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Besides Superchargers (and Destination Charging) we need City Superchargers!

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by NeverFollow, Mar 14, 2017.

  1. NeverFollow

    NeverFollow Member

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    #1 NeverFollow, Mar 14, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
    When looking at the map Find Us | Tesla I noticed that there is no real easy solution
    for city dwellers for finding a plug for their EV car (mostly future Tesla M3 owners).

    - Superchargers are principally located outsides major cities.
    - Destinations chargers are mostly located in hotels or pay per hour parking lots.
    - Most apartments are kind of old and don’t have enough electrical capacity for EV charging.
    (Installing charging stations would require digging a trench under the building for a new
    power line and local transformers might also be overloaded and will have to be replaced).
    - A large majority of tenants park in the streets.
    - Also, most public chargers are only Level 2 or Chamado, which are slow for a full weekly recharge.

    There is a real need for finding a solution for city dwellers (especially future M3 owners.)

    - I think that fast City Superchargers is the only plausible solution.


    - This would provide the ability of a weekly charging like going to a gas station.

    -You should be able to pre-reserve your charging station to optimize the use
    and number of City Supercharging locations need.

    Otherwise city dwellers will continue buying ICE cars (or low range, plug-in or not, hybrids)
    and demand for new EVs will soon plateau.


    Note: I wonder if there is any real initiative in US for imposing the installation of EV plugs
    in new apartments building and office buildings?

    I dream one day finding any building providing parking with Level 2 charging (all the day or overnight)
    or local Supercharging for fast weekly charging.

    The following example in Oslo is a good model:

    Vulkan parking garage - Mathallen Oslo

     
    • Disagree x 1
  2. BerTX

    BerTX Active Member

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    I had hoped Tesla's solution to many of the issues would be this:

    1) Create a separate set of chargers called "UrbanChargers" in populated areas. Some of the existing Superchargers would become UrbanChargers.

    2) Superchargers are free and for long distance travel for all Teslas. (as has always been the policy)

    3) UrbanChargers are NOT free, for ANYONE, even classic owners.
     
    • Like x 3
  3. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    Apartment buildings do not need to retrench to install new infrastructure, there is enough electrical infrastructure. EVs charge at night when electrical useage is low.
     
  4. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    That is exactly what I suggested a long while ago, esp. before Tesla's payment scheme. And I definitely agree it must be made to eliminate any possibility of freeloaders. The chargers must be only for those willing to pay per charge.
     
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  5. mblakele

    mblakele radial cross member

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    Depends on the construction. In my area many apartments date from the mid-1970s. They have lighting near parking spots, but charging EVs would be another kettle of fish. Often parking spaces are under an open canopy away from the main buildings, with a 15-20A circuit supplying lighting for 5-10 cars. To offer serious charging capacity they'd have to upgrade each 15-20A circuit to at least 50A, and that would only deliver a charging station or two per canopy. Even so they'd have to pull new wire, and my bet is that they'd have to dig up the parking lot too. Ideally they'd combine that with resurfacing parking lots, but that might mean waiting several years.

    Charging for residents of apartments and townhouses is a serious issue. We're making some progress, but if things don't change then eventually it will limit growth of the EV market. Neighborhood fast DC chargers could be part of the solution.
     
  6. jaguar36

    jaguar36 Active Member

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    What's needed is for garages to add charging, not special "City Superchargers". You need charging where your car stays, otherwise an EV will always be horribly inconvenient.
    Once EVs become commonplace, Apartments will start offering charging as a feature, this is in fact already happening.
     
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  7. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

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    So you limit the market to what, about 50% of car owners?
    Forgive me, but I am not in the least bit worried that we don't see a nationwide infrastructure for apartments already in place.
    Plugins have just reached 1% marketshare. When we get to 10% and see no movement then I'll get concerned.

    Also, while many apartments were built in the 70s or earlier, many others are newer.
    And some, already are/have set up car chargers. Their are a score of such buildings in the Minneapolis metro area. In California it is law as I recall.
     
    • Like x 1
  8. arnis

    arnis Member

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    No. EV's must be charged at home. People, please drop the ICE way of living when you switch to EV world!
    You don't visit a place to recharge your car like you don't visit a place to recharge your phone!

    3kW power is absolutely enough for home. If you can use a vacuum cleaner or dryer or electric cookstove or kettle,
    you can charge any EV.
    The only requirement is 230V. AFAIK there are no transformers in US that only supply 110V.
    With only 3kW input (16A), assuming vehicle is at home only 50% of the day (while considering the fact that vehicles are parked 95% of the time) one can recharge 34kWh per day. This is the same as 20 minutes waiting at SC each day, 2 hours each week.

    If Tesla want's to be proactive, they could offer EVSE installation to any Tesla buyer (actually any EV buyer). So that EV buyers should never search for the installation service on their own (and be ripped off). Actually they could use the same electricians who install PowerWalls at homes.

    I'm absolutely sure that in near future to get permit for new building (apartment or whatever) construction, all parking spaces must be EV-ready (at least conduit for cable from main box). From that moment just few decades later everybody will have charging capability without any hassles.
     
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  9. NeverFollow

    NeverFollow Member

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    The installation of EVCS (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment) in Multi-Family Properties is a real daunting project.

    It’s not just like adding an extra electric plug to an existing electric installation, like in the case of a single family home.

    - In the case of a multiple unit, you need to deals with the landlord or the HOA.

    Even if those individuals are willing to listen to you, and my be to approve the installation, they have other priorities such as maintaining the property in good shape (i.e. dealing with water leaks, roofing, appliances replacement, gardening…), finding new tenants, dealing with municipality services such as electricity, gas, garbage, recycling, phone, cable TV…, or contractors for remodeling… and so on.

    - The use case of comparing charging an EV with charging a Smartphone is not applicable in many cases.

    The model of charging at home at night typically requires living in a house with a garage or a driveway.
    However, I noticed that even in separate home residential areas, many cars are parked in the streets.
    In general those houses have only one or two car garage or driveway,
    so other members of a family have to park in the street.

    A similar situation exists for small town houses, condos, or buildings
    where only one off-street car parking is provided for each unit.
    Since many tenants have a second car,
    then the second or more cars have to be parked in the street.

    In big cities, residential buildings may or not provide a garage,
    and if so may be only one assigned parking lot would be available.
    So generally most of the streets are generally packed with cars.

    - Even if you get lucky to have an assigned parking, a lot of problems need to be solved.

    Basically, some of the main issues are dealing with who is going to pay for the installation,
    the maintenance, the liability insurance (typically $ 1 million), and who will pay for the electricity.

    There is not a single answer for all of those questions, and a case by case need to be examined.

    For example, does the landlord or HOA will deal separately with each tenant making a request,
    or does the landlord will decide to assign in advance a given number of EVCS
    and then provides them as an additional paying service?

    Some buildings provide an indoor garage, however many apartments complexes
    provide reserved outdoor parking lots around each buildings,
    which make even more difficult the installation of electrical wires and charging posts .

    In many cases the building electrical installation will be able to handle only few single EVCS.
    But in the case of a large project, such as 20 to 50 charging stations,
    a new power line might be required. How this additional cost will be handled?

    In the case where a tenant will get billed directly for the electricity,
    would it be possible to get a cable from the tenant meter
    or does an additional meter will need to be installed, at an additional cost?

    - Conclusion

    The installation of EVCS for city dwellers living in multi-family properties is not easy.

    - For many building, the installation will require updating the electrical system, which will be costly.
    - Even if the installation is possible without exorbitant cost, the full process might take months…
    - Many cars are parked in the streets and wireless charging (to avoid vandalism) will not be common soon.

    For many future EV owners, home charging will not be possible
    and the model of weekly (super) charging like going to a gas station
    will be the only acceptable solution.

    Otherwise, most of the city dwellers will continue to get ICE cars
    (which make no sense since one of the purposes of EVs is to decrease cities pollution)
    or eventually will choose to get an Hydrogen fuel cell car.
    And hybrid cars don’t provide any real great advantage over ICE if you cannot plug them.

    Since the installation of home charging in large cities is a real problem,
    I really think that fast City Superchargers, with advance reservation,
    will be the only solution for recharging the growing number of EVs.
     
  10. azred

    azred Member

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    Tesla surely has a list of at least 100 challenges, all requiring financial resources. Providing supercharging for everyone without home charging is probably at the bottom of that lengthy list.
     
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  11. arnis

    arnis Member

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    Demand drives the supply. Right now, in 2017, there is not a lot of demand for home EVSE (it's not EVCS) and therefore also not a lot of supply from landlords nor companies that offer all-in-one solution.
    Trust me, all those things you listed are just worries and temporary technical difficulties.
    As an example, more than 50% of vehicles sold in Norway have a socket. No need to explain further. People in Norway also live in multi-story building and they also park their vehicles on the streets.

    There will be a day when landlords add an EVSE symbol next to the ad. And there will be a day when EVSE-less properties will be as rare as houses without water supply (AFAIK in EU soon new housing construction permits will be denied without EVSE-readiness for each parking space).

    Up until those days fighting for EVSE will be a thing. And being on the opposite side means losing in the long run. It's all about money, even for landlords.
     
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  12. ThosEM

    ThosEM Space Weatherman

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    Everyone seems to think that it is someone else's problem to make electric transportation so cheap and convenient for them that it's a no-brainer to switch. But at some point each of us needs to pitch in some effort or "we will never get there." Right now that effort is to upgrade the existing local charging infrastructure so it can be used for EV charging, which begins with carrying an extension cord and some adapters, and extends to installing an outlet of some sort within reach of your parking spot.

    One lesson I've learned is not to be bashful about demanding power wherever and whenever my car is parked. Wall power 120V is available everywhere and often there will be an accessible dryer outlet. This may not seem worth the effort, but it will usually get you to a more powerful charger, especially if you hang around overnight or longer.
     
  13. NeverFollow

    NeverFollow Member

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    I’m sure that from the 400,000+ drivers who pre-ordered a Tesla M3,
    many of them don’t have any idea about the daily charging problem they will encounter
    if they don’t have their own home charger.

    The delivery of 400,000 Tesla M3 will not happen overnight and will take several years,
    but still there will be certainly a lot of backslash from customers regarding this crucial issue.

    I agree that this is a more global problem and Tesla cannot solve it by itself.
    Governments of major cities will have to be involved in conjunction with
    other car manufacturers and electrical distributions services companies.
    But this will be a very slow process.

    The video example at the start of this thread showing in Oslo the installation of a parking lot
    with 100 L2 chargers, 2 super chargers, power pack for peak surges, and additional capability
    for V2G (Vehicle to Grid) illustrates perfectly what need to be done in any large cities
    for making the change from ICE to EV possible.

    Tesla tooks a big lead already by developing an infrastructure of a supercharging network
    in many countries all over the planet.
    But this model needs to be extended in cities with large densities of population.

    Otherwise the Hydrogen approach, which is not a good sustainable solution,
    will certainly be adopted in large metropolitan cities.

    So there will be finally two typical use cases.
    - The first will be that if you can charge at home, EV with batteries will predominate.
    - However if you cannot charge at home, then people will choose EV with Hydrogen fuel cells for convenience.

    I just think that Hydrogen is not a good approach for providing energy to small cars
    and that money should be spent in installing fast supercharging stations in cities.
     
  14. NeverFollow

    NeverFollow Member

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    I agree that providing an L1 (1.5 kw) type of plug, or basic dual phase L2 (3 kw),
    would certainly a very simple economical solution and will be enough
    if you have a short commute or if you don't use your car every day.
     
  15. azred

    azred Member

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    If a lot of the 400,000 don't realize they will be up the creek without home charging then they are seriously stupid. Not much Tesla can or should do about stupidity. I'm surprised anyone would buy an all-electric car without home charging...or without a service center nearby for that matter.
     
  16. arnis

    arnis Member

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    Actually it will be good enough for only one massive multi-story building with 100 apartments (few years later). It's normal that building have few floors of parking spaces in the basement as there is absolutely no room on the streets. Adding EVSE's to those basement levels is doable. Yes I know that this Oslo scenario is concentrated for the whole block. But 100 EVSE's can only serve 100 EV's. That's 100 cars. On average 200 people.

    I use my Leaf every day and make 33 000km annually, (20k miles) with just 3kW EVSE. I think I would be able to do it even with 2kW trickle charger (it's not the same as 1kW LVL1 in US as EU doesn't have 110V).
    110V will definitely NOT WORK for anything near 20k miles annually. Actual charge rate is not 1.5kW, It's around 1kW.
     
  17. David_Cary

    David_Cary Member

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    You know the world is a big place.

    Statements like "a large majority of tenants park on the streets" is simply not true in much of the US. Cities where that is true will probably be the first to wind down individual car ownership so then charging is not really a problem. Why have a car if you have to park on the street? Much more convenient to be picked up at your door.

    I do think work place charging makes much more sense. Sure right now night time is cheaper but flash forward 10 years and daytime may be cheaper. Infrastructure lasts a while - 50 years perhaps. I'd be planning for work place.

    With large enough batteries - you can just fill up 30-40 miles during an 8 hour shift - hint could be 120V. All you need in reserve is enough to get to supercharge out of town.....

    What overwhelms everything (in the US at least) is car ownership will decrease in older cities exactly where infrastructure is harder. Autonomous evs will go home to charge at night. Heck that is already true - Manhattan has a lower car ownership percentage than Atlanta. People in Atlanta live in SFH with garages more often. Nice how that works.

    Perhaps we should outlaw parking on the streets. If you can't afford a garage, don't have a car. When autonomous EVs are cheaper than individual car ownership of course. I challenge Manhattan to do it first - what should we say 2025?

    I would politely request OP puts a location in. The world is a very diverse place. Even the US is pretty diverse. Far more than 50% of people have easy potential charging at home. Far more than 50% of new car buyers have garages - and I am not talking about apartment dwellers.

    Look up Cary. Suburban, new - everyone has a garage. EV ownership is pretty high - 5% in my neighborhood. My world is different than your world.
     
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  18. scaesare

    scaesare Well-Known Member

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    Tesla actually has spoken to the idea of SuperChargers within city limits for apartment/condo who can't reasonably (as opposed to won't) provide their own charging.

    Somebody coined the term "MetroChargers" for these, which I rather like.

    Not sure where this is on Tesla's priority list at the moment, but it would be interesting to see what happens with this concept in light of Elon's recent comment regarding doubling the number of Superchargers this year...
     
  19. NeverFollow

    NeverFollow Member

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    Tesla MetroChargers - SuperChargers in Cities | Tesla
    Submitted by Mark K on December 1, 2013

    " The difference is in how MetroChargers are priced relative to SC's.
    - If you live farther than 50 miles away, it's free.
    - If you live closer, you buy the kWH's you use. (At about 1.5X the local power rates)."
     
  20. scaesare

    scaesare Well-Known Member

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    There ya go...

    (73's back at ya... KF6NNR)
     

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