TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Available vs Actual Range

Discussion in 'Model 3: Battery & Charging' started by primo, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. primo

    primo Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2019
    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    Florida
    I took delivery of my model 3 AWD about 3 weeks. Loving it so far!

    Mike-Model-3-Tesla.jpg

    I have noticed one thing. I am not overly concerned but wanted to see if this is typical.

    I do not seem to be getting the battery range that is displayed.

    For example, I drove 33 miles today so far. I started the day with a full charge at 279 miles. I now have 233 miles. So, I used 46 miles of charge to go 33 miles.

    I purposely drove the car extra easy today because that would obviously be a factor.

    That is a pretty big difference between reported available range and actual range used.

    I was wondering if this is typical. Also wondering if there is any detailed energy usage reporting that shows what features or services are using energy.

    Does autopilot use a lot more energy? Is a lot of energy used by Internet connectivity? Etc. Would be nice to be able to see.

    I don't want to seem like I am complaining or overly concerned. I would like to learn more and see if other have this same experience with battery range. Thanks!
     
  2. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2018
    Messages:
    2,996
    Location:
    San Diego
    #2 AlanSubie4Life, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
    Congrats on the new car. This is a common question here. You can look at various threads with the search feature.

    Summary:

    In the AWD, you need to see an indicated in-car trip meter usage of 230Wh/mi to get "mile-per-rated mile" rated range consumption. Yours appears to have been more like 320Wh/mi. In addition, if you left your car in the sun and you are checking it, you'll find it is probably using miles just sitting there due to cabin overheat protection (or sentry mode).

    The "rated miles" in the car are not an indicator of miles available, they are an indicator of energy available. It's up to you (mostly) how that is spent.

    Also, please note that the in-car trip meter only counts energy usage when the car is NOT in park. When driving, the meter does include accessory use like AC/heat, fan, etc. Internet connectivity is not a significant energy user.

    To maximize efficiency, leave regen set to standard, but don't use regen (use it minimally; minimize the length of the green bar below the speedometer) , and definitely don't use the brakes. If you do this, and you are on level ground traveling about 55mph, you'll see the ~230Wh/mi consumption (you can reset the trip meter on the fly to see how it changes, if you're on a straight section of road traveling a steady speed).

    If you are concerned about energy use while parked, don't use sentry mode (24 miles of rated range per day) and don't use cabin overheat protection (or park in the shade). You should expect to lose 3 miles of rated range per day due to various things the car is doing (commonly referred to here as vampire drain - you can do a search here) - it's really not possible to do better than about 2 miles per day without rather extreme measures, and those techniques may not even work consistently.
     
    • Like x 2
  3. primo

    primo Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2019
    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    Florida
    Alan,

    Thank you for the reply. It is really helpful. I searched for "vampire drain" as you suggested and see a lot of great content there too. Much appreciated!

    Sincerely.
    -Mike
     
  4. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2018
    Messages:
    2,996
    Location:
    San Diego
    #4 AlanSubie4Life, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
    No problem. This issue can be broken into two parts:

    1) What you use while driving (needs to be 230Wh/mi to meet the rated range, not including dipping into the small reserve below 0 miles).

    2) What you use while parked (to minimize you need to not use sentry mode or cabin overheat protection).

    In general, item 2, the usage while parked, is only relevant to cost, not range (since when you care about range, all you'll be doing is driving). The Model 3 AWD is rated to get 290Wh/mi by the EPA, from the wall. In reality, you are likely to see 320Wh/mi use on average in Florida. That is wall-to-wheels; it is not the same as what you see on the display. (Typically if you are seeing 240Wh/mi on the display, you'll see about 300-320Wh/mi from the wall, on average. If you do a LOT of driving, the standby losses will be lower and you might get close to the 290Wh/mi from the wall or even slightly better - assuming you are driving very efficiently of course.)

    For every day around town driving, just plug in every night, don't worry about it, and use the 320Wh/mi wall-to-wheels number I quote above for electricity bill budgeting purposes. It'll be pretty close, for Florida, assuming you drive about 10k miles per year.
     
    • Like x 1
  5. Bloomj

    Bloomj Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2019
    Messages:
    104
    Location:
    South Carolina
    @AlanSubie4Life - can you explain more about the regen? You said

    “To maximize efficiency, leave regen set to standard, but don'tuse regen (use it minimally; minimize the length of the green bar below the speedometer) , and definitely don't use the brakes.”

    What is the issue with using regen, in general? And, how does one minimize it and using the brakes and still slow down?

    Also, when in standard regen, and you let off the gas, obviously you are in regen (green bar grows,etc), but when you touch the brake pedal, how do you know when it’s regen or friction brakes or both?
     
    • Like x 1
  6. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2018
    Messages:
    2,996
    Location:
    San Diego
    #6 AlanSubie4Life, Jun 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
    Regen is inherently inefficient since it requires that you take energy out of the battery (there is loss) and then put it back into the battery (there is loss). You might have a "round-trip efficiency" of 70% (I don't know the exact number).

    So, if you get too much speed and you are not coasting to a stop (using regen), then you're going to be wasting some energy.

    A good way to "practice" is to set regen to low TEMPORARILY, and then practice making sure you don't have to touch the brake when coming up behind people at stops. Obviously in general it's not possible to do this all the time - that's why you want regen set to standard, in general - because for those inevitable times you have to stop in a non-optimal way, you recapture as much energy as possible.

    When you get the hang of the feel of "coasting", then you can drive that way, if you want to maximize your efficiency. It's obviously personal preference, and not the fastest or the most fun way to get from point A to point B.

    Also, on hills, regen can be inevitable (it will result in an efficiency hit - so in hilly areas it's hard to do as well for efficiency), but you still want to do it, rather than using the brakes. Again, setting regen to standard will ensure this happens to the maximum extent possible.

    Another thing to keep in mind is the 5-0mph (where regen drops out entirely) doesn't really matter. Kinetic energy is proportional to the square of velocity. So if you coast from 60-5 mph, and then use the friction brakes for the 5-0mph, you've used 99.3% of the energy usefully, and only ~0.7% is wasted due to friction braking. Not a big deal. For regen and coasting, you want to make sure you're doing it when you're going fast (and you mostly want to be coasting!); what happens below 5mph really doesn't matter.

    The brake pedal is always the friction brakes. There is no "blended" braking in Teslas. The brake pedal is entirely friction brakes; it does not produce additional regen either. Maximum regen is obtained by releasing the accelerator completely in standard regen mode. If you need additional stopping power you must use the friction brakes.
     
    • Informative x 1
    • Like x 1
  7. Bloomj

    Bloomj Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2019
    Messages:
    104
    Location:
    South Carolina
    So if I understand correctly you’re saying I want to coast to a stop instead of allowing regen to occur as a general rule. I’ll have to think about that...it’s obvious to me that coasting uses zero energy but regen should be filling the battery with some amount (I do realize it is nowhere close to 1:1). At the same time I think what you’re saying is don’t spend the energy getting to a speed which is fast enough to require you to brake at all using regen or friction, correct? Example: traveling 1 mile on a flat road - accelerate to 40mph in a reasonable amount of time, hold it at 40 until close to the end, then let off and allow regen to bring you to a stop vs getting up to 40 in the same amount of time and then easing off the accelerator just enough to coast (no regen) and allow the car to roll to a stop at the end of the mile. In that case #2 uses less energy because you don’t require the car to maintain that 40mph speed, it’s a triangle instead of a trapezoidal move, but seems to me it is the staying at speed, not the regen that is responsible for the “wasted” energy, no?

    For the brake pedal question- when I’ve used the brake at speed (by accident getting used to one pedal driving or emergency stopping), I’m pretty sure the green bar shows up fairly long. Wouldn’t that mean that there is some regen along with the friction braking?
     
  8. jjrandorin

    jjrandorin Another BMW convert

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,380
    Location:
    San Diego
    My suggestion would be to not over think it, but in general you do NOT want to drive by "speeding up, then slowing down". The goal would be to drive in such a manner that you are driving along at your desired speed, holding somewhat constant speed (with the regen bard neither showing too much black from acceleration, or too much green from regen).

    Some people seem to think that because regen puts energy back in the battery, its ok to drive around on the freeway, and speeding up to the car in front of you, engaging full regen, speeding around that car up to the next one, using regen, etc.

    Just because its more efficient than friction brakes, that doesnt mean its efficient, is I believe is @AlanSubie4Life 's point.

    I
     
  9. derotam

    derotam Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2018
    Messages:
    454
    Location:
    Oak Hill, VA
    I think this is getting made way too complicated...

    How do you drive efficiently in an ICE car? You don't accelerate fast, you watch traffic ahead so that you can let off the gas to coast as much as possible until you have to use the brakes.

    In an electric with regen it's the same thing. you don't accelerate fast and you watch traffic/situation ahead so that you stop accelerating(coast, no green bar no black bar) as far ahead of time as possible. the DIFFERENCE is that as you need to slow down more than what coasting allows for, instead of using the brakes like an ICE car, you keep lifting off the accelerator to allow the minimum amount of regen that will stop you when you need to stop.

    Staying at speed until the last moment and then using max regen will not recapture more energy than if you start slowing down earlier(coasting) and THEN start to use regen.
     
    • Helpful x 1
    • Informative x 1
    • Like x 1
  10. jjrandorin

    jjrandorin Another BMW convert

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2018
    Messages:
    1,380
    Location:
    San Diego
    This is a good point. The term "coasting" does feel appropriate, but with one caveat. "Coasting" in an ICE car (internal combustion engine, or gas powered for anyone not used to the acronyms used here), involves removing your foot from the accelerator pedal. "Coasting" in an EV does NOT involve removing your foot from the accelerator pedal. @derotam calls this out in the above post but I think its an important distinction if one is not used to driving an EV.

    When you "coast" in a tesla, you are still pressing the accelerator. The "practice" part comes in, in learning how to modulate the accelerator pedal so that you are neither braking, or accelerating, effeciently if that is what one is aiming for. The act of coasting to be efficient or get the best "mileage" is similar between ICE and EVs, but the application of that coasting is different.

    In an ICE car, braking is just braking. In a EV with regen, you can capture some of that energy loss back as energy, but its not as good as not having to expend that energy in the first place. With that said, too much concentration on "things that are different in an EV" isnt healthy in my opinion, at least not at the beginning of ownership, when most people tend to do this. At the end of the day its "a car" and one should just focus on driving it comfortably in the beginning.

    Once a person gets used to "just driving it" then if desired, one can dig into trying to be more efficient, etc (again if desired). Focusing on all that up front (" i need to coast, I shouldnt brake, I should do xXX or YYY") takes something that we all are likely very comfortable with (driving) and making it like one is a novice driver again (along with all the uncertainty that comes with a "new" driver).

    Its not complicated as @derotam said, its just the difference in how you apply it.
     
    • Helpful x 1
    • Like x 1
  11. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2018
    Messages:
    2,996
    Location:
    San Diego
    As I said, maximum regen is achieved when you fully release the accelerator. So with your foot on the brake, you’ll have maximum regen and a long bar because you are not pushing the accelerator - not because you are pushing the brake. (It does take a second to ramp up to full regen after releasing the accelerator.). In fact, usually you’ll see the regen bar get *smaller* as you press the brake, simply because regen usually is lower at lower speeds (since they try not to increase deceleration due to regen at lower speed - if regen power were held constant that is what would happen since P = m * a * v).
     
  12. Bloomj

    Bloomj Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2019
    Messages:
    104
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Good discussion. I’m with you all now, I was just trying to make sure I wasn’t missing some important details. Today I’ve turned regen to low to make it easier to find the coast in between motoring and regen. I am used to some light “hypermiling” in my last car just to keep from producing so much brake dust (chevy ss). The Brembos worked great but I didn’t like the ridiculous amount of dusting so when I could I just coasted to slow/stop. In here it’s better but modulation of the accelerator (regen braking) is quite a sensitive position in standard mode.
     
  13. AlanSubie4Life

    AlanSubie4Life Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2018
    Messages:
    2,996
    Location:
    San Diego
    As I said, I wouldn’t recommend this except for very briefly. Even in low regen there is actually significant regen...so even there there is room to optimize by figuring out the “feel” of coasting. The car coasts really well!

    But it does make sense to go back to standard regen ASAP after getting the basic feel.

    It’s all about careful smooth modulation of the accelerator...and anticipating traffic in front, just like in a normal ICE vehicle when driving efficiently as others have said.
     
    • Like x 1
  14. darth_vad3r

    darth_vad3r Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    1,070
    Location:
    Canada
    I tried coasting in neutral today just to see what it’s like and it is ridiculous. It retains speed for soooo long.
     
    • Like x 2
  15. Bloomj

    Bloomj Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2019
    Messages:
    104
    Location:
    South Carolina
    I tried that but couldn’t get it to neutral.
     
  16. darth_vad3r

    darth_vad3r Active Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2019
    Messages:
    1,070
    Location:
    Canada
    Hold the stalk to the first half-stop towards neutral for about one second to shift to neutral.
     
  17. Bloomj

    Bloomj Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2019
    Messages:
    104
    Location:
    South Carolina

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC