Autocross- SCCA EV-X Class vs. SS

[Lindenwood]

Let's talk alignment and tire wear:
Do you actually change your front camber when you go to an event and then back?

You always hear that camber doesn't kill tires, toe does. So if you get a really solid alignment done at max camber, aren't you running more risk of getting bad toe by changing FUCA camber and then having to re-do toe using a rule of thumb?

But if Camber doesn't kill tires, why do all the FUCA makers make such a big deal of being able to take camber in/out easily?

I've just been running my AutoX alignment for years now, because I hit events often enough. But now I have a few K mile trip ahead, and trying to decide if it's worth reducing camber or not for the trip, knowing that my toe will likely be less than perfect.

I will easily get 25k+ out of my street set running ~3.3f and ~2.5r camber daily, with zero toe all around.

I tweak to 1mm rear toe-out for racing, but otherwise don’t mess with alignment anymore. This is partially out of convenience and partially to minimize rubbing on my +22 offset wheels with 275s, but I don’t intend to go back to a more standard alignment for street use.

 

[Lindenwood]

I am at 23k miles in 11 months of ownership. Most months look like this from all the road tripping.

I suspect the emphasis on quick-adjustable front camber is a bit of marketing to get more “twice-a-year racers” to invest in FUCAs (and similar parts) without the fear of losing a chunk of tire life. Especially given typical 300tw tires might only go 15k on an M3P, losing 30% of that probably feels substantial. (Of note, I daily on 600tw all-seasons so I would probably get more like 30-35k on factory alignment).

 

[SK360]

Let's talk alignment and tire wear:
Do you actually change your front camber when you go to an event and then back?

You always hear that camber doesn't kill tires, toe does. So if you get a really solid alignment done at max camber, aren't you running more risk of getting bad toe by changing FUCA camber and then having to re-do toe using a rule of thumb?

But if Camber doesn't kill tires, why do all the FUCA makers make such a big deal of being able to take camber in/out easily?

I've just been running my AutoX alignment for years now, because I hit events often enough. But now I have a few K mile trip ahead, and trying to decide if it's worth reducing camber or not for the trip, knowing that my toe will likely be less than perfect.

I used to swap shims... then one time I must have messed up the tie rod adjustment and destroyed my tires quick.

Now I'm full time no shims. I run 0 toe all around and wear seems fine

 

[superflyrolla]

I was about to make a post asking if people even bother changing alignment twice a year for winter, let alone every time you race. After 4 winters now, tie rod ends and camber arms are not easy to turn. I took them all apart and applied anti-sieze last November hoping to make it easier, but I don't think it lasted long.

 

[gearchruncher]

Yeah, the more I keep reading, the more I think I should just stay at my ~3.0 degrees all year and keep that toe at zero. Seems like just one slip up with getting your toe back will do more tire harm than the camber and will also mess up your handling to boot.

Plus, to really perform on the track, you need that rear camber too, and nobody is tweaking their rear camber in and out given the mess toe is in the back.

 

[Yperformance]

Yeah, the more I keep reading, the more I think I should just stay at my ~3.0 degrees all year and keep that toe at zero. Seems like just one slip up with getting your toe back will do more tire harm than the camber and will also mess up your handling to boot.

Plus, to really perform on the track, you need that rear camber too, and nobody is tweaking their rear camber in and out given the mess toe is in the back.

Been running 3.5 neg front and 2.4 rear on my MYP for about 6 months 1/16 toe in on front and 1/16 out on rear. At 42 psi cold wear seems about even.

 

[gearchruncher]

I'm always intrigued what camber arms people are running that get them these high camber numbers. I can't get more than about 2.3 degrees with my Gen 1 MPP FUCAs.

Toe in on front, out on rear? What was the goal with that alignment?

 

[The Other Dan]

What's the max amount of camber anyone has been able to achieve on a M3P? Thru normal or alternative means?

My gen 2 MPP FUCA doesn't get much more.

 

[Lindenwood]

I'm always intrigued what camber arms people are running that get them these high camber numbers. I can't get more than about 2.3 degrees with my Gen 1 MPP FUCAs.

Toe in on front, out on rear? What was the goal with that alignment?

I have found zero/zero toe tends to result in a ton of understeer. To get a neutral balance (specifically, the ability to oversteer on throttle-lift ) I need a not-insignificant amount of rear toe-out, like 2mm.

 

[SK360]

Season technically started yesterday with our new member school… basically an autocross 101 event with how to go through tech, work the course and survive your first runs. I wasn’t sure how many instructor runs we’d get so I didn’t bother swapping tires.

Turns out we got an hour of just instructor runs and we kept times . Ended up 5th in raw on Continental DWS06+ 560tw all seasons lol. Behind an SSM C5 Z06, 2 GT3’s and a GT4 all on proper tires.

Installed the Schroth E90 quickfit harness today as points events kick off on Sunday. Looking forward to the extra support.

 

[Lindenwood]

Season technically started yesterday with our new member school… basically an autocross 101 event with how to go through tech, work the course and survive your first runs. I wasn’t sure how many instructor runs we’d get so I didn’t bother swapping tires.

Turns out we got an hour of just instructor runs and we kept times . Ended up 5th in raw on Continental DWS06+ 560tw all seasons lol. Behind an SSM C5 Z06, 2 GT3’s and a GT4 all on proper tires.

Installed the Schroth E90 quickfit harness today as points events kick off on Sunday. Looking forward to the extra support.

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Ah bummer on the bad tires! Still, now they won’t expect much next time .

 

[SK360]

Ah bummer on the bad tires! Still, now they won’t expect much next time .

Haha I’ve been trading FTDs with those 4 guys for years. They know what’s coming

 

[The Other Dan]

Saw that SCCA posted run groups/days for Nats. Does this mean Teslas could get screwed and not be allowed to run? Or is it more to see class sizes and determine later on?

 

[gearchruncher]

Saw that SCCA posted run groups/days for Nats. Does this mean Teslas could get screwed and not be allowed to run? Or is it more to see class sizes and determine later on?

EVX is listed at the bottom as TBD post Spring Nationals. I assume they are trying to see how many people are likely to show.

 

[GAGT]

Saw that SCCA posted run groups/days for Nats. Does this mean Teslas could get screwed and not be allowed to run? Or is it more to see class sizes and determine later on?

I believe its for logistics. Those classes could blow up and be heavily attended or they could be flops. So they want to be able to balance everything once they have a better idea of possible attendance. But this is total speculation

edit: Also all of those are non jacket classes so doesn't matter as much.

 

[SK360]

The trend of destroying the inside edge of street tires continues for my car. These are 560tw all seasons with less than 8,000 miles on them. My alignment guy blames it on camber but I’m really struggling to believe it would be this localized with -2.8°

 

[Lindenwood]

What is your toe?

If your tires were truly tracking straight, you’d need like 20 degrees of camber and 100+psi tire pressure to wear that narrow of a band along the edge.

(Legitimately that narrow of tread width be like 5 square inches of tread on the the ground at a given time requiring about 200 psi to hold up the 1000lb that sits at each corner).

Dumb question: the tires aren’t shaving on the front knuckle, right?

 

[SK360]

What is your toe?

If your tires were truly tracking straight, you’d need like 20 degrees of camber and 100+psi tire pressure to wear that narrow of a band along the edge.

(Legitimately that narrow of tread width be like 5 square inches of tread on the the ground at a given time requiring about 200 psi to hold up the 1000lb that sits at each corner).

Dumb question: the tires aren’t shaving on the front knuckle, right?

Right rear

Left rear

Left front

Not rubbing anything

 

[Lindenwood]

Wowzers.

1) Is it possible there is some worn out front bushing(s) allowing extra deflection under power / braking that causes excessive toe and thus wear?

2) Would you be willing to experiment with 0 toe? I run 0 toe daily and have twice as many miles with pretty even wear that is only slightly sloped to the inside (I expect the inside 1/8 or 1/4 of the tread will be bare at 25k miles or so). Normally 1mm / 0.1 degree of toe wouldn’t be this significant, but maybe the wear is exacerbated by high camber?

 

[SK360]

Toe is 0’d as per the bottom current alignment, well except that one wheel. Maybe I need to slightly toe in, idk