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any permanent battery degradation driving in extreme cold?
- Thread starter ay221
- Start date
Talk to @AAKEE and you'll understand that the answer to your question is no. Batteries last longer in cold weather and the car limits the power draw when the battery is cold. You'll feel there is less power but that's about it. The user manual does warn against leaving the car in lower than -30C (-22F) for more than 24h at a time but I haven't heard anyone having problems with the few days where that might happen.
Your ICE car will suffer quite a lot more when you simply start it in that weather. If you want it to last, you're better to drive the EV and keep the ICE for when it's warmer
Your ICE car will suffer quite a lot more when you simply start it in that weather. If you want it to last, you're better to drive the EV and keep the ICE for when it's warmer
Where I live (close to the Artic Circle) we have some two-three months with really cold weather.
We have had a about 1 1/2 week period now with mostly -20C / -4F and down to -25C / -13F numerous times.
The lithium batteries get much slower degradation by time at low temperatures.
But cycling wear increases when the battery is very cold. For a new car, the degradation from time still is worse.
I use preconditioning (planned departure) when the car is parked outside (specially if it was parked long time.)
Preconditioning for departure hears the battery to about +7C (at least the last winter) so there will be no blue snowflake at the battery symbol. This cost a bit energy but its anyway nice to enter a tempered cabin instead of -35C.
When the battery is really cold I do not floor the accelerator. I mostly use Chill mode to save the studded tyres anyway.
In January and February we have really cold and its normal with some three weeks in a row with lows like -30C /-25F or colder than that.
My car ( 2 years, 2021 model 3 P) has done 55K km and I still have 78.6 kWh nominal full pack. Full range is some 494-495km out of 507km new and the average M3P-21 at teslafi has lost about three times more (avg range at the same miles is 472km).
Appearently there is another M3P -21 that keeps his battery in nice shape
So No, the cold will not kill your battery if you use a sound approach to the cold.
-Precondition
-Do not use all power when the battery is cold
-If you have the possibility, charge just before the drive: this helps keeping the battery warm for the drive.
The BMS limits the power anyway @AAKEE, I don't see why you can't use what's available. I've parked my car outside a few times in winter (normally it's in a heated garage). I remember one morning at -21C where ScanMyTesla was reporting a max power output of 100-120kW (No preheating). The car was slow...
Tesla is forced to make a compromise between saving the battery and to not make
people irritated by having a extremely slow car.
The first winter with the 2021 and 2170L there was a lot if complaints about that the car couldnt even keep the speed at low SOC after the heat pump had taken (too much) heat from the batteries.
Tesla protects the battery from dangerous levels, but my tip still is to not use too much power if one would like to reduce the impact from a very cold battery.
They were extracting heat from the battery to save energy warming the cabin in that specific case. I remember Bjorn's videos on that topic, with the heat pump. Yes, that made the car more sluggish, which was to protect the battery. I don't see your point in this specific case. Tesla now scavenges less heat so there is more power available. The BMS is probably applying exactly the same protection logic but since the pack is warmer, it allows more power.
They actually increased the power limit for low temps also (spring 2021).
They allow the battery pack to droop more (in Voltage) during use of power. Most probably because they did have enough/more data on the 2170L.
The “use of reosonable power” that I propose is my advice, I live by this. I am sure this can reduce the cyclic aging when the battery is cold.
How much anyone like to ”save the battery” is up to anyone ”himself” (or her self of course).
In one end of the battery saving scale we could just follow Teslas few simple advice, as they protect the car. Charging daily to 90% even during the hot period in a hot climate is within Teslas advice.
In the other end there is much to do to reduce the degradation from the ”Tesla advice level”.
Tesla limits ”too much” wear/degradation but they need to compromise sometimes, like the risk of creating cues at the Superchargers or having power limits that make the car unusable.
Candleflame
Active Member
the batteries operating temperature is 45C. if its freezing on a newer car the heat pump will syphon some of that.... but the battery wont be cold.
There is no fixed battery operating temp.
The battery operates at the temperature it has when starting the drive. And then it either heats from discharging or cools from the heat pump needing the excess heat.
The battery will have about the same temp as the ambient. In sunny weather the battery is often about 5C hotter than the ambient if the car is parked in the sun.
For winter driving, if the aambient is -10C, the battery eventually will be -10C if parked outside without charging.
The battery cools quite much in about 5 hours if the car is left in the cold.
Preconditioning for departure means the battery heats to about 6.5-7C (last winters values). Driving after departure means the battery heats slow but progressive.
When the cell temp reach 17C the heatpump take the heat from the battery and heats the cabin and the batt temp goes down to 12C, then it heats from discharging to 17C again.
Any driving in a climate that need the battery heat to heat the cabin will result in a battery temp between 12C and 17C for a heat pump M3.
Best operating range for a battery to have the least cyclic aging is about 25-35C. 45 is not bad either for cycling.
Many people own and operate EV's in colder climates. @AAKEE, in particular, does an excellent job in this forum of showcasing how EV's can be successfully and happily used in very cold weather.
That said, the OP raises an excellent question. My short answer to that is yes, extreme cold weather absolutely poses a threat to the long-term health of EV battery packs. Those threats can be be mitigated by taking steps such as those outlined by @AAKEE . But ignoring weather and just driving the car and assuming that Tesla will prevent anything bad happening is, unfortunately, just not true.
I love Tesla and what they've done. But it's helpful to understand that what is good for Tesla is frequently not good for individual Tesla owners. DC Fast Charging is an example of that. Tesla engineers things so that you get in and out of their Superchargers as quickly as possible. Both so it's a favorable user experience and so your quickly leaving frees up the stall for the next driver. And the community word-of-mouth does a great job of touting how great that all is. YouTube has countless videos celebrating the very high charge rates achieved when someone rolls into a Supercharger at a low SOC. And disappointment if they don't hit whatever charge rate milestone they were hoping for.
The almost-never-spoken secret is that, for those EV owners who would prefer to prioritize battery life over YouTube likes, a lesser charging rate and less heat put into the battery would be far better for long-term battery health.
Degradation of Lithium batteries is a fact of life in the EV world and it cannot be avoided. Buy an EV and you're going to start losing capacity the moment you drive it off the lot. It's discussed incessantly in forums like this, for good reason. And because we have all those discussions, common wisdom like not maintaining high SOC's any longer than necessary, or minimizing DC Fast Charging... become well known.
What doesn't get discussed very much is probably the worst thing that can happen to your EV battery pack: Lithium plating.
Lithium plating, like calendar aging or cycle aging, is going to happen. But like those other degradation mechanisms, there are things you can do to slow it down; and there are things you can do that speed it up.
Lithium plating begins accelerating significantly as temperatures fall, and as C-rates (how fast you're charging or discharging your battery) rise. Do both of those at the same time and you've entered the worst of all possible worlds.
But won't Tesla's BMS protect my car?
Tesla's engineers are, of course, well aware of all these issues. They try and protect your car. When we see the blue snowflake or the bacon strips we know the BMS is limiting functions like regen and charging speeds for that very reason.
But Tesla is limited by physics. If your pack is cold-soaked after sitting outside overnight in very cold temps, it's going to take quite awhile before the BMS can get the pack even moderately warm. And Lithium plating can occur at surprisingly moderate temps.
Tesla engineers are also hamstrung by the need to not use too much energy to do things like protect the pack. There are already countless people complaining about "phantom drain." So the engineers do the best they can, considering that - broadly speaking - they're dealing with an uneducated population of users.
Like most of the effects involved in Lithium battery degradation, Lithium plating is not a thing that happens at a discrete, definable threshold. It has been observed at C-rates above 2.0 even at 50C (122F) (which is why Tesla preheats the battery to such high temps when navigating to a Supercharger). It has been observed at 25C (77F) at C-rates of 1.0. And at 12C (53F), which most of us think of as quite moderate, it has been observed at a C-rate of 0.5.
The deal is this: as temperatures decline, the C-rate at which Lithium plating begins to happen declines as well. In extreme cold conditions, the C-rate at which significant Lithium plating risk exists is quite low... almost certainly below that which our cars' BMS limits us to.
Yes, the BMS helps limit the damage. But Tesla would sell no cars if they engineered things so avoiding Lithium plating was the biggest priority.
The big picture for Tesla is getting nearly all of us through the warranty period with no more than 30% battery degradation. That's not a very high bar.
For those of us who wish for better than that, getting our pack warmed up before we use it to drive, or before we charge it, is probably the nicest thing we can do for it.
That said, the OP raises an excellent question. My short answer to that is yes, extreme cold weather absolutely poses a threat to the long-term health of EV battery packs. Those threats can be be mitigated by taking steps such as those outlined by @AAKEE . But ignoring weather and just driving the car and assuming that Tesla will prevent anything bad happening is, unfortunately, just not true.
I love Tesla and what they've done. But it's helpful to understand that what is good for Tesla is frequently not good for individual Tesla owners. DC Fast Charging is an example of that. Tesla engineers things so that you get in and out of their Superchargers as quickly as possible. Both so it's a favorable user experience and so your quickly leaving frees up the stall for the next driver. And the community word-of-mouth does a great job of touting how great that all is. YouTube has countless videos celebrating the very high charge rates achieved when someone rolls into a Supercharger at a low SOC. And disappointment if they don't hit whatever charge rate milestone they were hoping for.
The almost-never-spoken secret is that, for those EV owners who would prefer to prioritize battery life over YouTube likes, a lesser charging rate and less heat put into the battery would be far better for long-term battery health.
Degradation of Lithium batteries is a fact of life in the EV world and it cannot be avoided. Buy an EV and you're going to start losing capacity the moment you drive it off the lot. It's discussed incessantly in forums like this, for good reason. And because we have all those discussions, common wisdom like not maintaining high SOC's any longer than necessary, or minimizing DC Fast Charging... become well known.
What doesn't get discussed very much is probably the worst thing that can happen to your EV battery pack: Lithium plating.
Lithium plating, like calendar aging or cycle aging, is going to happen. But like those other degradation mechanisms, there are things you can do to slow it down; and there are things you can do that speed it up.
Lithium plating begins accelerating significantly as temperatures fall, and as C-rates (how fast you're charging or discharging your battery) rise. Do both of those at the same time and you've entered the worst of all possible worlds.
But won't Tesla's BMS protect my car?
Tesla's engineers are, of course, well aware of all these issues. They try and protect your car. When we see the blue snowflake or the bacon strips we know the BMS is limiting functions like regen and charging speeds for that very reason.
But Tesla is limited by physics. If your pack is cold-soaked after sitting outside overnight in very cold temps, it's going to take quite awhile before the BMS can get the pack even moderately warm. And Lithium plating can occur at surprisingly moderate temps.
Tesla engineers are also hamstrung by the need to not use too much energy to do things like protect the pack. There are already countless people complaining about "phantom drain." So the engineers do the best they can, considering that - broadly speaking - they're dealing with an uneducated population of users.
Like most of the effects involved in Lithium battery degradation, Lithium plating is not a thing that happens at a discrete, definable threshold. It has been observed at C-rates above 2.0 even at 50C (122F) (which is why Tesla preheats the battery to such high temps when navigating to a Supercharger). It has been observed at 25C (77F) at C-rates of 1.0. And at 12C (53F), which most of us think of as quite moderate, it has been observed at a C-rate of 0.5.
The deal is this: as temperatures decline, the C-rate at which Lithium plating begins to happen declines as well. In extreme cold conditions, the C-rate at which significant Lithium plating risk exists is quite low... almost certainly below that which our cars' BMS limits us to.
Yes, the BMS helps limit the damage. But Tesla would sell no cars if they engineered things so avoiding Lithium plating was the biggest priority.
The big picture for Tesla is getting nearly all of us through the warranty period with no more than 30% battery degradation. That's not a very high bar.
For those of us who wish for better than that, getting our pack warmed up before we use it to drive, or before we charge it, is probably the nicest thing we can do for it.
Thanks for the tips. Since I don't have to go anywhere the next couple of days. I'm just leaving the car in the garage. Outdoor temp was -10F at one point and the garage was 38F. Even though 38F should be fine with charging, I left the car unplugged so it wouldn't be able to. Coldest night tonight then start heading to 50s by Sunday.
I watched most the above. NONE of them were "Supercharger". Please avoid using "Supercharger" when referring to DC fast charging on other standards (e.g. CCS (which he used) or CHAdeMO). He did succeed DC FCing on ChargePoint CPE250 and EVgo's Signet and Delta units + the old (not-replaced) ABB DC FC with CCS1 + CHAdeMO.
In the US, there are 3 DC fast charge standards for consumer EVs/PHEVs:
- Tesla Supercharger- uses Tesla's proprietary connector used in North America, Japan and South Korea (+ maybe others), now called NACS
- CCS1 aka Combo1 flavor of CCS aka SAE Combo aka J1772 CCS
- CHadeMO
About halfway down of What is CHAdeMO charging? has a visual aid of these connector along w/others that don't exist in the US like CCS2 and GB/T.
Pages 10 and 11 (lower right corner page numbers) of https://acep.uaf.edu/media/304144/Cold-Weather-Issues-for-EVs-in-Alaska.pdf also discuss lithium plating.
Okay, I'm getting older and I read thru your comment twice, but I didn't see where you said why lithium plating was "the worst thing that can happen to your EV battery pack"?
See pages 10 and 11 (lower right corner page numbers) of https://acep.uaf.edu/media/304144/Cold-Weather-Issues-for-EVs-in-Alaska.pdf.
Tesla cars will not charge if the battery is too cold, but Teslas heat the battery.
We do not have the same designations (L1 etc) in EU but even with singel phase 10/13A (2-3kW) I have charged at -20 to -25C (-4 to -13F). The car heat the battery to above freezing levels before it start to charge.
At -10C my M3P keeps the battery at +8 to +9C with 3kW charging.
Charging in cold with a Tesla will not be that thing that cause big degradation.
My car is still on top when it comes to (low) degradation after 2 years / 56K km (35k mi).
If charging in cold climate was, it wouldn’t.
Just getting in the car for a 240km/160mi drive to work, presentöy -5F outside, but the car is in the garage before.
Not answering in regajs place but lithium
Plating comes from high charging speeds in relation to Battery temperature.
I thrust Teslas battery heating in cold weather so Im not worried for that.
Higher charging power like Supercharging etc, for this I always precondition the battery. Even if Tesla reduce the rate with a cold battery I think the reduced rate is a compromise of wear vs time ( ques at superchargers etc).
Battery internal resistance increases as temperatures decline. Lithium plating is basically a phenomenon whereby that increased resistance causes the rate of ion absorption in the anode - a process called intercalation - to fall below the rate at which ions are being delivered from the cathode. Those excess ions collect on the surface of the anode and instead of being absorbed within the anode, they begin to produce a metallic plating on the surface.
That's bad for a couple of reasons. The first being that ions lost via that process are (mostly) permanently lost. Less ions in the battery mean less capacity.
As Lithium plating continues to worsen, dendrites can form and can result in short-circuit and outright cell failure. Lithium plating is an irreversible process.
Since Lithium plating is fundamentally about the ions moving through the battery faster than they can be absorbed, anything we can do to slow that ion transport will be helpful in minimizing the phenomenon. That's a roundabout way of saying reduce your C-rate.
The link posted by @cwerdna has a much more detailed overview. A few quick snippets from that document...
"The most dangerous effect of cold temperatures on batteries is lithium plating, the formation of metallic lithium around the anode during charging, which can cause batteries to malfunction."
"Lithium plating is a risk in EVs charged at battery temperatures below 0°C (32°F), or fast charged below 10°C (50°F)."
"In an experiment at −10°C (14°F) and a 0.5C rate, the battery permanently lost 25% of its capacity after only 40 charge cycles. One charge cycle at 0°C (32°F) at a 1C-rate caused a 3.6% irreversible capacity loss. For these reasons, charge rate is generally severely limited at low temperatures (and charge times greatly increased) to protect the life of the battery. Even up to temperatures as high as 10°C (50°F), lithium plating can occur during fast charging."
"In summary, the cold temperature testing of Li-ion batteries has exposed three temperature thresholds of concern: ● Under 10°C (50°F): Lithium plating and permanent degradation can occur with fast charging below this temperature. ● Under 0°C (32°F): This is the recommended lowest temperature for normal use of standard Li-ion batteries. Below this temperature, anything faster than Level 1 charging may cause lithium plating degradation. ● Under -20°C (-4°F): In addition to significantly reduced charging and discharging power capabilities, the recommended storage range (no active charge or discharge) is generally down to about -20°C (-4°F) for standard Li ion batteries used in EVs. The battery may not survive prolonged temperatures below this threshold."
In sum, I'm not saying you shouldn't use your EV in cold weather. But if you care about the long-term health of your battery, you probably ought to warm it up first. (@KenC , you might be the lone exception. They apparently sprinkled fairy dust in the mix when they built your battery).
IMHO, the single most important "feature" Tesla could/should provide from within their UI is Average Cell Temperature. That's a stat that's available to those of us running Scan My Tesla. But most folks are flying blind.
Can you manually precondition the battery? Does turning climate on precondition the battery as if you used scheduled departure with the precondition option?
Yes, mostly. Turning on Climate will also trigger heating of the battery if it's cold enough. Unfortunately, the car's UI doesn't provide any indication of when that cold-enough threshold has been reached and the battery is being actively heated, versus the threshold wasn't reached and only the cabin is being heated.
But, yes, turning Climate on for a good while before driving when it's cold out is the best thing most drivers can do.
(if I were having a conversation with the Tesla engineers, I would argue for raising the pack-heating threshold... but that's a different topic).
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