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I also disagree that utilities will be raising rates to compensate for their losses as solar really accelerates and grows. They will not be able to raise rates, because more people will go solar and lead to a utility death spiral. Another reason they cannot raise rates is because utilities sell at LMP's a.k.a. marginal cost. So if utilities get stuck with stranded assets, they will sell energy at cost of production in order to keep them running to pay bills. As load falls off as more people go solar, wholesale electricity prices will plummet and utilities will start going bankrupt, and only those with the most efficient power plants will survive. There is nothing they can do.

So even though I suspect that ulitility prices will continue going up for the next decade or two. As solar picks up, utility rates will actually start going down IMO. Just look at the situation in Germany. Their wholesale electricity prices are crashing due to solar. And utilities are losing money. They will go out of business one by one as solar, wind, biomass, etc. expand.

IMO the expansion of solar will cause lower utility rates and not higher rates...
My belief is that utilities will shift to a different charging structure, with lower marginal prices for power (reflecting only the wholesale cost of power, typically about 4-5 cents/kWh) and large fixed charges for grid interconnection, based on designed delivery capacity (amps of service). While many people are willing to put up panels, many fewer are willing to go off-grid completely. Note that this tariff structure makes net metering moot: there would be no difference in your net bill between net metering and having a separately metered usage and generation (assuming time-of-use rates).

This tariff structure is economically efficient, but it would undermine SCTY's business model sharply. By contrast, the dealer model undermines TSLA's approach, but dealers aren't economically efficient.
 
My belief is that utilities will shift to a different charging structure, with lower marginal prices for power (reflecting only the wholesale cost of power, typically about 4-5 cents/kWh) and large fixed charges for grid interconnection, based on designed delivery capacity (amps of service). While many people are willing to put up panels, many fewer are willing to go off-grid completely. Note that this tariff structure makes net metering moot: there would be no difference in your net bill between net metering and having a separately metered usage and generation (assuming time-of-use rates).

This tariff structure is economically efficient, but it would undermine SCTY's business model sharply. By contrast, the dealer model undermines TSLA's approach, but dealers aren't economically efficient.

I think this will take decades to happen on a large scale and by that time storage will be cost competitive with the grid. If not, somebody will come up with a solar+storage solution to only tap the grid when required resulting in only using on site power on site and when that runs out, tap the grid. This will be a lose lose situation for the grid because they will lose the excess power provided by consumers and have heavily reduced consumer usage of grid power.
 
I think this will take decades to happen on a large scale and by that time storage will be cost competitive with the grid. If not, somebody will come up with a solar+storage solution to only tap the grid when required resulting in only using on site power on site and when that runs out, tap the grid. This will be a lose lose situation for the grid because they will lose the excess power provided by consumers and have heavily reduced consumer usage of grid power.

This is still not a good solution to the consumer, because as Robert.Boston said, the utilities will start charging a high monthly fixed fee for transmission and distribution services. So even if you only tap the grid for a couple of emergency kWh's per month, then you may still be faced with $30 - $50 fixed monthly fees from the utility.

I think that going off the grid is the only solution. I for one can't wait to go off the grid, because the utilities can always find ways to make you pay more. If you are relying on the grid for backup (even if you don't use it hardly at all) then the grid is of great value and benefit to you, so a high $30+ fixed fee is reasonable and you are going to end up paying it.

Living off the grid is the best solution. Not many people would want to go that route today, but I have a feeling that there will be a lot of interested people in the future if battery storage ever becomes cheap.

You will have to put in a bigger than necessary solar system to live off the grid, so in the best case you can simply sell excess electricity to the grid with a one-way connection where you can't buy back. This way the utilities can't charge you anything for backup since you don't need it; while they will gladly buy your excess generation.

Once batteries are installed at homes for under $200/kWh, living off the grid becomes a reality for many. We have a long way to go, but Elon said that the cost should fall to $100 within 8 years (said 10 years, 2 years ago). So I would imagine that they can package and install these things for $200 eventually.

- - - Updated - - -

SolarCity currently does not serve Illinois. Commonwealth Edison (ComEd), which provides electricity to Chicago and the rest of Northern Illinois, will raise rates by an average of 21% on June 1st.

Here’s a link to a related Chicago Tribune article and video: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/breaking/chi-comed-price-increases-20140507,0,7376954.story

I provided a heads-up to the contact box in the SolarCity website. Here is the response I received:

“Thank you so much for the information. I will be sure to forward your email over to our expansion team to review and look into the great opportunity this presents.”


I don't know what the solar situation is in Illinois, but SCTY doesn't go where electricity rates are high. SCTY enters markets where there is net metering and HIGH rebates.

I live in Texas and utility rates are really cheap here. But SCTY still does business in my TDSP area, because the transmission services provider offers a generous rebate and SCTY gets to pocket that rebate. There are a few retail providers that offer net metering as well.

Both boxes are checked, so SCTY does business here. If you go across the street from where I live, then SCTY will not install a system for you because their TDSP does not offer any rebates.

SCTY goes only where it can make the most money for itself, and that is where the rebates are highest. Net metering is necessary, because customers will not sign up without net metering.

If SCTY is doing business in your area, then there is a 99%+ chance that you are better off buying a system outright from a local installer. Because if you SCTY does business in your area, then there is more than likely some kind of generous rebate, SREC, etc. that SCTY is pocketing at your loss.
 
This is still not a good solution to the consumer, because as Robert.Boston said, the utilities will start charging a high monthly fixed fee for transmission and distribution services. So even if you only tap the grid for a couple of emergency kWh's per month, then you may still be faced with $30 - $50 fixed monthly fees from the utility.

I think that going off the grid is the only solution. I for one can't wait to go off the grid, because the utilities can always find ways to make you pay more. If you are relying on the grid for backup (even if you don't use it hardly at all) then the grid is of great value and benefit to you, so a high $30+ fixed fee is reasonable and you are going to end up paying it.

Living off the grid is the best solution. Not many people would want to go that route today, but I have a feeling that there will be a lot of interested people in the future if battery storage ever becomes cheap.

You will have to put in a bigger than necessary solar system to live off the grid, so in the best case you can simply sell excess electricity to the grid with a one-way connection where you can't buy back. This way the utilities can't charge you anything for backup since you don't need it; while they will gladly buy your excess generation.

Once batteries are installed at homes for under $200/kWh, living off the grid becomes a reality for many. We have a long way to go, but Elon said that the cost should fall to $100 within 8 years (said 10 years, 2 years ago). So I would imagine that they can package and install these things for $200 eventually.

I'd like to go off grid too but that would require a bigger solar array than my roof can accommodate. And at maybe 100kWh of batteries or more. And that would be the situation for most people. Electricity needs to cost at least 35c/kWh (from rough calcs) with batteries costing $200/kWh installed for that to work and battery life needs to be as long as panel life.
 
I'd like to go off grid too but that would require a bigger solar array than my roof can accommodate. And at maybe 100kWh of batteries or more. And that would be the situation for most people. Electricity needs to cost at least 35c/kWh (from rough calcs) with batteries costing $200/kWh installed for that to work and battery life needs to be as long as panel life.

This is not true.

10 years from now solar systems should be installed for $2/W without any tax credits (since Germany does $2.20 today) and you can get a system in the US today for under $3/W from local installers, which equals $2/W after tax credit.

10kW solar system at $2/W = $20k
100kWh battery @$200/kWh = $20k

Total $40k

Your solar system will produce 15,000kWh/year =/- depending on where you live. Lets say that you use 12,000kWh/year.

System life = 25 years.

375,000kWh produced over 25 years, o/w 300,000kWh is used by the homeowner
@$40k initial investment
= $0.13/kWh

So using your assumptions (obviously batteries might not last a full 25-years, but solar systems may last longer than 25-years), electricity would need to cost more than $0.13/kWh (which it does already today) and not $0.35/kWh as you claim to make going off-grid economical. This does not factor in that the system owner could then sell 3,000 kWh per year back into the grid.

I really recommend doing analysis instead of just throwing random numbers around...
 
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This is not true.

10 years from now solar systems should be installed for $2/W without any tax credits (since Germany does $2.20 today) and you can get a system in the US for under $3/W from local installers, which equals $2/W after tax credit.

10kW solar system at $2/W = $20k
100kWh battery @$200/kWh = $20k

Total $40k

Your solar system will produce 15,000kWh/year =/- depending on where you live. Lets say that you use 12,000kWh/year.

System life = 25 years.

375,000kWh produced over 25 years, o/w 300,000kWh is used by the homeowner
@$40k initial investment
= $0.13/kWh

So using your assumptions (obviously batteries might not last a full 25-years, but solar systems may last longer than 25-years), electricity would need to cost more than $0.13/kWh (which it does already today) and not $0.35/kWh as you claim to make going off-grid economical. This does not factor in that the system owner could then sell 3,000 kWh per year back into the grid.

I really recommend doing analysis instead of just throwing random numbers around...

Many things assumed here.
1. I can't fit 10kW on my roof nor can most people. At 7kW my roof is fully occupied.
2. Inverter replacements every 10-15 years.
3. 25 year warranty doesn't mean nothing will fail, so labor for any failed parts. Lets' say battery lasts 10 years. Now you need to add in another battery or two. Even if you assume the two battery replacements in 25 years are half the cost of the original battery, that 13c is unrealistic.
4. Doesn't account for panel degradation.
 
Many things assumed here.
1. I can't fit 10kW on my roof nor can most people. At 7kW my roof is fully occupied.
2. Inverter replacements every 10-15 years.
3. 25 year warranty doesn't mean nothing will fail, so labor for any failed parts. Lets' say battery lasts 10 years. Now you need to add in another battery or two. Even if you assume the two battery replacements in 25 years are half the cost of the original battery, that 13c is unrealistic.
4. Doesn't account for panel degradation.

Now you are making up different assumptions. Previously you wrote:

Electricity needs to cost at least 35c/kWh (from rough calcs) with batteries costing $200/kWh installed for that to work and battery life needs to be as long as panel life.


This discussion is pointless, since there are too many variables and unknowns to think about, and you keep changing your assumptions.


1. Nobody cares about your roof size. And that is why I said "many" will be able to go off the grid. I did not say "all" or even "most". Also 10-20 years from now solar technology will be different and you might easily be able to fit 15kW with more efficient solar technology.
2. Inverters are cheap and will get cheaper. Inverter replacement would add only a fraction of a penny to the estimated cost per kWh.
3. My solar panels have a 25-year warranty, so no repair costs need to be budgeted. I expect my panels to last 40+ years, but did not factor this into calculations.
4. I did account for degradation. Geography plays a lot bigger role than panel degradation in this exercise.

Once again, these calculations are pointless because there is too many moving parts and we are still a decade or two before this becomes economically feasible.

I used your assumptions in my calculations to point out that your $0.35/kWh is not even close. Even when you apply your new assumptions, then you are still not getting anywhere close to $0.35/kWh and would be closer to half that number.

In any case, you just made up a random $0.35/kWh, and it is way off.
 
Now you are making up different assumptions. Previously you wrote:

Electricity needs to cost at least 35c/kWh (from rough calcs) with batteries costing $200/kWh installed for that to work and battery life needs to be as long as panel life.


This discussion is pointless, since there are too many variables and unknowns to think about, and you keep changing your assumptions.


1. Nobody cares about your roof size. And that is why I said "many" will be able to go off the grid. I did not say "all" or even "most". Also 10-20 years from now solar technology will be different and you might easily be able to fit 15kW with more efficient solar technology.
2. Inverters are cheap and will get cheaper. Inverter replacement would add only a fraction of a penny to the estimated cost per kWh.
3. My solar panels have a 25-year warranty, so no repair costs need to be budgeted. I expect my panels to last 40+ years, but did not factor this into calculations.
4. I did account for degradation. Geography plays a lot bigger role than panel degradation in this exercise.

Once again, these calculations are pointless because there is too many moving parts and we are still a decade or two before this becomes economically feasible.

I used your assumptions in my calculations to point out that your $0.35/kWh is not even close. Even when you apply your new assumptions, then you are still not getting anywhere close to $0.35/kWh and would be closer to half that number.

In any case, you just made up a random $0.35/kWh, and it is way off.

"My solar panels have a 25-year warranty" - They cover labor and materials? My panels have a 25 year output warranty and they will send a panel replacement (or additional panels to cover output at their discretion - which I can't fit anyway) but not cover labor. The everything covered warranty is only 10 years.

P.S. My bad for putting both battery cost at 200 and assuming life = life of panels at the same time :)


 
"My solar panels have a 25-year warranty" - They cover labor and materials? My panels have a 25 year output warranty and they will send a panel replacement (or additional panels to cover output at their discretion - which I can't fit anyway) but not cover labor. The everything covered warranty is only 10 years.



That is your loss, because mine are covered for "everthing" for 25 years. Another reason to get SPWR panels on your roof. BTW, I paid out of pocket (after rebates and tax credit) about $1.15/W.

So at $1.15/W all of a sudden going off the grid becomes a lot cheaper. And note that I used $2/W in my calculations above.
 
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I'm certainly hoping JASO spikes back up. The $9 calls I bought for $2 back in January, which comprise almost my entire JASO portfolio at the moment, are almost worthless after this latest dive. I certainly didn't expect that to happen when I got them in January. A month or so ago I'd planned on rolling them into stock (given sleepy's statements on stock vs options) on the next spike, but missed the late April spike due to being out of the country. Missing that brief spike may cause my JASO to be a total loss.

I really regret dropping any TSLA for solar (aggravated by buying options). There's basically no point in the past where TSLA would have done worse over a 6 month span than almost any of the solars, with CSIQ being a notable exception.
 
I'm certainly hoping JASO spikes back up. The $9 calls I bought for $2 back in January, which comprise almost my entire JASO portfolio at the moment, are almost worthless after this latest dive. I certainly didn't expect that to happen when I got them in January. A month or so ago I'd planned on rolling them into stock (given sleepy's statements on stock vs options) on the next spike, but missed the late April spike due to being out of the country. Missing that brief spike may cause my JASO to be a total loss.

I really regret dropping any TSLA for solar (aggravated by buying options). There's basically no point in the past where TSLA would have done worse over a 6 month span than almost any of the solars, with CSIQ being a notable exception.

Completely disagree with last paragraph. There were several solar stocks that did better than TSLA for all of 2013: off the top of my head CSIQ, JKS, SPWR to name a few.

I warned over and over against playing solar with options. Not just recently when times got bad. I warned especially when times were good. Most ignored those warnings, so don't feel too bad because you are not the only one losing on options.
 
Completely disagree with last paragraph. There were several solar stocks that did better than TSLA for all of 2013: off the top of my head CSIQ, JKS, SPWR to name a few.
True. I put all those stocks in Google Finance and scrolled windows back and forth through history. TSLA has beat them pretty handily the last 6 months, but for the calendar year of 2013 it didn't. Though if you include Jan 2013 to today, the only one that wins is CSIQ. If you take the comparison back to Jan 2012, TSLA beats even CSIQ.

The most notable windows where those noted solars crushed TSLA was the last 6 months of 2013, where TSLA dropped heavily off its high after Q3 ER.

I suppose the problem is the solars I had (SOL, JASO, and SPWR) had, as a group, fairly poor results. SPWR being the exception, but that's been more than smacked down by JASO's flatness and SOL's...well, we know how SOL's done :)
 
True. I put all those stocks in Google Finance and scrolled windows back and forth through history. TSLA has beat them pretty handily the last 6 months, but for the calendar year of 2013 it didn't. Though if you include Jan 2013 to today, the only one that wins is CSIQ. If you take the comparison back to Jan 2012, TSLA beats even CSIQ.

The most notable windows where those noted solars crushed TSLA was the last 6 months of 2013, where TSLA dropped heavily off its high after Q3 ER.

I suppose the problem is the solars I had (SOL, JASO, and SPWR) had, as a group, fairly poor results. SPWR being the exception, but that's been more than smacked down by JASO's flatness and SOL's...well, we know how SOL's done :)

But if you go back and use Nov 2012 as a start date, then a lot of solar stocks are outperforming TSLA to date.

Start dates are all arbitrary and that is market timing. They way I encourage people to invest is to come up with a future PT that you think the stock will hit. If the price today is good enough to yield a return that you will be happy with once your PT is met, then buy and hold. Sell only when your PT is met or investment thesis has changed. Your PT can be 1 year out or 5 years out. There is no set timeline, but you have to have the ability to hold the whole time.

I discourage using DC F'S and other metrics to try to prove how much a stock is worth today. You have to be forward thinking in this business.