AP2 Chatter, Gripes, etc.

[AnxietyRanger]

@Joe F You forgot four cameras (i.e. better non-front detection). Only one or two have been used so far depending on the firmware, I believe we may be back to one at this time? Two max.

You forgot about Smart Summon and Autosteer+ and all that. Nothing Smart or + available yet... Check out how Tesla markets and has marketed AP2...

Autopilot

EAP, as released, has nothing really Enhanced functionality-wise over AP1. In October 2016 the reasonable interpretation was that EAP would be an enhanced AP, its Summon would be complex Smart Summon, its auto-steering would be the plus version with more automation etc., but that has not happened at all yet, indeed it misses some functionality AP1 has instead.

 

[Pentium2004]

Your wipers aren't yet rain-sensing.

The navigation and map data apparently is not yet sufficient to automatically transition from one highway to another, and you have to manually steer the car yourself while they sort it out.

What other features of EAP do those here feel they do not have?

• match speed to traffic conditions. Nope, got that
  
• keep within a lane. Nope, got that too.
  
• automatically change lanes without requiring driver input. Well, kinda got that. Move the lever, not that difficult. Partial fail.
  
• transition from one freeway to another. FAIL, although if your car is lane changed to the exit it will transition to the next highway, just not automated yet.
  
• self-park when near a parking spot. Nope, got that.
  
• be summoned to and from your garage. Nope, that too works.

I don't think I've missed anything.

Why all the angst, one has to wonder...

I believe you’re missing the E in EAP. How are any of the features above better than regular auto pilot?

 

[Joe F]

Well, I'm sorry to hear that.

I really thought it would explain my ethics view behind the use of the word "expected".

If I tell you I expect something to happen that I inside my head really don't expect to happen, or something I should know is not reasonable to expect to happen, that is VERY different from saying "expected" reasonably and that expectation simply not being met... That is was the point.

Thank you. Concise and easily digestible in an Internet pace.

Unfortunately it's a non trivial, complex problem. Believing it's easily solvable was probably naive, but the thought that it was an intentional act to lie to people and bilk people on something they had no intention of delivering is, IMHO, wrong.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Believing it's easily solvable was probably naive, but the thought that it was an intentional act to lie to people and bilk people on something they had no intention of delivering is, IMHO, wrong.

I can agree we don't know what Tesla knew. That, I think, would be the interesting bit in a legal process.

 

[Joe F]

@Joe F You forgot four cameras (i.e. better non-front detection). Only one or two have been used so far depending on the firmware, I believe we may be back to one at this time? Two max.

You forgot about Smart Summon and Autosteer+ and all that. Nothing Smart or + available yet... Check out how Tesla markets and has marketed AP2...

Autopilot

EAP, as released, has nothing really Enhanced functionality-wise over AP1. In October 2016 the reasonable interpretation was that EAP would be an enhanced AP, its Summon would be complex Smart Summon, its auto-steering would be the plus version with more automation etc., but that has not happened at all yet, indeed it misses some functionality AP1 has instead.

Smart summon was something they pushed in AP1 days. Agreed it was a total fail. It is not on the AP2 web page so it's not pertinent.

Increased number of cameras, improved sensors, radar and processing power are on all AP2 cars. This is the H/W enhanced part of AP2, as I'm sure you're well aware.

Scroll down on that link you posted and read the points I listed up-thread. What's your point?

If you're referring to the video, that's FSD and is a superset add-on to EAP. And, not activated. When? Who knows. I sure don't.

While this was fun, dinner and life calls.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

If you're referring to the video, that's FSD

I am not. All I'm saying is about EAP.

Smart summon was something they pushed in AP1 days. Agreed it was a total fail. It is not on the AP2 web page so it's not pertinent.

It has been on the Tesla website since AP2 announcement days. It still says Smart Summon and has this image:

Increased number of cameras, improved sensors, radar and processing power are on all AP2 cars. This is the H/W enhanced part of AP2, as I'm sure you're well aware.

I don't agree that is what Enhanced in EAP refers to, though. The picture explains clearly and for example mentions seeing fast-approaching cars on other lanes - this requires visual blind-spot detection, something not yet available...

 

[Swift]

Wow, a lot of posts since I stepped away. As Joe ended his last post, dinner and life we’re calling. Time slips by. That’s what is happening with Tesla here. They charged a bunch of money for these features without a clue on how to really deliver them in a reasonable timeframe. And by reasonable, I mean when Tesla say expected in December 2016, we shouldn’t be talking about it in 2018, which at this point looks to be inevitable. Not for something we paid for. Not for something where people are halfway through their leases. And what of FSD? Will it be delivered during the ownership cycle of my car? Doubtful. Not a problem except they took my money for it without any real sense of what they could actually deliver and when...

 

[ChrML]

Wow, a lot of posts since I stepped away. As Joe ended his last post, dinner and life we’re calling. Time slips by. That’s what is happening with Tesla here. They charged a bunch of money for these features without a clue on how to really deliver them in a reasonable timeframe. And by reasonable, I mean when Tesla say expected in December 2016, we shouldn’t be talking about it in 2018, which at this point looks to be inevitable. Not for something we paid for. Not for something where people are halfway through their leases. And what of FSD? Will it be delivered during the ownership cycle of my car? Doubtful. Not a problem except they took my money for it without any real sense of what they could actually deliver and when...

Just remember to note that FSD was never promised in December 2016. FSD was never given a timeframe other than coast-to-coast demonstration by the end of 2017. That suggests at least a year until FSD is ready for the masses and another year until certified, which brings us to January 2020 before having all sold features.

But autopilot they did announce in December 2016, released by the end of January, but not really usable until June. They still don't have all EAP features, but they are not really much more than 6 months late.

The lack of new features and the demo video suggests FSD being an entirely different codebase. And the current AP being somewhat bridge to the gap, given the time it takes to get FSD running well enough for release. They had to release something, and when they couldn't use the MobilEye chip to preserve old features, they had to replace it, while the replacement is not really useful for FSD given entirely different principles. FSD can drive without lane markers remember.

 

[Joe F]

I believe you’re missing the E in EAP. How are any of the features above better than regular auto pilot?

The E in Enhanced is the enhanced H/W. Do you not know your car has enhanced H/W over an AP1 car?

I am not. All I'm saying is about EAP.



It has been on the Tesla website since AP2 announcement days. It still says Smart Summon and has this image


I don't agree that is what Enhanced in EAP refers to, though. The picture explains clearly and for example mentions seeing fast-approaching cars on other lanes - this requires visual blind-spot detection, something not yet available...

Ah, I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing out smart summon is still in play. I guess I discounted it as a defunct AP1 feature. In all honesty though, at the snails pace summon moves at, who’d use it at that distance? And currently it’s limited to 39 feet, so would be even less of a useful feature.

And you’re correct regarding side camera pending use, which we all know haven’t been activated. I guess I view that as more of a FSD enabling feature, given that I’m responsible as the driver for the vehicles operation, including lane changes. I use my eyes and mirrors for that currently.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

@Joe F You forgot four cameras (i.e. better non-front detection). Only one or two have been used so far depending on the firmware, I believe we may be back to one at this time? Two max.

You forgot about Smart Summon and Autosteer+ and all that. Nothing Smart or + available yet... Check out how Tesla markets and has marketed AP2...

Autopilot

EAP, as released, has nothing really Enhanced functionality-wise over AP1. In October 2016 the reasonable interpretation was that EAP would be an enhanced AP, its Summon would be complex Smart Summon, its auto-steering would be the plus version with more automation etc., but that has not happened at all yet, indeed it misses some functionality AP1 has instead.

The + part is arguable. Certain members here who own both have stated that AP2 handles tight curves significantly better than AP1, which satisfies Tesla’s description of it.

For myself, I don’t have enough experience with AP1 to say it’s better, but with the current 50.2 FW, I have yet to find a curve it couldn’t navigate perfectly.

 

[TaoJones]

Rain-X.

From others who have AP1 and auto wipers, they're not that good anyhow. Consider yourself lucky they eliminated the crappy sensor...

If your major issue with your car is not having auto wipers (yet), properly deep clean your windshield and apply Rain-X and/or Aquapel.

There's little to no need to use the wipers in any volume of rain...

Of course, this completely disregards what people use wipers for the other 75% of the time (when it's not raining or snowing). And that would be to remove the chitinous (tm Bighorn) carcasses of winged critters. Aka bugs. Something with which you'd think Tesla would be familiar with (try the veal).

For bug removal, no amount of "Rain-X and/or Aquapel" will help if you don't have effective wiper coverage for the top third of the windshield. Put another way, you'll be sorely disappointed if you don't have some detailer spray and a microfiber towel at (as frequently as) every SC stop while underway in pretty much every part of the country except SoCal.

Sooooo.... while autosensing wipers were never very high on my list with AP1, it would be of significantly more use to get proper wiper coverage in the first place and, more importantly, adequate jet/spray coverage *with the new jets*. A challenge that has stumped many a service center. Curious to hear what our Model 3 brethren have to say in this regard as I haven't yet caught up with the folks that did the first cross-country trip in a 3 earlier this month.

Otherwise, the over/under for gallons of wiper fluid used over 20,000 miles/year of mostly highway driving would be.... 12.

 

[Joe F]

Of course, this completely disregards what people use wipers for the other 75% of the time (when it's not raining or snowing). And that would be to remove the chitinous (tm Bighorn) carcasses of winged critters. Aka bugs. Something with which you'd think Tesla would be familiar with (try the veal).

For bug removal, no amount of "Rain-X and/or Aquapel" will help if you don't have effective wiper coverage for the top third of the windshield. Put another way, you'll be sorely disappointed if you don't have some detailer spray and a microfiber towel at (as frequently as) every SC stop while underway in pretty much every part of the country except SoCal.

Sooooo.... while autosensing wipers were never very high on my list with AP1, it would be of significantly more use to get proper wiper coverage in the first place and, more importantly, adequate jet/spray coverage *with the new jets*. A challenge that has stumped many a service center. Curious to hear what our Model 3 brethren have to say in this regard as I haven't yet caught up with the folks that did the first cross-country trip in a 3 earlier this month.

Otherwise, the over/under for gallons of wiper fluid used over 20,000 miles/year of mostly highway driving would be.... 12.

The complaints voiced here was about rain sensing wipers, not bug carcasses. Do try to stay on topic. JK

I have no problem with the coverage of my wipers when I really do need them, but if you saw the organizer in my trunk, you’d see the very same detailing supplies and window cleaners of which you speak. At least in warmer weather. Actually not there now due to the temperatures, except for a can of window cleaner.

 

[ucmndd]

The E in Enhanced is the enhanced H/W. Do you not know your car has enhanced H/W over an AP1 car?
.

Bollocks. The first sentence in the EAP description says “Enhances Autopilot adds new CAPABILITIES to the Tesla Autopilot driving experience.”

Capabilities. Not cameras.

 

[HankLloydRight]

I'm quoting this from another thread, since it more belongs in this thread:

. Suddenly I see this truck right next to me moving into the same lane AP is darting into. We're both about one quarter of the way into the same lane and rapidly approaching each other!

It's situations like this which is why I'm so very skeptical on FSD happening any time soon. I see events like this almost everyday where I say "no way a computer would be able to figure that out". A lot of driving encompases watching other drivers and anticipating what they *might* do, and reacting to that before they do it. In other words, intuition. I don't see AP ever being able to do that effectively. AP can only really react to what cars are currently doing. They'll never be able to take into account human unpredictabilities until such time that all cars are on AP and communicating with each other, and the human element is essentially removed from the equation.

If I see a car/driver driving erratically, I do what I can to steer clear of them and avoid any kind of altercation. Around here, there are A LOT of those "R" guys in the souped up Honda CRXs or Subarus (you know the kind with huge wings on the back) who think they're Mario Andretti speeding down the crowded highway weaving in and out of very tightly packed traffic. These guys cut in front of people with just a few inches of margin, or even less (see video link below).

What would a more advanced AP do in this case? Would it see the pickup truck quickly approaching me from the left and swerve right to avoid a crash? What if there was another car there or a guardrail? Sometimes even given extreme inputs like that, the best move is to do nothing.

One time I saw an 18-wheeler in the right lane about to get cut-off by a small car in front of him.. his only move was to swerve into my center lane ... and if I didn't immediately slow down to give him space to swerve, he would have side-swiped me into the left lane where there was other traffic. Luckily there was nobody behind me to give me room for him to move left to avoid the car in front of him. I don't expect any AP ever to handle a situation like that.

video:

 

[AnxietyRanger]

They'll never be able to take into account human unpredictabilities until such time that all cars are on AP and communicating with each other, and the human element is essentially removed from the equation.

Well, I guess a sufficiently trained neural network could develop a similar intuition. Whether or not that is realism with AP2 is quite another matter.

The rules-based approach that at least on some level still seems relevant in autonomous driving (even those who use NNs extensively do use some level of algorithmic rules) is good in the sense that it can be used to develop certain rules that can mimick intuition, for example watching certain cars in the mapped space and assuming the worst in preparation.

 

[Joe F]

Bollocks. The first sentence in the EAP description says “Enhances Autopilot adds new CAPABILITIES to the Tesla Autopilot driving experience.”

Capabilities. Not cameras.

And those capabilities are achievable due the the ENHANCED H/W, at least once turned on. It's a system, both H/W and S/W. You limited it to cameras, not me.

 

[Joe F]

It's situations like this which is why I'm so very skeptical on FSD happening any time soon. I see events like this almost everyday where I say "no way a computer would be able to figure that out". A lot of driving encompases watching other drivers and anticipating what they *might* do, and reacting to that before they do it. In other words, intuition. I don't see AP ever being able to do that effectively. AP can only really react to what cars are currently doing. They'll never be able to take into account human unpredictabilities until such time that all cars are on AP and communicating with each other, and the human element is essentially removed from the equation.

While I'm old school and share your thoughts, and have said as much earlier, I in no way understand NN's at all. Even the experts are on record stating they don't know how they work. It's not programming as I know it.

However, as @AnxietyRanger points out, it's something a NN can learn. I too however share his thought on AP2 possibly being insufficient, as it stands today, to accomplish the goal.

Having read the info and more importantly the video's Karpathy has posted on Twitter, it's eye opening what NN's can accomplish, and do so far faster then we mere mortals can.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

Even the experts are on record stating they don't know how they work

Kind of. For non-trivial networks, they’re too complex to understand how they’re solving that particular task. But, from a higher level of abstraction, we know quite well how they work. If we didn’t, coming up with improvements to architectures of networks would be a guessing game

 

[headcase]

After driving a brand new Model S loaner with AP2 for over a 1,500 mile road trip with the family, I'm just personally glad to have my AP1 2016 Model S back for daily use, with its "limited" features. I don't care what anyone says... AP2 (even on recent firmware 2017.46.9) is NOT ready for primetime.

Heck, even when only using a feature that is common and functional on other cars from other manufactures, namely adaptive cruise control, was outright dangerous on the AP2 car. IMHO, I wouldn't even consider it viable "public betaware" in its current form on AP2. I've never driven a car from any manufacturer where the adaptive cruise control kept braking on the highway after incorrectly marking a car in another lane as being in my lane. And that happened multiple times, all on well marked roads in clear weather. WOW. Even using this feature in 5 MPH stop-and-go traffic wasn't worth the sudden harsh braking versus the more predictable and smoother AP1 behavior.

And forget steering with AP2. Its just not there yet versus AP1. Basically made all of my family car sick with repeated knee-jerking little adjustments. The only time AP2 was really usable, was when it was on very straight highway with no cars around. Otherwise, too much unexpected behavior with the family literally begging me to drive. And don't even mention the overly-aggressive and nauseating lane changes with AP2. Who are the idiots at Tesla who would approve this kind of behavior for daily driving? Race car drivers?

So all-in-all, I'm perfectly content with my AP1 car, even if there are no new features going forward. Now I really understand and empathize with AP2 owners who are complaining and even downgrading to CPO AP1 cars. Ouch.

 

[Joe F]

After driving a brand new Model S loaner with AP2 for over a 1,500 mile road trip with the family, I'm just personally glad to have my AP1 2016 Model S back for daily use, with its "limited" features. I don't care what anyone says... AP2 (even on recent firmware 2017.46.9) is NOT ready for primetime.

[snip]

So all-in-all, I'm perfectly content with my AP1 car, even if there are no new features going forward. Now I really understand and empathize with AP2 owners who are complaining and even downgrading to CPO AP1 cars. Ouch.

Thanks. That was helpful in comparing AP1 to AP2.

Question: Did you ever own or drive an AP1 Tesla in the early days when AP was first turned on? If so, how would you compare early AP1 performance with AP2?

If not, do you believe your comparing a more mature firmware AP1 car you drive with an AP2 Tesla is a fair comparison?