Automatic Emergency Braking - Sometimes...maybe..it depends...etc

[Wingsy]

Boy, Tesla sure tries to cover its rear end with this feature. The owners manual states in several places that it doesn't always work. It's like "yeah we have that, sometimes".

I get phantom braking all the time. For no reason whatsoever. But yesterday, when this construction barrel appeared in the road in front of me, Autopilot rammed right into it like it wasn't even there. So the time that I really needed braking, I didn't get it.

Interstate, clear day, no one in my lane. And no need to tell me that I'm ultimately responsible for where the car goes. I know that. But still, it would have helped a lot if it could recognize a 50-gallon drum sitting squarely in the road ahead of me.

 

[Skione65]

I mean this in the nicest way......Did you not SEE it? And steer to avoid it?

Ski

 

[Az_Rael]

Sorry about that, hope the damage wasn't too bad. I am guessing plastic barrels are hard to spot for AEB right now, maybe poor radar signatures or something.

It IS frustrating to deal with phantom braking a lot then have the system not operate when you needed it.

 

[Wingsy]

I'm sure plastic barrels don't show up at all on radar. But they can easily be seen by the 3 front facing cameras!

 

[cucubits]

Maybe they need to make the construction barrels look like people... add some arms and legs.

In all seriousness, if this thing just randomly works, it's pretty bad as an advertised safety feature. I've seen some video of testing this and the 3 is shown braking hard when a dummy child is pushed out in its path from between parked cars. Can't remember where, I think youtube...

 

[Wingsy]

I mean this in the nicest way......Did you not SEE it? And steer to avoid it?

Ski

No. And No.

 

[ewoodrick]

So, this is one of the paradoxes that self driving cars and humans face. If a deer runs across the road, should you brake hard to miss it? The answer is often no. It depends upon the other cars around you. Saving a deer to severely injure a family of 4 behind you isn't the right answer.
But, in this case, the answer is easy, it's beta software and it didn't do worse than you did.

But I do question a barrel sitting in the road. Was it truly a 55 gallon drum or a construction cone. Why didn't anyone else on the road respond? How did it get the heck in the middle of the road.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Maybe they need to make the construction barrels look like people... add some arms and legs.

In all seriousness, if this thing just randomly works, it's pretty bad as an advertised safety feature. I've seen some video of testing this and the 3 is shown braking hard when a dummy child is pushed out in its path from between parked cars. Can't remember where, I think youtube...

Would it be better to hit the barrel every time or hit it 50% of the time? “Unreliable” safety features can make huge improvements to vehicle safety.

 

[cucubits]

Would it be better to hit the barrel every time or hit it 50% of the time? “Unreliable” safety features can make huge improvements to vehicle safety.

This is wrong. If you know you have a feature, you end up trusting it even when you maybe know you shouldn't. If the feature is NOT working 100% of the time, ie. missing, not available then you end up not expecting it to work at all and pay more attention to unexpected events.

This type of feature would be better not available at all until it works reliably.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

This is wrong. If you know you have a feature, you end up trusting it even when you maybe know you shouldn't. If the feature is NOT working 100% of the time, ie. missing, not available then you end up not expecting it to work at all and pay more attention to unexpected events.

This type of feature would be better not available at all until it works reliably.

This is called risk compensation, and it is probably a factor which will reduce the benefit of any given safety feature below what is expected. However, usually in such cases there is still a net safety benefit.

I think it is likely there is a higher level of driver vigilance (meaning more benefit) when the safety features operate quietly in the background and are unknown to the driver until they are needed. The more obvious the feature, the more risk compensation will occur.

 

[anticowboyism]

I've had to brake while on autopilot many times. It makes me worried that I shouldn't use it at all. I mean, if I have to pay 100% attention with my hands on the wheel and foot on the brake, maybe I should just turn of AP and drive myself.

 

[Octo]

Yeah, the Beta excuse LOL.

I used AP yesterday on the 20mph parking lot perimeter road at my workplace. Out of curiosity- I don’t use it when it would be dangerous.

It tracked the road nicely but would have plowed right through a misplaced portable sign that was a few feet into the lane had I not intervened at the very last second (I almost let it crash into the sign but did’t want to deal with fixing dents/paint on a 11 day old car).

WTF? For allegedly getting FSD in a few months, the existing AP is a ridiculous toy.

 

[cucubits]

Yeah, the Beta excuse LOL.

I used AP yesterday on the 20mph parking lot perimeter road at my workplace. Out of curiosity- I don’t use it when it would be dangerous.

It tracked the road nicely but would have plowed right through a misplaced portable sign that was a few feet into the lane had I not intervened at the very last second (I almost let it crash into the sign but did’t want to deal with fixing dents/paint on a 11 day old car).

WTF? For allegedly getting FSD in a few months, the existing AP is a ridiculous toy.

This is why it's hilarious that some people actually believe FSD is really coming in the near future.

 

[bedoig]

You guys realize everyone else's AEB doesn't work any better than Tesla's, right? It's not guaranteed to prevent or even lessen an accident.

Volvo, safest cars on the planet:

 

[Daniel in SD]

This is wrong. If you know you have a feature, you end up trusting it even when you maybe know you shouldn't. If the feature is NOT working 100% of the time, ie. missing, not available then you end up not expecting it to work at all and pay more attention to unexpected events.

This type of feature would be better not available at all until it works reliably.

I guess OPs post is really about autopilot and in that case I agree. Ironically, as autopilot gets better it could actually become less safe because people will become complacent.
AEB however is not something that anyone uses on a daily basis and I don't think it will cause complacency.

 

[Paddy3101]

From the user manual
"
Automatic Emergency Braking does not apply the brakes, or stops applying the brakes, when:
• You turn the steering wheel sharply.
• You press and release the brake pedal while Automatic Emergency Braking is applying the brakes.
• You accelerate hard while Automatic Emergency Braking is applying the brakes.
• The vehicle, motorcycle, bicycle, or pedestrian is no longer detected ahead.
"

So it look like AEB is looking for Vehicles, Motorcycles, Bicycles or Pedestrians. Other obstructions it simply doesn't care about (at the moment). So it's not just doing a 'something is in front of me' thing, it's actually working on the world model that the car is continually evaluating.

Which is probably the right thing to do at the moment, to avoid too many false positives, and hits all the 'Major' causes of serious injury. Exploded Semi Tires would be next on my 'want' list.

So yes, making traffic cones, look like miniature pedestrians would probably work quite well (Patent Pending, TM...

 

[Paddy3101]

You guys realize everyone else's AEB doesn't work any better than Tesla's, right? It's not guaranteed to prevent or even lessen an accident.

Volvo, safest cars on the planet:

Probably didn't work, because the driver was deliberately accelerating. Wouldn't expect the car to 'override' the driver in any car in this situation. (Tesla AEB is specifically disabled if the driver is accelerating hard) If the car was at a constant speed, then it probably would have worked.

 

[drtimhill]

This is wrong. If you know you have a feature, you end up trusting it even when you maybe know you shouldn't. If the feature is NOT working 100% of the time, ie. missing, not available then you end up not expecting it to work at all and pay more attention to unexpected events.

This type of feature would be better not available at all until it works reliably.

Define "reliably" ? 100% of the time? You will wait forever. "At least as good as a human" might be a better measure, and a pretty low bar given some of the driving I see most days.

Safety features in cars are rarely perfect. But if they save more lives and accidents than they cause (hopefully by a wide margin), then its kinda hard to argue against them.

 

[cucubits]

Define "reliably" ? 100% of the time? You will wait forever. "At least as good as a human" might be a better measure, and a pretty low bar given some of the driving I see most days.

Safety features in cars are rarely perfect. But if they save more lives and accidents than they cause (hopefully by a wide margin), then its kinda hard to argue against them.

I'm not against these features at all but I do consider it would help if Tesla would be more clear and transparent with communicating the limitations of the system.

One example: I've had a 2016 Mazda 6 with a simple radar cruise control and emergency collision avoidance. It would reliably, 100% of the time "see" the car in front and chime/brake when it would get too close. Also, it would reliably, 100% of the time NOT see any stationary objects or stopped cars in my lane which had already stopped by the time my car would be in range. Never crashed in anything, never expected it to do something which I knew it wouldn't. There wasn't anything like what's going on here: "will the car see that object, why didn't AP brake, etc..."

 

[superbaka]

yesterday I had Emergency Braking save me from accelerating into the car in front of me when I took my eyes off the road in traffic and hit the accelerator. I was really shocked it worked. It slammed on the brakes and kept the car stationary for a few seconds. Wouldn't let me resume driving for about 5-10 seconds. The system was beeping and notifying me E Braking In Progress.

I will not assume it will do that again, but it did save me.