Another - installing 14-50 (or 6-50)

[Cosmacelf]

I do about 60-100 miles a day (self employed).. some days I do 20 miles, somedays I can do 150.

Ok, so sounds worse case like you’d want to put in about 50 kWh from 11pm until 6am, or seven hours. That’s charging at about 7 kW, or 32Amps. So ideally, you’d use a 40A breaker and dial your EVSE in at 32A.

But that’s worse case. Most of the time, looks like charging at 20A would work. And if your battery ended up low, you could always start charging earlier in the evening.

 

[JonnyM3P]

After further thought, I have decided to go the Wall Charge way instead of the 14-50 and bought Gen 3 WC.

After many many readings and Utube videos. I am still confused on breaker, amps, wires, ect.

Im hoping I could get a solid answer where most (if not all) people here agree.
I don’t mind increasing time charging for more safety, and being under code.

To add Gen3 WC about 3 feet away from my outdoor panel; is a 50amp breaker safer than a 60amp? (Im assuming a 60amp is “pushing to max”).. Therefore increasing heat on wires?

Which wires would be recommended for a 50amp breaker? For outdoor use, in Miami heat, and thinking of using a flex plastic whip.

Also, I could lower amps on App to make it compatible to the 80% of the 50 amp breaker. Or is this done automatically by either car or the wall charger?

Please let me know if Im overthinking it, over reacting, or being a puss.. and it should be done any other way. Any info is GREATLY appreciated.

Kind regards

 

[Cosmacelf]

After further thought, I have decided to go the Wall Charge way instead of the 14-50 and bought Gen 3 WC.

After many many readings and Utube videos. I am still confused on breaker, amps, wires, ect.

Im hoping I could get a solid answer where most (if not all) people here agree.
I don’t mind increasing time charging for more safety, and being under code.

To add Gen3 WC about 3 feet away from my outdoor panel; is a 50amp breaker safer than a 60amp? (Im assuming a 60amp is “pushing to max”).. Therefore increasing heat on wires?

Which wires would be recommended for a 50amp breaker? For outdoor use, in Miami heat, and thinking of using a flex plastic whip.

Also, I could lower amps on App to make it compatible to the 80% of the 50 amp breaker. Or is this done automatically by either car or the wall charger?

Please let me know if Im overthinking it, over reacting, or being a puss.. and it should be done any other way. Any info is GREATLY appreciated.

Kind regards

Your issue is that you are pushing the panel capacity envelope with anything more than 20A. Now you can install a 50A or 60A breaker and only charge at midnight when most else (except your AC) is off. But if you charge during the day when a lot of other loads are on you would be risking blowing the main breaker or worse.

This will give you more info about wire sizing.

Advice for EV Charging in North America

Advice for EV Charging in North America

carcharging.us

 

[JonnyM3P]

Your issue is that you are pushing the panel capacity envelope with anything more than 20A. Now you can install a 50A or 60A breaker and only charge at midnight when most else (except your AC) is off. But if you charge during the day when a lot of other loads are on you would be risking blowing the main breaker or worse.

This will give you more info about wire sizing.

Advice for EV Charging in North America

Advice for EV Charging in North America

carcharging.us

Thank you for the info.. and yes, i plan to schedule charging around 11pm to 6am. If i charge during the day for a bit, nobody is at home during day as well.

 

[Sophias_dad]

Also, I could lower amps on App to make it compatible to the 80% of the 50 amp breaker. Or is this done automatically by either car or the wall charger?

You set the capacity of the circuit in the wall charger setup. You can decrease it further via the app or in the car if desired (occasionally). Don't rely on the app or car setting to ALWAYS work, because occasionally it won't.

 

[JonnyM3P]

You set the capacity of the circuit in the wall charger setup. You can decrease it further via the app or in the car if desired (occasionally). Don't rely on the app or car setting to ALWAYS work, because occasionally it won't.

So with that being said.. it’s better to get a 60amp breaker with the correct gauge wires to be safe?

 

[Rocky_H]

is a 50amp breaker safer than a 60amp?

it’s better to get a 60amp breaker with the correct gauge wires to be safe?

No. Look: you shouldn't be trying to pick between those two options of 50 or 60, and second, you shouldn't be asking us to recommend a circuit level. Multiple people told you on the previous page that you need to do a load calculation, and then THAT should be the thing that tells you how big of a circuit you even have a choice of. And I suspect that it won't even be as high as 50 or 60.

 

[MLXXXp]

you need to do a load calculation, and then THAT should be the thing that tells you how big of a circuit you even have a choice of.

@JonnyM3P,
This video is an example of doing a load calculation. The exact rules may be modified in your jurisdiction but it will be similar.

 

[MN-MS100D]

Service entrance conductors appear to be #1 AWG, good for 130 amps not 150. Should measure peak demand load to see if any more load can be put on this service.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Service entrance conductors appear to be #1 AWG, good for 130 amps not 150. Should measure peak demand load to see if any more load can be put on this service.

Those aren’t service entrance, they are feeders for the sub panel that has all the breakers on it. But good catch nonetheless! The markings on the wire do say 1 AWG. I think you can use the 90 degree column for this application? If so, that’s 145 amps, so slightly undersized for the 150 amps of breaker protection.

You know, we really don’t know the actual service amps. Looking at this setup, it is possible the meter/service is a 200A service and the contractor just cheapened out when doing this install. Lord knows that dual 75 A back fed breaker set up is funky as all get out, and was obviously done to save a few cents to not have to buy a proper 200A breaker and panel.

Personally, I would ask an electrician to give his thoughts on what service I really do have (pop open the left side panel and look or call the electric company and ask), and if I can get 200A, I would pay the $2K or so to upgrade that panel to a proper 200A panel, 200A breaker, 150A downstream breaker, and then I would feel good about installing a 60A breaker for a Wall Connector in that new 200A panel.

 

[DuncanM]

Another way to look at things is to ask yourself: "what is the minimum amperage that I need to charge overnight for my averaged, over a week, daily drive?"

You also have to look at the cost of adding excess capacity to the charging circuit vs cost recovery via EV at home charging,

You might find, for example, that a 120V 20amp circuit and charging at 16amp/120V might suffice.

 

[Eric33432]

I find threads like this interesting, and since it has been about two months since the last comment, I have no idea what the OP did, but for anyone who comes along I offer the following advice.

First, I have seen these 4 gang main breakers in many old ITE panels. ITE was purchased by Gould in the mid 70's, and Siemens purchased Gould in about 1983, but continued to sell products branded ITE for years, some even into the early 2000's. You should be able to use Siemens QP series breakers in your meter main panel.

BTW, ITE stands for Inverse Time Element. I found the following info on a Mike Holt forum posting:

"And that original Inverse Time Element is the basis for all circuit breaker Inverse Time-Current Trip Curve sensing elements since then, even if it was later accomplished in ways other than hydraulically (i.e. bimetal strips). Before ITE, a "circuit breaker" was a spring-loaded switch with a fuse element. The 1904 ITE innovation was in not having to replace the fuse element after every trip. More trivia, the company who made them was originally called Cutter Mfg in Philadelphia, but they changed the name to ITE in 1928 because of the wild success of the product."

I don't know if there are replacements available for that 150 amp breaker, but due to its age and the amount of corrosion I would consider replacing it. That is definitely a job for a licensed electrician.

That #1 AWG wire leaving the main panel going to the indoor panel is OK because the code allows the main service for a dwelling to be installed at 83% of the dwelling's calculated load. The load calculation gives you the main circuit breaker (OCPD) size, and the minimum conductor ampacity is calculated by multiplying that by 83%. #1 wire is correct.

The size of the service wires needs to be based on the 75˚C column in the NEC wire charts. The 90˚C column is only used for derating as the terminals on the breakers and lugs on the panels used in residential equipment are usually rated for 75˚C. Derating is used when conductors are exposed to hot areas (such as an attic) or more than three current carrying conductors are run together in a conduit or raceway.

You can talk about this all you want, but really the only way to know if the 150 amp service is OK is to do an easy load calculation using Mike Holt's Electrical Tool box.

I have done one for the OP assuming a 2500 square foot house, and the 240 volt loads that the OP mentioned, plus 48 amps for an EV circuit. I have used the normal 120 volt devices most houses have (one laundry (washing machine) circuit, two kitchen small appliance circuits, and dishwasher, disposall, microwave circuits) and the default or common values for the 240 volt devices the OP listed; you can get a more exact number if you put in the nameplate values for these devices, but I bet it would be pretty close to the default.

Using this information, it turn out his 150 amp service will support a 60 amp circuit to a Tesla Wall Connector which will provide the maximum 48 amp charging that most Tesla vehicles support. More on that below.

Here it is:

USER INPUTS​

A. General Lighting/Receptacles:

Living Area in Sq. Ft.:
2500sq. ft.

Small Appliance Circuits: 2 Circuits

Laundry Circuit(s): 1 Circuit(s)

B. Fixed Appliances and Equipment:

Dishwasher(s), 120V:1Unit(s),15 Amperes

Disposal(s), 120V:1Unit(s),15 Amperes

Electric Vehicle Charger(s), 240V:1Unit(s),48 Amperes

Microwave(s), 120V:1Unit(s),1800 VA

Water Heater(s), 240V:1Unit(s),4500 VA

Electric Dryer(s), 240V:1Unit(s),5000 VA

Range (Cooktop/Oven)(s), 240V:1Unit(s),14000 VA

C. Cooling/Heating Load(s):

Cooling Load: AC/Condenser
18A and Fan 2A, 240V

Heating Load: Heat
9600 VA and Fan 2A, 240V

COPPER RESULTS​

1. Service Disconnect Rating: 150A
2. Service Conductor Size:
1 AWG, rated 130A at 75°C
3. Service Neutral Conductor Size: 6 AWG, rated 65A at 75°C
4. Supply-Side Bonding Jumper: 6 AWG
5. Raceway Size: 1½ Inch

ALUMINUM RESULTS​

1. Service Disconnect Rating: 150A
2. Service Conductor Size: 2/0 AWGAL, rated 135A at 75°C
3. Service Neutral Conductor Size: 4 AWGAL, rated 65A at 75°C
4. Supply-Side Bonding Jumper: 4 AWGAL
5. Raceway Size: 2 Inch

Service Calculation[220.82(B)]

A. General Lighting/Receptacles:

Living Area: 2500 x 3 VA = 7500VA

Small Appliance Circuits: 1,500 VA x 2 = 3000VA

Laundry Circuit(s): 1,500 VA x 1 = 1500

B. Fixed Appliances and Equipment

Dishwasher(s), 120V:1Unit(s) x 15 Amperes x 120V =1800VA

Disposal(s), 120V:1Unit(s) x 15 Amperes x 120V =1800VA

Electric Vehicle Charger(s), 240V:1Unit(s) x 48 Amperes x 240V =11520VA

Microwave(s), 120V:1Unit(s) x 1800 VA = 1800 VA

Water Heater(s), 240V:1Unit(s) x 4500 VA = 4500 VA

Electric Druer, 340V:1Unit(s), 5000VA

Range (Cooktop/Oven)(s), 240V:1Unit(s), 14000VA

Subtotal: 52420VA
First 10,000 VA at 100%: 10000

Remainder 42420 VA at 40% = 16968 VA

Subtotal Demand Load: 26968 VA

C. Cooling/Heating Load(s) [220.82(C)]:

Cooling Load at 100%: 240V x (18A + 2 A) = 4800 VA

[Omit Cooling Per 220.60]

Heating Load at 65%: [9600VA +(240V x 2 A)] x 65% = 6552 VA

Cooling/Heating Demand Load: 6552 VA

Total Service Demand Load:

Service Demand VA Load (A, B, and C):33520 VA

Service Load in Amperes: 140A ( 33520 VA/240V)

NOTES:​

1. Service Disconnect Rating [240.4 and 240.6(A)]

Service disconnect sized must have an ampacity of at least 140A

Service Disconnect Rating: 150A

2. Service Conductor Size [310.15(B)(7) and Table 310.15(B)(16)]

Service conductor sized to 83% of 150A service disconnect rating.

150x 83% = 124.5A

3. Service Neutral Conductor Size [220.61 and Table 310.15(B)(16)]

A. General Lighting, Small Appliance, and Laundry VA Load: [220.42]

General Lighting: 2500 sq. ft. x 3 VA = 7500 VA

Small Appliance Circuits: 1,500 VA x 2 = 3000 VA

Laundry Circuit(s): 1,500 VA x 1 = 1500 VA

First 3,000 VA at 100% = 3000 VA

Remainder, 9000 VA at 35% = 3150 VA

General Lighting, Small Appliance, and Laundry Demand Load: 6150

B. Appliance(s) VA Load:​

Dishwasher(s), 120V:1Unit(s) x 15 Amperes

Total: 5400 VA x 75% = 4050 VA, 220.53

Disposal(s), 120V:1Unit(s) x 15 Amperes

Total: 5400 VA x 75% = 4050 VA, 220.53

Microwave(s), 120V:1Unit(s) x 1800 VA

Total: 5400 VA x 75% = 4050 VA, 220.53

C. Dryer(s) VA Load [220.60]​

Neutral Demand Load [220.61(B)]​

5000VA x 70% = 3500 VA, 220.54

D. Cooking Equipment VA Load [220.61] and Table 220.55​

Neutral Demand Load [220.61(B)]​

0 VA x 70% = 0 VA, 220.55

Neutral VA Demand Load(A, B, C, and D)​

6150 VA + 4050 VA + 3500 VA + 0 VA = 13700 VA

Neutral Load in Amperes:

57A ( 13700 VA/240V)

4. Supply-side Bonding Jumper Size [250.102(C)]​

Supply-side bonding jumper sized to the service conductor size.

5. Raceway Size [Chapter 9, Table 1]​

Based on a raceway at 40% fill, with an equipment grounding conductor.
-- -- -- -- -- -- --

BTW, without the EV circuit, the above load calculation comes up with needing a 125 amp service.

-- -- -- -- -- -- --

If you download Mike Holt's Electrical Tool Box you can run the load calculation yourself, using the exact nameplate ratings for all your devices.

Regarding charging, my experience is that it depends on your driving habits. Usually there is no huge need to max out the charging to the capacity of the car. All current Tesla vehicles max out at 48 amps except the M3 rear wheel drive which maxes out at 32 amps.

If you can charge from late afternoon to the next morning, a 30 amp circuit would probably be fine. If you have time of day billing, you might want to charge only during certain limited times and need to charge faster.

But if you sometimes need to charge for a trip that might suddenly come up, you probably want to be able to charge at the maximum the car is capable of.

The Tesla Wall Connector is configured for the size of the breaker, and automatically adjusts the maximum charging to 80% of that configuration. Using the TWC to set this is the best way to limit charging; do not dial it down in the car and rely on that setting to limit charging because the car may forget the setting and you might not notice that it has forgot.

Also, the Tesla Mobile Connector is fine to use in a garage, but it is not good to use the MC outdoors as it should not be allowed to get wet. And depending on your area, someone might steal it.

Here are the wire sizes for various 240 volt circuits (assuming THHN/THWN-2 wire is used in the conduit or MC cable):

Breaker Amps/Charge Amps/Romex/Conduit or MC

15/12/14/14
20/16/12/12
30/24/10/10
40/32/8/8
50/40/6/8
60/48/4/6

Last, usually local code requires a GFCI breaker for an outlet, a regular breaker can be used with the Tesla Wall Connector.

If all the above is new to you, or confusing, you should hire an electrician, but some electricians are not aware of the nuances of EVSE circuits, even ones on Tesla's approved list so it is good for you to know these nuances to be sure your electrician does the job properly. I have seen or heard about more than one Tesla approved electrician installing a 60 amp (48 amp charging) TWC with #6 Romex.

Hope all the above is helpful for anyone that comes along and would love to know what the OP ended up doing.

 

[Eric33432]

Hello,
I would like to install a 240v 14-50 outlet next to my main service panel. But looking into it, is there a Neutral for this? I see the 2 hots and a ground only (or am I missing something).
If thats the case, would a 6-50 be a better option?

If so, can someone recommend a 50amp breaker? I heard I would need a gfci breaker as I will be using the mobile charger and not a wall charger. As far as receptacle, a Hubbell/Bryant would be in use. Also, what gauge wires to use?

Thanks in advance.View attachment 949714View attachment 949716View attachment 949717

This looks like it might be what you need to replace your main breaker:

https://www.amazon.com/Siemens-MBK150-Replacement-Main-Breaker/dp/B00PR66YMU/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2Y065A16K5JRX&keywords=siemens%2B150%2Bamp%2Bmain%2Bbreaker%2Bpanel&qid=1693160516&sprefix=siemens%2B150%2Bamp%2Bmain%2Bbreaker%2Bpanel%2Caps%2C156&sr=8-3&th=1