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Audiophiles - Amazon Music Ultra HD?

is95aus

Member
Jun 28, 2018
73
31
Maryland
For you audiophiles, how does the sound quality of Amazon's Ultra HD compare to lossless audio on USB? Are we able to benefit from the hi-res when listening over bluetooth, or is it lost over bluetooth? Amazon is making a lot of noise regarding Dolby Atmos immersive music as well, and am wondering if its worth the extra cost.
 

troydavis

New Member
Sep 28, 2019
1
0
South Jordan, UT
Just upgraded to Amazon's new HD music service and tried it with my Model 3 LR AWD (which includes premium audio), and it sounds fantastic, with noticeable quality improvements from before. A few things are needed to get great sound from a mobile device to the Tesla Model 3 going wireless. First a device that can output audio at a high bitrate using a lossless codec (am using an iPhone XR w/ 24-bit, 48Khz capability, and most recent iPhones can stream at this same high/HD-level quality), Then you need a streaming service that will stream at a lossless/high quality - in this case, Amazon's new HD streaming rates are now "HD" at 24-bit, 44Khz in a lossless format on tens of millions of songs, or even higher with their UltraHD format on "millions" of songs which can go up to 24-bit, 192 Khz. Third, the Tesla needs to support a high-quality bluetooth connection, which it now does with V10, with Tesla stating " Bluetooth media supports 48 KHz sampling rate for better audio quality."

Not sure what it was before but it did not sound as good without the upgrade to Amazon HD and V10 in the Model 3. With those three things in place, there is now a lossless high quality/HD music experience and it sounds fantastic. Could it be even better technically - yes, as but it is a significant upgrade and I'm guessing the difference between this setup and something better is much more marginal and tougher to discern.

Not sure how it compares to the USB experience with USB lossless songs.
 

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
1,831
2,264
Seattle
I'm a bit skeptical about this. Bluetooth codecs in use today (SBC, AAC, AptX) are all lossy, so I'm not sure about the reference to "lossless codec". I've streamed FLAC (lossless) files via Bluetooth and USB to the car, and USB is clearly better (though the differences are subtle, and would almost certainly not significant when listening on the road).
 

Chewy3

If MacGvyer had a beard
Apr 30, 2016
355
813
San Diego
Sorry, this is slightly off-topic, but since I have a few audiophiles here anyways...Anyone know the bitrate for Spotify on V10?
 

JulienW

Active Member
Jul 7, 2018
2,569
2,801
Atlanta
Sorry, this is slightly off-topic, but since I have a few audiophiles here anyways...Anyone know the bitrate for Spotify on V10?
It would be about the same approximately 64kbps. Bit rate is device selected (car in this case) and since Tesla is paying for data they keep it low. I wish Tesla would offer an option to pay for a higher data rate.
 

NOLA_Mike

Grouchy
May 11, 2013
2,260
3,808
Hammond, LA
It would be about the same approximately 64kbps. Bit rate is device selected (car in this case) and since Tesla is paying for data they keep it low. I wish Tesla would offer an option to pay for a higher data rate.

Or at least let us have maximum available bit rate when on WiFi - I could use my phone as a WiFi Hotspot and relieve Tesla of the data charges.
 

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
1,831
2,264
Seattle
On the more general topic of quality audio, what Tesla needs is (for iPhone users, at least) an iPod style interface via USB. This would cut out the bluetooth codec issues entirely and allow us all to choose music format (MP3, FLAC, ALAC etc), streaming rates etc etc and get the best out of the car audio possible.

I've never quite understood the logic of a premium audio system that provides only one way (USB flash drive) to get lossless HD audio to play.
 

lnsh

Member
Mar 22, 2019
82
72
Walla Walla, WA
newb (Model Y ordered) question: if the phone is connected via USB doesn’t the audio stream travel over USB? sounds like the head unit can receive truly lossless audio from a thumb drive, so shouldn’t a phone be able to deliver the stream that way, too? avoiding any limitations of the bluetooth layer. or is the head unit only capable of pulling from a thumb drive while any phone streams are pushed at the head unit via bluetooth?
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
9,554
10,754
Riverside Co. CA
newb (Model Y ordered) question: if the phone is connected via USB doesn’t the audio stream travel over USB? sounds like the head unit can receive truly lossless audio from a thumb drive, so shouldn’t a phone be able to deliver the stream that way, too? avoiding any limitations of the bluetooth layer. or is the head unit only capable of pulling from a thumb drive while any phone streams are pushed at the head unit via bluetooth?

no, it currently doesnt. Your second statement is correct. Unless the phone is seen as a "USB device" audio is pushed over bluetooth only. So your choice for "hard wired" music is a usb storage device.
 

Leeclanual

Member
Dec 15, 2018
364
199
USA
Just upgraded to Amazon's new HD music service and tried it with my Model 3 LR AWD (which includes premium audio), and it sounds fantastic, with noticeable quality improvements from before. A few things are needed to get great sound from a mobile device to the Tesla Model 3 going wireless. First a device that can output audio at a high bitrate using a lossless codec (am using an iPhone XR w/ 24-bit, 48Khz capability, and most recent iPhones can stream at this same high/HD-level quality), Then you need a streaming service that will stream at a lossless/high quality - in this case, Amazon's new HD streaming rates are now "HD" at 24-bit, 44Khz in a lossless format on tens of millions of songs, or even higher with their UltraHD format on "millions" of songs which can go up to 24-bit, 192 Khz. Third, the Tesla needs to support a high-quality bluetooth connection, which it now does with V10, with Tesla stating " Bluetooth media supports 48 KHz sampling rate for better audio quality."

Not sure what it was before but it did not sound as good without the upgrade to Amazon HD and V10 in the Model 3. With those three things in place, there is now a lossless high quality/HD music experience and it sounds fantastic. Could it be even better technically - yes, as but it is a significant upgrade and I'm guessing the difference between this setup and something better is much more marginal and tougher to discern.

Not sure how it compares to the USB experience with USB lossless songs.

just to clarify... you are just streaming the Amazon HD music App from your iPhone XR through the Bluetooth connection to the model 3?
 

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
1,831
2,264
Seattle
just to clarify... you are just streaming the Amazon HD music App from your iPhone XR through the Bluetooth connection to the model 3?

Yes I was wondering that .. that BT connection on iPhone is NOT lossless the last time I looked. To get anything near potential of sound system you need to have lossless files (e.g. FLAC) read direct from USB drive (car doesnt support ALAC).
 
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GoBeavs

Member
Feb 26, 2018
90
77
Portland, Oregon
Need some audiophiles now that Apple has released both lossless audio and Dolby Atmos Spatial Audio. Question: Would either of these features even benefit me in my MCU 2 Model S?

Lossless: From my research, I’m guessing no. Bluetooth seems to not have the capacity to carry that much information, hence NONE of Apple branded headphones even work with lossless. Maybe I can plug the iPhone in directly via USB? Would that even work?

Spatial Audio: If the files are downloaded on my iPhone with spatial audio, will my Tesla be able to upgrade that over stereo?

Based on my limited knowledge of the subject, it seems to me neither of these features would provide me any benefit whatsoever when streaming downloaded files via Bluetooth. But I’d love to hear from the experts.

Thanks!
 

sduck

Mr. Duck
Nov 6, 2017
1,495
1,472
Nashville TN
Need some audiophiles now that Apple has released both lossless audio and Dolby Atmos Spatial Audio. Question: Would either of these features even benefit me in my MCU 2 Model S?

Lossless: From my research, I’m guessing no. Bluetooth seems to not have the capacity to carry that much information, hence NONE of Apple branded headphones even work with lossless. Maybe I can plug the iPhone in directly via USB? Would that even work?

Spatial Audio: If the files are downloaded on my iPhone with spatial audio, will my Tesla be able to upgrade that over stereo?

Based on my limited knowledge of the subject, it seems to me neither of these features would provide me any benefit whatsoever when streaming downloaded files via Bluetooth. But I’d love to hear from the experts.

Thanks!
Yes, streaming those files via bluetooth will lose the details you want. The best way to preserve most of the audio quality would be by downloading the files and putting them on a USB storage device of some sort and playing from that. You'll lose the flexibility of picking what you want on the spur of the moment, but gain audio quality.
 
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Gasaraki

Active Member
Oct 21, 2019
1,833
1,141
Syracuse, NY
For you audiophiles, how does the sound quality of Amazon's Ultra HD compare to lossless audio on USB? Are we able to benefit from the hi-res when listening over bluetooth, or is it lost over bluetooth? Amazon is making a lot of noise regarding Dolby Atmos immersive music as well, and am wondering if its worth the extra cost.
How much is it? I use Tidal and they have Atmos music.
 

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
1,831
2,264
Seattle
Need some audiophiles now that Apple has released both lossless audio and Dolby Atmos Spatial Audio. Question: Would either of these features even benefit me in my MCU 2 Model S?

Lossless: From my research, I’m guessing no. Bluetooth seems to not have the capacity to carry that much information, hence NONE of Apple branded headphones even work with lossless. Maybe I can plug the iPhone in directly via USB? Would that even work?

Spatial Audio: If the files are downloaded on my iPhone with spatial audio, will my Tesla be able to upgrade that over stereo?

Based on my limited knowledge of the subject, it seems to me neither of these features would provide me any benefit whatsoever when streaming downloaded files via Bluetooth. But I’d love to hear from the experts.

Thanks!
Basically, you can't get lossless audio from your device to the car unless you have a device that can impersonate a USB drive (or, of course, an actual USB drive). iPhone cannot do that (well, it doesnt, though it could with the right software from Apple, but dont hold your breath).

As you note, Bluetooth is going to do lossy compression of some sort (not sure if the car supports AptX or ACC), so that's no good.

OTOH, while the car has a pretty good sound system, I wonder how much difference lossy vs lossless makes, given the noisy environment. Perhaps, when parked, you might hear a difference, but I doubt anyone could really pick up much difference when you are on the move. Of course, others might (and probably will) disagree.
 
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GoBeavs

Member
Feb 26, 2018
90
77
Portland, Oregon
Basically, you can't get lossless audio from your device to the car unless you have a device that can impersonate a USB drive (or, of course, an actual USB drive). iPhone cannot do that (well, it doesnt, though it could with the right software from Apple, but dont hold your breath).

As you note, Bluetooth is going to do lossy compression of some sort (not sure if the car supports AptX or ACC), so that's no good.

OTOH, while the car has a pretty good sound system, I wonder how much difference lossy vs lossless makes, given the noisy environment. Perhaps, when parked, you might hear a difference, but I doubt anyone could really pick up much difference when you are on the move. Of course, others might (and probably will) disagree.
Agreed. Even in the right environment, studies show the average ear would not be able to discern the difference between true lossless and compressed.

That being said, Spatial Audio and Dolby Atmos is a true game changer IMO. Listening to music on compatible headphones is like experiencing HD TV for the first time, but for music. So I’d be curious over time if/when cars start supporting this. Given cars have generally a 4.1 setup, it seems like something definitely achievable.

I’m going to force a Dolby Atmos track from my iPhone to my car LATER and see how it sounds. I tried it on my 5.1 soundbar home theatre system last night and it sounded terrible. But we’ll see if the car is any different.
 

sduck

Mr. Duck
Nov 6, 2017
1,495
1,472
Nashville TN
Dolby atmos requires a 5.1.2 speaker system. While there are enough speakers present to pull that off in these cars, I don't think there are enough amps, or the necessary decoding software (yet). Still, I'd love to hear about what you get from trying!
 

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
1,831
2,264
Seattle
Agreed. Even in the right environment, studies show the average ear would not be able to discern the difference between true lossless and compressed.
Perhaps. But studies also show the "average" wine drinker can't tell a cheap Beaujolais from a Châteauneuf du Pape. But people who love wine can.
 

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
1,831
2,264
Seattle
That being said, Spatial Audio and Dolby Atmos is a true game changer IMO. Listening to music on compatible headphones is like experiencing HD TV for the first time, but for music. So I’d be curious over time if/when cars start supporting this. Given cars have generally a 4.1 setup, it seems like something definitely achievable.
Perhaps .. I listened to some of the sample Atmos/Spatial tracks today, and wasn't very impressed. Mostly I heard the same kind of artificial "widening" effect that has been tried over the years, though it was somewhat better done (thanks to the much better tech available now). And the classical music examples were particularly uninspiring.

(Oh, and your post is a direct quote from Eddy Cue .. have you listened to Atmos, or are you just quoting Apple PR?)
 

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