Battery swap?

[Michelle_eriw]

When I first read about the Model S way back in 2012 or so, I seem to recall that Tesla was going to offer the option of pulling into a Tesla service station and having them swap batteries, as a speedier alternative to recharging.

Am I imagining this, or was this something actually announced?

 

[Daniel in SD]

When I first read about the Model S way back in 2012 or so, I seem to recall that Tesla was going to offer the option of pulling into a Tesla service station and having them swap batteries, as a speedier alternative to recharging.

Am I imagining this, or was this something actually announced?

It happened. The station was actually built and used a few times. It turned out not to be a practical idea. Model 3 and Y do not have fast swappable batteries.
Battery Swap Event

 

[Michelle_eriw]

It happened. The station was actually built and used a few times. It turned out not to be a practical idea. Model 3 and Y do not have fast swappable batteries.
Battery Swap Event

Thanks. So my memory is not faulty. Whew!.
Too bad it didn't work out; that would be a great selling point now.
However, in that video and at least one other, he said that supercharging would be free forever. *sigh*

 

[smatthew]

Thanks. So my memory is not faulty. Whew!.
Too bad it didn't work out; that would be a great selling point now.
However, in that video and at least one other, he said that supercharging would be free forever. *sigh*

And for people who bought their car in that era, it is! I don't think he said it would be free forever for every car they ever manufacture in the future.....

 

[jjrandorin]

Thanks. So my memory is not faulty. Whew!.
Too bad it didn't work out; that would be a great selling point now.
However, in that video and at least one other, he said that supercharging would be free forever. *sigh*

I disagree that it would be a great selling point. Anyone with a propane gas grill that has ever gone down to one of those "exchange" stations knows that what you get back is some "kind of beat up" tank, that replaces your likely meticulously cared for one.

Why in the wold would someone want to exchange a 15k battery in their car that they theoretically cared for, etc, with one that has some indeterminate amount of miles and care on it? It would be a nightmare on teslas end, even more than it is now, with people complaining that "my new battery shows 4 miles less on my scan my tesla data than my old one!!!!!".

Its an idea that sounds ok on the surface until one thinks about what it would actually be like in practice.

Having the batteries designed to be fast swappable would be beneficial to owners, if only because they could BUY a new battery 7 years down the road and have it put in... but fast swapping them for someone elses random battery? no thanks

 

[Michelle_eriw]

And for people who bought their car in that era, it is! I don't think he said it would be free forever for every car they ever manufacture in the future.....

He said that supercharging would be free forever; he did not qualify that in any way. When I first read about it, I wondered how they could keep doing it forever; it did not seem economically sustainable.

It did not surprise me when, and I understand why, they had to change to a pay model; either that, or raise the price of the cars significantly. And I like the way they made the change, both with grandfathering existing owners, and by announcing it in advance.

I just wish that Tesla would have been able to keep that program is all.

 

[Michelle_eriw]

I disagree that it would be a great selling point. Anyone with a propane gas grill that has ever gone down to one of those "exchange" stations knows that what you get back is some "kind of beat up" tank, that replaces your likely meticulously cared for one.

Why in the wold would someone want to exchange a 15k battery in their car that they theoretically cared for, etc, with one that has some indeterminate amount of miles and care on it? It would be a nightmare on teslas end, even more than it is now, with people complaining that "my new battery shows 4 miles less on my scan my tesla data than my old one!!!!!".

Its an idea that sounds ok on the surface until one thinks about what it would actually be like in practice.

Having the batteries designed to be fast swappable would be beneficial to owners, if only because they could BUY a new battery 7 years down the road and have it put in... but fast swapping them for someone elses random battery? no thanks

I would think that Tesla would take that into account, and test batteries before recharging them to be swapped again. And it's not like swapping propane tanks; unless I'm completely mistaken, you don't have the option of refilling them yourself.

With the battery swap option, and driver could choose to spend the time to recharge the battery, or to swap it in less than two minutes, and be back on the road. Depending on the relative costs, I would opt for the swap.

 

[jjrandorin]

I would think that Tesla would take that into account, and test batteries before recharging them to be swapped again. And it's not like swapping propane tanks; unless I'm completely mistaken, you don't have the option of refilling them yourself.

With the battery swap option, and driver could choose to spend the time to recharge the battery, or to swap it in less than two minutes, and be back on the road. Depending on the relative costs, I would opt for the swap.

Not sure I follow this line of reasoning of the bolded statement, because you absolutely have the "option of refilling it yourself (your own battery) either at home, or at one of the superchargers... just like one has the option of taking their propane tank somewhere to be filled, or exchanging it.

You might be ok with swapping batteries like that, but it certainly isnt a sustainable business model because you would likely be in the minority. Its probably more like 5-10 minutes theoretical to swap it, and 10-20 minutes filling up enough to get to the next supercharger. Save 10 minutes and in exchange get some random "no idea how many cycles on it" battery.

A few would choose this, but not many.

 

[Michelle_eriw]

Not sure I follow this line of reasoning of the bolded statement, because you absolutely have the "option of refilling it yourself (your own battery) either at home, or at one of the superchargers... just like one has the option of taking their propane tank somewhere to be filled, or exchanging it.

You might be ok with swapping batteries like that, but it certainly isnt a sustainable business model because you would likely be in the minority. Its probably more like 5-10 minutes theoretical to swap it, and 10-20 minutes filling up enough to get to the next supercharger. Save 10 minutes and in exchange get some random "no idea how many cycles on it" battery.

A few would choose this, but not many.

You don't have the option of refilling propane tanks yourself; I have never seen anyplace that will refill a tank for you. Therefore, exchanging them is the only way to do it.

In the video, two Teslas had their batteries swapped in less than five minutes combined. That included the time for the first to be driven off the platform and the second to be driven on.

According to Tesla's online routing page, to drive from here to Gatlinburg, TN and back (750 miles) requires five stops at Superchargers totally 160 minutes (2 hours 20 minutes), which includes a 30-minute detour to reach one of the chargers. There would be one 55 minute charge, one 45 minute, one 30 minute, one 20 minute, and one 10 minute.

If there were a pace to swap batteries, that would be one battery swap and one (maybe two) recharges.

 

[jjrandorin]

I no longer have a propane gas grill, but when I did, I took my tank to a place that sold propane, and they filled it up for me (my tank) and returned it to me (my tank) so exchanging them is not the only way to do it. It was also much cheaper to have my own tank refilled rather than exchanging it.

Off topic somewhat, but exchanging it is not the only way to do it.

As for the battery swap idea, as I said I believe there is a reason they killed it, and I dont think very many would take advantage of it if it existed. Way more headache for tesla than simply putting in more superchargers.

 

[Daniel in SD]

You don't have the option of refilling propane tanks yourself; I have never seen anyplace that will refill a tank for you. Therefore, exchanging them is the only way to do it.

It is true that propane sellers do not let you fill tanks yourself butI get tanks filled all the time, many gas stations do it and it's cheaper than the exchange. Fun fact about the exchanges is that they only give you 15lbs of propane in a 20lb tank. I can get my 30lb tank filled from empty for $20.

Depending on the relative costs, I would opt for the swap.

This is the main issue. Far more complex than a supercharger and they never managed to fully automate it.

 

[Michelle_eriw]

I no longer have a propane gas grill, but when I did, I took my tank to a place that sold propane, and they filled it up for me (my tank) and returned it to me (my tank) so exchanging them is not the only way to do it. It was also much cheaper to have my own tank refilled rather than exchanging it.

Off topic somewhat, but exchanging it is not the only way to do it.

As for the battery swap idea, as I said I believe there is a reason they killed it, and I dont think very many would take advantage of it if it existed. Way more headache for tesla than simply putting in more superchargers.

Oh, I agree, My point is that if they could do it, it would be a great selling point. I am NOT saying that they should do it.

(Emphasis added for the benefit of those who lack reading comprehension, not for you.)

 

[camalaio]

The biggest problem with this would've been guaranteeing getting your own battery back.

You'd want to reduce battery stock on site for various reasons (storage costs, safety, etc.). An easy way to do this is to just rotate packs between cars, and claim that you don't own the battery but partake in a battery share program. This wouldn't be novel and is actually how early EVs worked, and still works in some countries I believe. But this wasn't how Tesla sold the Model S in North America.

So they need stock, but perhaps they still borrow your battery to someone else so they don't need as much stock. But this isn't possible either, because you can't guarantee your battery is returned by the time you return with someone else's.

So in the end, they need a massive stockpile of battery packs at these locations to borrow out. They also still need the fast charging infrastructure for these (so they can continue to rapidly swap them even during peak demand), and need to be able to charge them out-of-vehicle, which isn't something they have readily available. For S/X packs that means they'd have to hook up external liquid cooling as well. It gets terribly complex.

At the end of the day, why go to all that when they're short on battery production anyways (and still are to this day)? Put them in cars, so they can make more sales. Much higher ROI.

You don't have the option of refilling propane tanks yourself; I have never seen anyplace that will refill a tank for you. Therefore, exchanging them is the only way to do it.

Wait what? This must be a local thing. I just got my tank refilled like a month ago, and they don't even do swaps at that station I believe.

 

[jjrandorin]

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Wait what? This must be a local thing. I just got my tank refilled like a month ago, and they don't even do swaps at that station I believe.

I was thinking about that (the propane tank thing, not the battery swap) and realized that it is entirely possible that where @Michelle_eriw is, they may not allow filling propane tanks for some reason, while where I am they do.

States have different rules on all sorts of stuff like this. I am a Southern California native... the first time I went to Oregon on a business trip, i pulled up to a gas station in my rental car intending to fill it up before returning it, so as to not be hit by the excessive gas charges rental car companies charge for doing that.

When I got to the station, this guy came sprinting out, and was motioning like he was going to fill my car for me. Gas stations in Southern California have been self serve for decades (you can get assistance normally with a disabled placard if thats something you have). Normally, when someone runs up to your car in So. Cal to try to fill it for you, it means they are about to ask / beg for money for performing this "service" for you.

Anyway, this guy runs up and says "you cant pump your own gas". I was like "WTF are you talking about, of course I can pump my own gas." He said "no, you cant do that, you dont know how", I was like "Huh????? I been pumping gas since before I could drive, and I am in my late 40s (at the time)"

He then looked at me and said "You arent from around here, are you?" I said "No, but WTF does that have to do with anything??" he said "its not legal to pump your own gas here"... I was like.... huh? (calming down quickly).

I think some laws have changed in Oregon but I believe there are still places there that dont allow you to pump your own gas.... Someone from there would have to confirm, though. All that to say, not out of the realm of possibility that propane laws are different here vs where @Michelle_eriw is.

 

[smatthew]

Yeah, the original plan for battery swaps was that you picked up your own battery on the way back....

 

[camalaio]

I was thinking about that (the propane tank thing, not the battery swap) and realized that it is entirely possible that where @Michelle_eriw is, they may not allow filling propane tanks for some reason, while where I am they do.

States have different rules on all sorts of stuff like this. I am a Southern California native... the first time I went to Oregon on a business trip, i pulled up to a gas station in my rental car intending to fill it up before returning it, so as to not be hit by the excessive gas charges rental car companies charge for doing that.

When I got to the station, this guy came sprinting out, and was motioning like he was going to fill my car for me. Gas stations in Southern California have been self serve for decades (you can get assistance normally with a disabled placard if thats something you have). Normally, when someone runs up to your car in So. Cal to try to fill it for you, it means they are about to ask / beg for money for performing this "service" for you.

Anyway, this guy runs up and says "you cant pump your own gas". I was like "WTF are you talking about, of course I can pump my own gas." He said "no, you cant do that, you dont know how", I was like "Huh????? I been pumping gas since before I could drive, and I am in my late 40s (at the time)"

He then looked at me and said "You arent from around here, are you?" I said "No, but WTF does that have to do with anything??" he said "its not legal to pump your own gas here"... I was like.... huh? (calming down quickly).

I think some laws have changed in Oregon but I believe there are still places there that dont allow you to pump your own gas.... Someone from there would have to confirm, though. All that to say, not out of the realm of possibility that propane laws are different here vs where @Michelle_eriw is.

I had a very similar experience in Oregon (not an area "outsiders" or tourists would frequent, was a work thing), except the worker didn't ever explain why he had to do it. Probably the first person he's ever seen try to fill the car themselves. I was very confused (he seemed even more confused) but I remembered reading about this and it finally clicked, and got into my car with a lot of embarrassment. I think it was viewed as impatience, seeing as most people had to wait a minute or two for someone to start fuelling their car.

Only reason I read it was because I was reading up on typical gas station procedure in various places I was going (it's been prepay my whole driving life here, but I know that's not the case everywhere and I genuinely couldn't remember how it works without prepay). Yeah, you can spot the mild anxiety from a mile away on me

More on topic, this is the concept I was referring to with the idea of not owning the battery: To purchase or lease an electric car battery? - Easy Electric Life

Seems to still be a thing in the EU? So battery swapping could still work there with some mild changes to the terms, though not for Tesla specifically of course.

 

[Michelle_eriw]

Someone from there would have to confirm, though. All that to say, not out of the realm of possibility that propane laws are different here vs where @Michelle_eriw is.

I don't know whether it's legal or not. It's just that i have never seen it.

 

[smatthew]

Wait what? This must be a local thing. I just got my tank refilled like a month ago, and they don't even do swaps at that station I believe.

Depends on where you go. For 20lb tanks, the propane companies have factories where they take in the old tank, scrape off the label, re-paint it, re-fill it, and put a new label on it. All automated. The only downside is they usually only put 15lbs in a 20lb tank. The upside is you can swap a 11 1/2 year old cylinder - which is about to expire - and get a much newer one.

Some gas stations, and most RV places have an actually big propane tank and pump, and will refill any size propane tank. We're most used to those 20lb DOT bar-b-q tanks, and some RV's use those removable DOT cylinders in sizes up to 40 or 100lbs, but most big RV's have ASME permanently installed tanks that range in capacity to over 100lbs. Heck, some RVers use both types of tanks, since you can actually get 40lb DOT tanks delivered to your RV space in some areas instead of leaving to re-fuel. Since you can't swap an ASME tank, lots of RVers have to find places with a propane pump.

But, most places don't really love selling propane because it's often priced low to entice RVers in. The whole "since you're stuck here for 10-15 minutes while we refuel you, might as well go inside and shop" mentality.

Source: I spend my childhood pumping propane at my Father's RV store. Still love the smell.

 

[camalaio]

Depends on where you go. For 20lb tanks, the propane companies have factories where they take in the old tank, scrape off the label, re-paint it, re-fill it, and put a new label on it. All automated. The only downside is they usually only put 15lbs in a 20lb tank. The upside is you can swap a 11 1/2 year old cylinder - which is about to expire - and get a much newer one.

Some gas stations, and most RV places have an actually big propane tank and pump, and will refill any size propane tank. We're most used to those 20lb DOT bar-b-q tanks, and some RV's use those removable DOT cylinders in sizes up to 40 or 100lbs, but most big RV's have ASME permanently installed tanks that range in capacity to over 100lbs. Heck, some RVers use both types of tanks, since you can actually get 40lb DOT tanks delivered to your RV space in some areas instead of leaving to re-fuel. Since you can't swap an ASME tank, lots of RVers have to find places with a propane pump.

But, most places don't really love selling propane because it's often priced low to entice RVers in. The whole "since you're stuck here for 10-15 minutes while we refuel you, might as well go inside and shop" mentality.

Source: I spend my childhood pumping propane at my Father's RV store. Still love the smell.

Huh. So here, some gas stations have the "pump" system I guess. They weigh your tank, fill, and give you a slip with the weight added. You go in and pay for that. In practice, they just always write "20" for the BBQ tanks and you pay while they fill it. Some other stations will have the racks of tanks set up for swaps (not necessarily the same stations that offer filling). So both are available here.

I've never heard of RV places selling propane, nor can I recall any giant propane tanks (for the pumping method) at any of the RV places I've been to. Interesting.

 

[smatthew]

Usually looks something like this: An aboveground propane tank, and a compressor for transferring to the receptacle. The tanker truck is there to refill the tank. It's just like the tank you might have at a house in the country, plus the compressor pump.
Also, more usually found at an RV parts/service location, than a RV sales places.