Any Model 3 Nürburgring Nordschleife numbers?

[MP3Mike]

How do you know that the Model 3 doesn't have as stiff a frame as the M3 or M4, or various Porsches? Unless they've all been tested by some independent group, I don't think you can really know. Also, why do you think the M3 or M4, or Porsches in general have a superior suspension? I do agree that Teslas don't make the best track machines, but not because of chassis stiffness or suspension relative to their competition.

Yeah, did Munro say that the chassis was way over-built and too stiff?

Edit: Yep: Another Tesla Model 3 Teardown Highlights Strengths & Opportunities For Tesla | CleanTechnica

Munro said. “They don’t do a good job at part count. The weights are too high. The body is much too stiff.”

 

[Daniel in SD]

Wow! That is a fast average lap speed for that track!

That was the top speed
The point is that it's a ridiculously fast track. The Model 3 can probably only beat the competition at relatively slow tracks.
Unfortunately we all know that Nurburgring times are really the only metric by which a performance car can be judged

 

[ggnykk]

what's the average speed for a decked out m3 on that track?

Check out all the stats here in this official BMW video. It is the highest spec 2-door BMW M4 GTS version. Not exactly the BMW M3 4-door version that you are looking for, but close enough.

Highest speed:
262 km/h (163 mph) at the long straight near the beginning of the track.
279 km/h (173 mph) at the long straight near the end of the track (also highest speed of the entire track)

 

[ggnykk]

That was the top speed
The point is that it's a ridiculously fast track. The Model 3 can probably only beat the competition at relatively slow tracks.
Unfortunately we all know that Nurburgring times are really the only metric by which a performance car can be judged

yea, unfortunately, even the 1 million dollar hyrid hyper cars such as Porsche 918 spyder and Mclaren P1 suffer in Nurburgring. The battery and the hyrid powertrain just overheat like crazy or simply run out of battery to do any boost at the end of Nurburgring, especially the super long high speed straight at the end of the track.

I personally don't expect super fast time of the Performance Model 3 in the ring, probably 7 minute 50 second at best.

 

[ggnykk]

Wow! That is a fast average lap speed for that track!

173 mph is the absolutely TOP speed for BMW M4 GTS anywhere on the ring. Definitely NOT the average speed.

 

[ggnykk]

In case you want a cross reference, a really heavy BMW M5 do 7 min 38 second in the ring. And max out at 289 km/h (or 179.6 mph)

 

[wenkan]

yea, unfortunately, even the 1 million dollar hyrid hyper cars such as Porsche 918 spyder and Mclaren P1 suffer in Nurburgring. The battery and the hyrid powertrain just overheat like crazy or simply run out of battery to do any boost at the end of Nurburgring, especially the super long high speed straight at the end of the track.

I personally don't expect super fast time of the Performance Model 3 in the ring, probably 7 minute 45 second at best.

7:50 is good enough to be in the top 100 mass production car record.

 

[ggnykk]

Most likely this kind of time is what Tesla model 3 can do. Similar weight and horsepower and AWD.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Most likely this kind of time is what Tesla model 3 can do. Similar weight and horsepower and AWD.

I'm betting a bit slower. The horsepower loss at high speed is going to be a big problem.

 

[ggnykk]

I'm betting a bit slower. The horsepower loss at high speed is going to be a big problem.

I thought there are reports that Model 3 with track mode can lap a track (that is typrically around 1 min to 1 min 20 seconds long) for at least like 5 times before any power limitation or overheat.

So i am guessing that the Model 3 can do at least 70% of the ring in Germany without any overheating or power limitation issue. Yes, the remaining 30% of the track would suffer. So probably around 8 min 10 second is a reasonable guess for Model 3 in the ring.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I thought there are reports that Model 3 with track mode can lap a track (that is typrically around 1 min to 1 min 20 seconds long) for at least like 5 times before any power limitation or overheat.

So i am guessing that the Model 3 can do at least 70% of the ring in Germany without any overheating or power limitation issue. Yes, the remaining 30% of the track would suffer. So probably around 8 min 10 second is a reasonable guess for Model 3 in the ring.

I'm not talking about the heat issue, I'm referring to the power curve of the electric motors. They lose power at high RPM, something that isn't a problem for cars with multispeed transmissions. You can see in the dyno graph that the P3D is down 25% from its horsepower peak at 12,000rpm.

 

[boriszima]

Can’t wait to see times soon. Cars are flowing to Europe. Tesla with track mode hopefully can’t stand its own. Hopefully not too far away from M3/M4 times

 

[ggnykk]

I'm not talking about the heat issue, I'm referring to the power curve of the electric motors. They lose power at high RPM, something that isn't a problem for cars with multispeed transmissions. You can see in the dyno graph that the P3D is down 25% from its horsepower peak at 12,000rpm.
View attachment 393968

Nice graph! which color is for which model 3 model?

 

[Daniel in SD]

Nice graph! which color is for which model 3 model?

Blue is Performance, Red is AWD, I think green is chill mode.

 

[SammichLover]

Maybe if they create a special Nurburgring edition with a taller gear ratio.

If the point of the knuckle on the front suspension wasn't so tight in over the tire you could get a modestly taller gear ratio with just bigger wheels. Unfortunately the limit right now is about 2% because of that, and I can't see how you'd be able to get any net advantage out of having taller rear wheels. Besides whatever havoc it causes with the aerodynamics the control system probably would go nuts if the front and rear DU were out sync in a meaningful way like that.

 

[afadeev]

The day a magazine or online outlet run a tesla Model 3 performance with track mode against a BMW M3 with the same professional driver at the Nurburgring , and the tesla wins with a quicker hot lap time, will be a red letter day for EVs because ICE will no longer have a place to hide.

That's a highly unlikely, more like an impossible, scenario.
If TM3P can't clock a "quicker-than" lap time at the tiny Lime Rock Park (more like a long autoX course), then it has ZERO chance of posting competitive time on the uber-long Nordschleife.

As an owner of BMW M3 and TM3P (love both cars), I can tell you that the suspension and handling of BMW M3 is significantly more advanced that Tesla's. Power is comparable, and the immediate acceleration is greater with TM3P due to the 4WD setup. But the extra weight (+450 lbs), smaller tires (235mm is comparable to basic 3-series, not track-ready M3), lack of top end power, and handling limitations will doom Model 3P times on any track.

I personally don't expect super fast time of the Performance Model 3 in the ring, probably 7 minute 50 second at best.

I would be presently surprised if TM3P clock in under 8 minutes.
Maybe 8:30s or thereabouts, depends on how much the battery overheats, and how soon.

a

 

[GregD60]

That's a highly unlikely, more like an impossible, scenario.
If TM3P can't clock a "quicker-than" lap time at the tiny Lime Rock Park (more like a long autoX course), then it has ZERO chance of posting competitive time on the uber-long Nordschleife.

As an owner of BMW M3 and TM3P (love both cars), I can tell you that the suspension and handling of BMW M3 is significantly more advanced that Tesla's. Power is comparable, and the immediate acceleration is greater with TM3P due to the 4WD setup. But the extra weight (+450 lbs), smaller tires (235mm is comparable to basic 3-series, not track-ready M3), lack of top end power, and handling limitations will doom Model 3P times on any track.



I would be presently surprised if TM3P clock in under 8 minutes.
Maybe 8:30s or thereabouts, depends on how much the battery overheats, and how soon.

a

I agree with most of what you say above, except for a couple of items. One is that I would call the BMW's suspension more race-ready than the Tesla's, not more advanced. If anything, I'd say that the Tesla's suspension is more advanced than the BMW's with multi-links front and rear, while the BMW has struts on the front. There are some good reasons why dedicated race cars from F1 to Indy to LeMans use multi-link rather than strut type suspensions.

From a handling perspective, the big difference between the Tesla and the BMW is the ratio of tire size to weight and tuning the suspension to match the tires. To roughly match the BMW, the Tesla would have to run something like 295/30-20 all the way around. This would require body mods in addition to spring, shock, and swaybar mods. If all of that were done, my money would be on the Tesla to outhandle the BMW. That said, it would seriously impact the range on the Tesla, and it's really kind of getting away from the whole idea of the Model 3, and is part of the reason that a BMW M3 makes better sense as a track toy today than a Tesla Model 3.

Also, compared to a regular BMW M3, not a CS or GTS, I don't think that the Model 3P really lacks top end power. It's max speed is only one MPH slower, 162 vs. 163, and top speed is all about power and aerodynamics. Due to that combination, a regular M3 really doesn't have much, if any, of a top end power advantage over a Model 3.

 

[MP3Mike]

But the extra weight (+450 lbs), smaller tires (235mm is comparable to basic 3-series, not track-ready M3), lack of top end power, and handling limitations will doom Model 3P times on any track.

Interesting new information: Tesla is updating Model 3 to allow higher power output for longer periods, increases top speed

According to sources familiar with the matter, Tesla is working on a ‘2019.12’ update to be released in the coming weeks that will enable Model 3 vehicles to maintain power at high speeds.

The company wrote in the release notes:

“Your car is now able to maintain torque and power for longer periods of time when driving at high speeds.”
And for Performance Model 3s: “The top speed of your car has also been increased to 162 MPH.”

 

[wenkan]

That's a highly unlikely, more like an impossible, scenario.
If TM3P can't clock a "quicker-than" lap time at the tiny Lime Rock Park (more like a long autoX course), then it has ZERO chance of posting competitive time on the uber-long Nordschleife.

As an owner of BMW M3 and TM3P (love both cars), I can tell you that the suspension and handling of BMW M3 is significantly more advanced that Tesla's. Power is comparable, and the immediate acceleration is greater with TM3P due to the 4WD setup. But the extra weight (+450 lbs), smaller tires (235mm is comparable to basic 3-series, not track-ready M3), lack of top end power, and handling limitations will doom Model 3P times on any track.



I would be presently surprised if TM3P clock in under 8 minutes.
Maybe 8:30s or thereabouts, depends on how much the battery overheats, and how soon.

a

It depends on the testing media’s intention. If they want to make a better lap time, they can replace the wheels and suspension. Nextmove mentioned if going Nürburgring they would use KW suspension. 265/35/19 tires with race tires will also improve the lap time.

 

[GregD60]

I think it's worth noting that a regular U.S. spec BMW M3 is extremely unlikely to break 8 minutes on the Nurburgring. Also, a U.S. spec BMW M3 is limited to 155 MPH top speed; I should have mentioned that in my prior post. The 163 MPH top speed is only available with an optional driver's package in Europe.