Another Tesla Delivery Failure...

[linux-works]

If anyone competes with Tesla effectively it will be a tech company out of Silicon Valley, not a legacy auto manufacturer.

yes and no

yes, for the silicon valley part (ob disc, I live and work there). no, for the legacy auto makers; meaning that they are already here in the bay area its still a small world, the bay area and 'new auto', but its ramping up very quickly and there are quite a few new names locally that are moving in on tesla. most won't make it, but they'll try. and all that will help the EV effort.

the german auto makers, the US ones, they all have offices and developers here in the bay area. the cars driving around with company logos and 'spinning stuff' on their cars (lol) is so frequent here. you don't even take notice of them anymore, that's how common the research and product companies are, in terms of 'new auto'. I see it as silicon valley finally re-finding itself (I never considered facebook and twitter to be real silicon valley companies; but that's for another thread)

 

[linux-works]

I can only hope traditional car maker makes great EV. That will put pressure on Tesla in the future with how they handle customers.

they are way behind, but they all see it and they are making the change. they are at least 5 years behind tesla, but all that can change. (just my WAG, of course).

 

[raptor5244]

I feel they should explain their process more clearly somewhere. Will help everyone and the experience.

I can only hope traditional car maker makes great EV. That will put pressure on Tesla in the future with how they handle customers.

The industry will need the other manufacturers to catch up and start building desirable EVs because Tesla will probably not be able to keep up with the demand. You know how customer services suffers when a company can’t handle the demand. It already takes 2.5 weeks to get a service appointment in my area.

 

[raptor5244]

they are way behind, but they all see it and they are making the change. they are at least 5 years behind tesla, but all that can change. (just my WAG, of course).

I agree but I think the market for Tesla is kind of like market the iPhone. Tesla will draw the loyal fans and we will pay thousands more for the car for its fantastic combo of hardware and software, like Apple. However, like the smartphone market there is Android, which garners like 80% market share vs. 20% for Apple.

I think the traditional automakers are a ways behind Tesla but we have to remember these are very matures car companies that have tons of experience building cars. They just need to adapt to the changing times. Direct sales channels, improved software interfaces, etc. the companies that can make this transition will be a force to be reckon with. I think Toyota is dragging their feet and hanging onto hybrid too long but I think the market will be impressed by what Ford and GM come up with. The will be able to deliver mainstream EV pickups, not a niche CyberTruck and the Camaro and Mustang lineup will include EV trims that goes 0-60 in less than 3 seconds. 0-60mph times will not be the headline anymore. The traditional automakers have a leg up when it comes to chassis design, suspension systems and a lot of the mechanicals. Tesla has a clear advantage as it relates to software user interface and OTA updates.

It will be fun to watch.

 

[linux-works]

oddly, I think a lot of the software will end up converging, but independently. (this thing called AUTOSAR is kind of taking over, for some good and some not, but mostly its a good thing).

the hardware is where I think we'll see the bigger differences. who chooses to put X money on this detail versus that. are they trying to sell to those that like 'space ships' or to the crowd that likes normal looking cars (lol).

the mapping, the self-driving (my bet is that most will come from mobileye, for consumer cars, but its just a WAG), the infotainment; auto makers will buy most of that software as 'body in white' so to speak, then just customize it a bit and put it into shipping product.

I do think there will still be a clear line between the 'boring' and the 'exciting'

 

[Knightshade]

I agree but I think the market for Tesla is kind of like market the iPhone. Tesla will draw the loyal fans and we will pay thousands more for the car for its fantastic combo of hardware and software, like Apple. However, like the smartphone market there is Android, which garners like 80% market share vs. 20% for Apple.

The other car makers are far far too battery starved to do anything like that, and it'll be many years before that's not true.

I a
I think the traditional automakers are a ways behind Tesla but we have to remember these are very matures car companies that have tons of experience building cars.

And yet they keep doing a terrible job of it with EVs.

it's almost like they're a different thing and the skills don't translate well.


VW's been building cars a while right?

https://ww.electrek.co/2019/12/19/v...-as-company-begins-year-of-ev-introductions/#

They're gonna be, manually, reworking 10,000-20,000 cars because they haven't figured out how to deliver OTA updates yet- despite it being an intended feature of the car.

Mercedes, they've been doing cars a while right? They've pushed back US sales of their EQC crossover to 2021 now...and are in Production Hell for the few they've managed to build at all for Europe...having delivered on 55 total cars in November for example despite showing the first production version car a year earlier.

Mercedes EQC, 1st Fully Electric Mercedes, Is Still In Production Hell — CleanTechnica Exclusive | CleanTechnica

As the article notes almost all the legacy makers who are even trying to do EV stuff have run into serious production delays and issues...

Jaguar's a little newer I guess? only 1920s... they can hardly give away their EV the i-pace... and it's been recalled for braking issues...

Audis doing marginally better with the etron sales-wise, but not by that much- and they ALSO had a recall for issues that could cause battery fires.

Even the bolt and leaf had ~6-month production delays at times.


Ford! Ford knows cars right! I mean they invented mass production or something! Oh, they're only gonna have 50,000 EVs produced the first year- and most of those going to Europe....because they lack the batteries to make any more.

Tesla outsells that with the Model 3 in less than 2 months.

 

[jonquiljo]

The other car makers are far far too battery starved to do anything like that, and it'll be many years before that's not true.




And yet they keep doing a terrible job of it with EVs.

it's almost like they're a different thing and the skills don't translate well.


VW's been building cars a while right?

https://ww.electrek.co/2019/12/19/v...-as-company-begins-year-of-ev-introductions/#

They're gonna be, manually, reworking 10,000-20,000 cars because they haven't figured out how to deliver OTA updates yet- despite it being an intended feature of the car.

Mercedes, they've been doing cars a while right? They've pushed back US sales of their EQC crossover to 2021 now...and are in Production Hell for the few they've managed to build at all for Europe...having delivered on 55 total cars in November for example despite showing the first production version car a year earlier.

Mercedes EQC, 1st Fully Electric Mercedes, Is Still In Production Hell — CleanTechnica Exclusive | CleanTechnica

As the article notes almost all the legacy makers who are even trying to do EV stuff have run into serious production delays and issues...

Jaguar's a little newer I guess? only 1920s... they can hardly give away their EV the i-pace... and it's been recalled for braking issues...

Audis doing marginally better with the etron sales-wise, but not by that much- and they ALSO had a recall for issues that could cause battery fires.

Even the bolt and leaf had ~6-month production delays at times.


Ford! Ford knows cars right! I mean they invented mass production or something! Oh, they're only gonna have 50,000 EVs produced the first year- and most of those going to Europe....because they lack the batteries to make any more.

Tesla outsells that with the Model 3 in less than 2 months.

The bottom line is simple: in the next 2-3 years, Tesla will kick butt while the rest of the auto industry struggles. History has shown this and is showing it now.

Beyond the 2-3 year point (2022-2023), it is anyone's guess. Lots can happen in 2-3 years. Tesla will be ahead, but where will it go? There's also room for more than one car company at the top.

Worth noting is that the oil industry is not going to give up without a fight. There is a massive infrastructure in place for fossil fuels that has to be slowly wound down - all while the people making billions and billions are fighting back.

The world has to change. Period.

 

[raptor5244]

The other car makers are far far too battery starved to do anything like that, and it'll be many years before that's not true.




And yet they keep doing a terrible job of it with EVs.

it's almost like they're a different thing and the skills don't translate well.


VW's been building cars a while right?

https://ww.electrek.co/2019/12/19/v...-as-company-begins-year-of-ev-introductions/#

They're gonna be, manually, reworking 10,000-20,000 cars because they haven't figured out how to deliver OTA updates yet- despite it being an intended feature of the car.

Mercedes, they've been doing cars a while right? They've pushed back US sales of their EQC crossover to 2021 now...and are in Production Hell for the few they've managed to build at all for Europe...having delivered on 55 total cars in November for example despite showing the first production version car a year earlier.

Mercedes EQC, 1st Fully Electric Mercedes, Is Still In Production Hell — CleanTechnica Exclusive | CleanTechnica

As the article notes almost all the legacy makers who are even trying to do EV stuff have run into serious production delays and issues...

Jaguar's a little newer I guess? only 1920s... they can hardly give away their EV the i-pace... and it's been recalled for braking issues...

Audis doing marginally better with the etron sales-wise, but not by that much- and they ALSO had a recall for issues that could cause battery fires.

Even the bolt and leaf had ~6-month production delays at times.


Ford! Ford knows cars right! I mean they invented mass production or something! Oh, they're only gonna have 50,000 EVs produced the first year- and most of those going to Europe....because they lack the batteries to make any more.

Tesla outsells that with the Model 3 in less than 2 months.

I don’t disagree, they all seem clueless and have been stuck their old ways for so long but some of them will figure out how to make the transition. I am mostly shocked by Toyota and how they are still so committed to hybrid and fuel cell technology. If they would just stick a big battery in a Camry, Corolla, and RAV4 they would sell as many as they can produce. It doesn’t even need to have a fancy user interface and spartan interior.

I am concerned about Tesla’s ability to scale from a service and support perspective. The industry actually needs these other automakers to survive. Furthermore, while I love Tesla and own two of them we need more choices. I don’t want to feel like I am buying an IPhone every time I buy a car. I want have more selection than 5 paint colors, 2 interior choices and 2 wheel choices. With no real competition this is fine for now but eventually the market will get bored with it.

 

[OCR1]

I don’t have a lot of confidence in the legacy automakers making it in the high tech EV world. BlackBerry couldn’t make the leap to smart phones. Sears couldn’t make the leap to internet commerce.

Someone will successfully compete against Tesla. But it won’t be any of the dinosaur companies.

 

[raptor5244]

I don’t have a lot of confidence in the legacy automakers making it in the high tech EV world. BlackBerry couldn’t make the leap to smart phones. Sears couldn’t make the leap to internet commerce.

Someone will successfully compete against Tesla. But it won’t be any of the dinosaur companies.

Good point. I saw Sony released a concept EV and it looks pretty darn good, especially the interior.

 

[Knightshade]

I don’t disagree, they all seem clueless and have been stuck their old ways for so long but some of them will figure out how to make the transition. I am mostly shocked by Toyota and how they are still so committed to hybrid and fuel cell technology. If they would just stick a big battery in a Camry, Corolla, and RAV4 they would sell as many as they can produce. It doesn’t even need to have a fancy user interface and spartan interior.

I am concerned about Tesla’s ability to scale from a service and support perspective. The industry actually needs these other automakers to survive. Furthermore, while I love Tesla and own two of them we need more choices. I don’t want to feel like I am buying an IPhone every time I buy a car. I want have more selection than 5 paint colors, 2 interior choices and 2 wheel choices. With no real competition this is fine for now but eventually the market will get bored with it.

FWIW if Lexus made a BEV IS with comparable-to-Tesla performance and driver aids, I'd be driving one today instead of a Model 3.

My previous IS350 was absolutely outstanding and dead reliable for 11 years, and service was utterly fantastic too.


But instead Lexus kept making newer versions of the car WORSE (higher price, heavier, slower, while continuing to use the same engine they'd been using for ~15 years without major improvements).


One of the reasons I kept hanging on to that Lexus was all the "traditional" car companies kept making cars that weren't worth replacing it with- my options were basically paying 50-60k for what was essentially the same car with newer infotainment which would've been pointless.

The Model 3 was the first (and still only) exception.

More choices would be great- but nobody seems in any hurry to provide em.

 

[raptor5244]

FWIW if Lexus made a BEV IS with comparable-to-Tesla performance and driver aids, I'd be driving one today instead of a Model 3.

My previous IS350 was absolutely outstanding and dead reliable for 11 years, and service was utterly fantastic too.


But instead Lexus kept making newer versions of the car WORSE (higher price, heavier, slower, while continuing to use the same engine they'd been using for ~15 years without major improvements).


One of the reasons I kept hanging on to that Lexus was all the "traditional" car companies kept making cars that weren't worth replacing it with- my options were basically paying 50-60k for what was essentially the same car with newer infotainment which would've been pointless.

The Model 3 was the first (and still only) exception.

More choices would be great- but nobody seems in any hurry to provide em.

I had an IS350 as well. Fantastic car but like you said, Lexus just seems too complacent (like many automakers) and lack of innovation will hurt them. I hope this is a wake up call for them and we will see which companies will adapt or wind up being the next Blockbuster Video.

 

[7dayslate]

The other car makers are far far too battery starved to do anything like that, and it'll be many years before that's not true.




And yet they keep doing a terrible job of it with EVs.

it's almost like they're a different thing and the skills don't translate well.


VW's been building cars a while right?

https://ww.electrek.co/2019/12/19/v...-as-company-begins-year-of-ev-introductions/#

They're gonna be, manually, reworking 10,000-20,000 cars because they haven't figured out how to deliver OTA updates yet- despite it being an intended feature of the car.

Mercedes, they've been doing cars a while right? They've pushed back US sales of their EQC crossover to 2021 now...and are in Production Hell for the few they've managed to build at all for Europe...having delivered on 55 total cars in November for example despite showing the first production version car a year earlier.

Mercedes EQC, 1st Fully Electric Mercedes, Is Still In Production Hell — CleanTechnica Exclusive | CleanTechnica

As the article notes almost all the legacy makers who are even trying to do EV stuff have run into serious production delays and issues...

Jaguar's a little newer I guess? only 1920s... they can hardly give away their EV the i-pace... and it's been recalled for braking issues...

Audis doing marginally better with the etron sales-wise, but not by that much- and they ALSO had a recall for issues that could cause battery fires.

Even the bolt and leaf had ~6-month production delays at times.


Ford! Ford knows cars right! I mean they invented mass production or something! Oh, they're only gonna have 50,000 EVs produced the first year- and most of those going to Europe....because they lack the batteries to make any more.

Tesla outsells that with the Model 3 in less than 2 months.

Sorry, didn't see anything in this post about treating customers/shareholders like crap in the delivery process.

I now have my car. With a futile attempt to compensate for their not being able to deliver a car as PROMOTED.

Tesla still has a lot to prove, to me!

 

[Knightshade]

Sorry, didn't see anything in this post about treating customers/shareholders like crap in the delivery process.

In part because most legacy companies been unable to deliver a significant # of EVs in the first place

Over at Tesla meanwhile they continue to crush everyone not just on delivered EVs, but also customer satisfaction

Tesla owners are more satisfied than any other auto brand's, according to Consumer Reports

Tesla customers are more satisfied than those of any other auto brand for the third consecutive year, according to Consumer Reports, which placed Tesla first on its 2019 list of auto brands ranked by owner satisfaction.

 

[Entropy512]

Um, Tesla is not ahead on customer satisfaction.

Attempting to purchase a Model 3 was the second worst customer service experience I've ever had in my life.

So far (we'll see how the test drive itself actually goes), my local Chevy dealer is giving me top-notch customer service with regards to buying a Bolt - and looking at the various Bolt owner forums, customer satisfaction is WAY ahead of Tesla.

CR's report lumps all of any given manufacturer's vehicles together, sadly Chevy has some duds. But if you put EVs against EVs, everything I can see indicates that Tesla is doing extremely poorly.

 

[Knightshade]

Um, Tesla is not ahead on customer satisfaction.

Uh, yes, they are.

I even posted a link with actual real world data proving that fact.

They're not at "100%" but nobody is.

Meaning "One internet rando being unhappy" doesn't change the overall facts that they ranked higher than every other car maker per Consumer Reports.

 

[OCR1]

Um, Tesla is not ahead on customer satisfaction.

Attempting to purchase a Model 3 was the second worst customer service experience I've ever had in my life.

So far (we'll see how the test drive itself actually goes), my local Chevy dealer is giving me top-notch customer service with regards to buying a Bolt - and looking at the various Bolt owner forums, customer satisfaction is WAY ahead of Tesla.

CR's report lumps all of any given manufacturer's vehicles together, sadly Chevy has some duds. But if you put EVs against EVs, everything I can see indicates that Tesla is doing extremely poorly.

You are focused on the purchase and delivery experience, which admittedly is flawed for many people. But that is not what Consumer Reports is measuring. They are measuring a buyer’s satisfaction with the ownership experience of the car. Many people on this forum have posted their horror stories about buying and taking delivery of the car. But virtually everyone on the forum who owns one says it is the best car they have ever owned.