on gas and when I was informed about the promotion for the model 3 I jumped on it. Due to not being able to charge at home, I have been using the super chargers since taking delivery. Since picking it up, I have lost MAJOR range. Range when I bought it was about 230+/- miles with a full (100%) charge. I have been charging it up to about 90% at the super chargers since taking delivery. 6 months (exactly to this day) later, my range is approximately 150+/- miles with a full (100%) charge and I now hit 21,000 on the odometer as of this morning. I haven’t changed my driving habits (don’t drive slow, but I don’t treat it like a race car). Anyone else having anything close to my problem? I know am one of the few people that have bought my car for the sole purpose to drive it and enjoy it as well as make it my daily. Tesla said that the battery is “smart and will notify me/them if something was not correct” but this doesn’t feel normal. I know some people are getting ~10% loss of range after a period of time/mileage however I am at almost a 40% loss of range in such a short amount of time. Any suggestions or tips? Or what should I do?

The warranty guarantees no more than 30% range loss at 100,000 miles if I remember correctly.

As mentioned above a screen shot of the car showing 150 miles at 100% charge would be helpful.
 
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Do you have a screenshot of 150 miles at 100%
Post it here and contact Tesla. There is no way for them to turn you down if you have 40% less range.
Also, you charged on a Supercharger all the time(no lvl 1 or lvl2 at all?) for total 21000miles?
What is your charging pattern on the Supercharger, what % to what %?

When I charge to 100% it states about 180-ish on the screen, but in reality it’s about 150. And I have only been using the superchargers when charging (v2 and v3 because the availability of supercharging in the Bay Area/Fremont Area). I have used my buddies home charger a handful of times over the past few months (he has a 3 performance and is the reason why I got mine haha). When I charge, my battery varies from 10-25% when I plug in to about 85-95% when I leave (I hardly am able to justify spending the extra 15 minutes for 5% to reach the 100% mark).
 
The warranty guarantees no more than 30% range loss at 100,000 miles if I remember correctly.

As mentioned above a screen shot of the car showing 150 miles at 100% charge would be helpful.
I have an appointment set up on April 2nd at the Service Center, and I brought this situation of range loss up to them last time I brought it in for a service about a month ago. (Im going back because they were supposed to fix a trim piece which was not aligned and they stated they did, but they didn’t touch it and I have a photo of it before they “fixed” it and i guess they replaced it in the exact same size and exact same off-alignment.
 
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When I charge to 100% it states about 180-ish on the screen, but in reality it’s about 150. And I have only been using the superchargers when charging (v2 and v3 because the availability of supercharging in the Bay Area/Fremont Area). I have used my buddies home charger a handful of times over the past few months (he has a 3 performance and is the reason why I got mine haha). When I charge, my battery varies from 10-25% when I plug in to about 85-95% when I leave (I hardly am able to justify spending the extra 15 minutes for 5% to reach the 100% mark).

All that matters for degradation is the number on the screen. That’s the total pack capacity divided by the EPA Wh/mi.

It sounds like you have more of a consumption issue and less of a capacity issue. What is your Wh/mi? EPA is something like 230 Wh/mi.

A pic of rated range at 100% and a pic of a typical trip odometer with Wh/mi would be really useful both here and at the service center.
 
All that matters for degradation is the number on the screen. That’s the total pack capacity divided by the EPA Wh/mi.

It sounds like you have more of a consumption issue and less of a capacity issue. What is your Wh/mi? EPA is something like 230 Wh/mi.

A pic of rated range at 100% and a pic of a typical trip odometer with Wh/mi would be really useful both here and at the service center.
When I get off work today in a few hours I’ll go charge it to 100% and post back
 
Perfect. Also take a shot of the “since most recent charge” trip odometer before you start charging.
I remember doing something like this back in December and I still got photos.
100% = 228mi
Charging at 64% I had 148mi remaining
According to my “Since Last Charge”
58.6mi driven; 16kWh; 274Wh/mi

But then again, this was on December 7, 2019, I’ll update this post after I’m off work with my current information
 

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I assume your last charge before this one was at 90%

If I do the reverse math 90-64= 25-26% give or take, might be 26.5%

Which yields about 62-64kWh total, which is way off from the 72-75kWh you should have.

But it seems your estimation that you charge from 20-90% is not correct - if you do a lot of these topups from 65-90% it really could be another case of messed up BMS.

Ask them to reset your BMS (CAC Reset) at the service and if they say they don't do that or don't understand, insist on them talking to Fremont and asking for a CAC reset due to BMS(battery management) miss-calibration. Before they brush you off with -"You can read anything on these forums", tell them that the info comes directly from the Tesla internal manual and ask them to confirm with Tesla Fremont that this is true.

If they try to brush you off - talk to the manager and tell them that you are not leaving until you get what you asked for done.

And report back here to see what happens. This will help others in the forum.
 
I assume your last charge before this one was at 90%

If I do the reverse math 90-64= 25-26% give or take, might be 26.5%

Which yields about 62-64kWh total, which is way off from the 72-75kWh you should have.

But it seems your estimation that you charge from 20-90% is not correct - if you do a lot of these topups from 65-90% it really could be another case of messed up BMS.

Ask them to reset your BMS (CAC Reset) at the service and if they say they don't do that or don't understand, insist on them talking to Fremont and asking for a CAC reset due to BMS(battery management) miss-calibration. Before they brush you off with -"You can read anything on these forums", tell them that the info comes directly from the Tesla internal manual and ask them to confirm with Tesla Fremont that this is true.

If they try to brush you off - talk to the manager and tell them that you are not leaving until you get what you asked for done.

And report back here to see what happens. This will help others in the forum.
It was charge from 100% which yielded the 228mi back in December. And I very rarely do a charge from 65% to 90% but I did that day just to find out that information posted above.


Information as of yesterday/this morning:
I supercharged from 17%(“37mi”) to 70% then drove to my friends house down the street and left my car to charge to 100% via his 220v. I got to the car this morning and this is what is happening:
100% somehow jumped to “226mi” which is the highest I’ve seen in weeks (did a 100% charge via supercharging about a month ago and that was somewhere in the 180-190mi range).
Display: 100% = 226mi
**Drive to work: 74.8mi**
Display: 50% = 113mi
74.8mi/23kWh/303Wh/mi
 

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It was charge from 100% which yielded the 228mi back in December. And I very rarely do a charge from 65% to 90% but I did that day just to find out that information posted above.


Information as of yesterday/this morning:
I supercharged from 17%(“37mi”) to 70% then drove to my friends house down the street and left my car to charge to 100% via his 220v. I got to the car this morning and this is what is happening:
100% somehow jumped to “226mi” which is the highest I’ve seen in weeks (did a 100% charge via supercharging about a month ago and that was somewhere in the 180-190mi range).
Display: 100% = 226mi
**Drive to work: 74.8mi**
Display: 50% = 113mi
74.8mi/23kWh/303Wh/mi

Doing a quick search it seems a bunch of SR+ are seeing 220-230 @100%. So it doesn’t seem like your 100% is out of the norm. Do you have 20” wheels? Did you stop on that drive to work? If not it looks like your avg speed was less than 60mph and 303 wh/mile seems high. Unless you had the heater blasting maybe...but with temps at 57deg I wouldn’t presume so. I’d expect that wh/mile from a p3d+ maybe but not a rwd with aero wheels.
 
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