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Blogger Claims Tesla's Battery Swap a Scam

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Johan: the case against Tesla is too long to explain here. Check this out and if you feel like it, tell me where I'm wrong.
Doubting is thinking: Whopperpedia: the Ultimate Guide to Teslagate

You spend a lot of time collecting information, but your internal biases blind you to the obvious truths. Many of your articles start with a premise and try to fit information to support that premise. You often conveniently ignore data that doesn't support your premise. You stop looking at the picture when you've collected enough to support your premise, even if there's a lot of data that contradicts it. Again, and again you repeat this pattern.

Tesla does what it has to do to collect ZEV credits. It's legal. The ZEV credit system pre-dates Tesla and if the other automakers made enough compelling zero emissions vehicles, the ZEV credits would be worthless. The actual scam is the other automakers that are too lazy to actually move the technology significantly forward and would rather let companies like Tesla take the big risks.

Further, you don't have any case that divides up the ZEV credits for the base vehicle versus the "extra" credits for battery swap. You don't have an accounting that says which ones were sold. If Tesla sold all the base credits first and only sells the "extra" credits at the end, the value of the ZEV credits may be near zero when happens. Musk would rather, in all seriousness, have the other automakers make enough ZEV vehicles such that their remaining credits are worthless. All you've established is a possible value for the credits if they were sold now. But that might not be the end accounting.

The real greenwash scam in transportation is hydrogen fuel cell personal small vehicles. You should be going after Toyota for the amount of government subsidies they are soaking up for HFCV's. Total up the amount given to the various automakers for HFCV's over the past couple of decades - we don't have even a pathway of technologies necessary to make HFCV's work out overall. But of course, ZEV was set up to deal with city center pollution, not greenhouse gas emissions or even the overall balance of pollution.
 
... if TMC is operating a ZEV scam, it came out of the US taxpayers pocket not mine! So the more US subsidy goes into one, the cheaper my replacement will be :)
I thought none of the moneys for the ZEV credits came from taxpayers, but rather came from those ICE manufacturers who can't be bothered to make and sell zero emission vehicles, and are happier to fork over funds so they can continue to profit (from oil, indirectly) in CARB states. They don't seem to feel they've been scammed.

And didn't Nissan get more ZEV credits (at least in California)? Are they scamming, too? How about Fiat? (see here)
 
I thought none of the moneys for the ZEV credits came from taxpayers, but rather came from those ICE manufacturers who can't be bothered to make and sell zero emission vehicles, and are happier to fork over funds so they can continue to profit (from oil, indirectly) in CARB states.....

We have a winner. I am not an English teacher who blogs.

I have an MBA in Finance and Operations and am CIO of a company and was previously CFO of another, smaller company. If you aren't in the industry, and really don't understand how the industry works, but know how to put together a sentence correctly, you can blog. The older I get, the more I read articles in Forbes, Fortune, The Economists, Reuters etc. that have huge factual errors or material errors or omissions in their financial analysis. Again, writers, not finance or accounting people.

The reality is that if you can get a charge in 30 minutes for free, at a point where you need to relieve yourself and maybe get a snack and a cup of coffee, you aren't going to pay for the swap.

There simply isn't demand for that type of service, despite what the government (CARB) and journalists BELIEVE the market SHOULD be.

** Disclosure. I am not 'short' TSLA. I am 'long' 1 Model S P85 among other things.
 
'that have huge factual errors or material errors or omissions in their financial analysis'

Happens to people who studied business too, including one Elon Musk with a Wharton degree.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3174266-turns-out-a-tesla-supercharger-costs-2-or-3-times-what-elon-musk-said

 
'that have huge factual errors or material errors or omissions in their financial analysis'

Happens to people who studied business too, including one Elon Musk with a Wharton degree.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3174266-turns-out-a-tesla-supercharger-costs-2-or-3-times-what-elon-musk-said


Yup, another glaring example of your miscalculations and using partial information to try to reach a pre-determined conclusion. You have a history of this.
 
The reality is that if you can get a charge in 30 minutes for free, at a point where you need to relieve yourself and maybe get a snack and a cup of coffee, you aren't going to pay for the swap.

There simply isn't demand for that type of service, despite what the government (CARB) and journalists BELIEVE the market SHOULD be.

This is the problem right here. CARB is building the rules to favor certain technologies (pack swap, hydrogen) which aren't particularly useful to the end user or the environment. But since CARB is in charge, the automakers jump through hoops.
Walter
 
The older I get, the more I read articles in Forbes, Fortune, The Economists, Reuters etc. that have huge factual errors or material errors or omissions in their financial analysis.

On a general basis I have observed that the more you know about a "thing" that been reported in general media, the more depressed you get over all the errors in what you read... :p


Discloser: I'm not an English teacher ;)
 
'that have huge factual errors or material errors or omissions in their financial analysis'

Happens to people who studied business too, including one Elon Musk with a Wharton degree.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3174266-turns-out-a-tesla-supercharger-costs-2-or-3-times-what-elon-musk-said


Most of what I read on the rare occasions I land on "Seeking Alpha" is riddled with errors, assumptions and factual holes I could drive a truck through.

You analysis includes only superchargers that are open. Your data is not including projects in process nor contractual commitments and payments for materials for future superchargers that have not yet begun construction. Did you take into account the difference in site acquisition costs in the USA vs. Europe and Asia? Did you take into account that newer superchargers are being built with more stalls (not what you reported - though some of the early ones have been added on to, so that may have escaped your analysis as well) and higher power capability?

Riddle me this. Did you take every supercharger enabled Model S and multiply that by $2000 (or even taking estimated downstream maintenance and power costs per car, say $1500) and see how much has been raised, and continues to be raised, for this capital expenditure?

It would help you you actually created hypertext links to your articles too, so I wouldn't have to copy paste to land on them.

You did get a click out of me, so you have that going for you.
 
Tesla registrations in California have been:
2012Q4: 1,113
2013Q1: 2,406
2013Q2: 2,308
2013Q3: 1,823
2013Q4: 1,793
Total: 9,443
If you are referring to any sales before 2014, CARB does not require Tesla to have a running swap station to qualify for the bonus credits back then. All Tesla had to do was demonstrate the car was capable of swapping to CARB (which Tesla was obviously able to do). Thus there is no "scam" to speak of when referring to ZEV credits before then.

Only for sales after 2014 does Tesla have to have actual swaps being performed. CARB did not make it an official policy until July 2014 with the latest updated version of the rule (which means the sales you refer to above were already in Tesla's ZEV "account" and qualified for the full credit no question) and it's unclear whether CARB starts counting for the whole 2014 year, after July, or starting 2015. Before then they were debating revisions to the swap rule but did not have a final draft yet.

We'll get an idea in October this year when the ZEV credit accounts are shown for 2014 and comparing to sales. However, up to now you have no way to know if Tesla actually scammed CARB in any way because they haven't tallied the numbers yet for 2014.
 
This is the problem right here. CARB is building the rules to favor certain technologies (pack swap, hydrogen) which aren't particularly useful to the end user or the environment. But since CARB is in charge, the automakers jump through hoops.
Walter

CARB's hydrogen infrastructure direct subsidies are the equivalent to providing free Tesla model S.
http://www.energy.ca.gov/contracts/PON-13-607_NOPA.pdf

hmmm $46m for 70 Hydrogen Hyundai bargain

To my (non-American) mind, the whole idea of providing CARB credits for vehicles that users cannot buy-out (ie lease only) is faulty, whether its EV or Hydrogen. At least most California Tesla's are owned by their drivers, CARB vehicles like the Hydrogen Hyundai or the Honda EV are lease only. (ie return to crusher)
 
I thought none of the moneys for the ZEV credits came from taxpayers, but rather came from those ICE manufacturers who can't be bothered to make and sell zero emission vehicles, and are happier to fork over funds so they can continue to profit (from oil, indirectly) in CARB states. They don't seem to feel they've been scammed.

And didn't Nissan get more ZEV credits (at least in California)? Are they scamming, too? How about Fiat? (see here)


TBH The original comment was tongue in cheek. Of course you are right in the case of the credits themselves they are simply transference of obligations between corporates. Inevitably these will inevitably be passed onto consumers. So I guess more accurately I should have said "US Car buyer", not "US Taxpayer" ;)

The way I see it is, without the regulatory system, CARB grants, transferable tax credits, federal loans, waivers and deferrals of tax liabilities, etc. etc. that Tesla have successfully secured, it is very unlikely I would be driving a Tesla. One would simply be far too expensive, so I am still grateful to the US taxpayer :)


Interestingly the article you linked to, highlighted the only supplier explicitly named in any Tesla SEC filing... Honda. They had a contract to purchase ZEV credits generated by the Roadster.

This surprised me given Honda's involvement in alternative fuels, and early entry into the hybrid market. Though this is probably a prejudice based on the fact we have no Acura's here, and most Honda's are econo-box models (I'm not sure if you can even buy a V6 Honda here anymore), not exactly the top of the list if you want to reduce CO2.

It does make you wonder if the whole ZEV scheme is a bit flawed in comparison to legislation where consumers pay progressively more for more polluting cars.

Are 9 V8 pickups and 1 BEV, better than 10 mid-sized PHEVs? The latter being the direction the UK market is heading in. (Undoubtedly our gas prices have started us off from a generally better position in this regard)

Of course Norway is this in extremis, however I think if legislation were to come in that made non EVs as comparatively expensive in the UK (let alone the US) there would be uproar!
 
CARB ZEV credits are limited to only a few companies, so far the non-hydrogen focused companies simply sell enough of their BEVs to eliminate the need to buy ZEV CARB credits from others. Ie Ford Focus EV, GM Spark EV, Fiat 500e (for Chrysler), Kia Soul EV for Kia/Hyundai, BMW i3 etc etc etc
that leaves Mercedes buying from Nissan, and Honda buying from Tesla
with a buyers market of one (Honda) and a sellers market of one (Tesla) Tesla can't afford to forecast any value for the credits, just accept them as a bonus.
Both Honda and Toyota are however burning their options with their gamble on hydrogen, Tesla could endup having a bidding war between Honda and Toyota.

Tesla's CARB ZEVs is really all about hydrogen vs electricity. Which is essentially a competition between fossil fuels vs solar as a source of fuel.
Toyota and Honda really hate EVs, it has transitioned from
being an engineering hunch 1990's
a matter of face (maintaining integrity with past statements) 2000's
is now an issue of pride 2010's

nb CARB credits are more complex than the above explanation, its a tiered system, my focus is on credits without a tailpipe
 
You analysis includes only superchargers that are open. Your data is not including projects in process nor contractual commitments and payments for materials for future superchargers that have not yet begun construction. Did you take into account the difference in site acquisition costs in the USA vs. Europe and Asia? Did you take into account that newer superchargers are being built with more stalls (not what you reported - though some of the early ones have been added on to, so that may have escaped your analysis as well) and higher power capability?

Riddle me this. Did you take every supercharger enabled Model S and multiply that by $2000 (or even taking estimated downstream maintenance and power costs per car, say $1500) and see how much has been raised, and continues to be raised, for this capital expenditure?

The net book value of Superchargers cannot include a significant portion from unfinished sites, as I explained in the comments section of the article. The numbers simply don't square. And in any case, to meet Elon's estimate of $150,000 per site, with the current net book value (already reduced by depreciation), one would need to have 860 stations rather than the 410 they hand at the end of March - so Tesla would be including an extra 450 unfinished sites! Ludicrous, when the company has stated it will finish the year around 500 total sites (i.e. an increase of about 90).

Cost per site was over $400,000 at the end of 2013, when the bulk of Superchargers were in the US. Surely the handful in Norway didn't drive the average up that much. Again, average value per site has declined even as the share of international superchargers has exploded - no evidence they are more expensive outside the US.

Higher power is meaningless for the overall cost. The hardware is virtually the same whether you use 120kW or 135kW (I don't remember if the latter also use twelve chargers per pedestal or one more). Costs for labor, land, permitting, construction and so on obviously won't change much. Pro tip: this is the kind of not-totally-certain factoid that leaves enough wiggle room for you to dismiss my entire post. (Of course, the reason it's not totally certain is that Tesla refuses to disclose anything more than the overall cost of the Supercharger network, without differentiating by site).

The current number of plugs per site is 5.5. Over time there has been either no trend or a very slight decline in plugs per site. Check the number of plugs in July 2013, when Tesla told Techcrunch that a site cost between $100,000 and $175,000, with the number of plugs in December. No meaningful difference.

Expansion of former Superchargers, likewise, is a rounding error in a 400-station network. You can count the expanded sites with the fingers of your hands (in fact they're almost all in California).

In any case, neither expansion of former Superchargers nor higher power are relevant to the cost at the end of 2013 (over $400,000 per site). If memory serves, not a single site was expanded between the time these cost estimates were made (May-July) and the end of year, and no site had started pumping 135kW by then. (Harris Ranch already had six plugs when Elon and Tesla made these statements).

I didn't calculate how much Tesla has 'raised' for this capital expenditure because the point of the article was not how much they spend, but how much they spend per site. $2,000 times 66,000 deliveries is slightly more than the net book value of the Supercharger network, and probably a bit less than they cost to build (i.e. before depreciation). My point is that with this money, following the $150,000 estimate, one could have built nearly 900 sites rather than the 410 they had at the end of last quarter. Seems there's a bulldozer-sized hole between reality and Tesla's statements.

Hey, all in good spirit. I just found it a bit ironical that somebody would mention 'huge factual errors or material errors or omissions' when talking about Tesla.
 
And in any case, to meet Elon's estimate of $150,000 per site

So for how many superchargers was that per site? Link?

I do remember that in that 2013 call that he formally announced the SuperCharger network, he was stating that each SuperCharger will have 4 ports.

Forward 2 years, and they have only 2 ports, hence they are faster.

Damn him for promising one thing and then delivering something better!
 
It's all in the article. Tesla talked about Supercharger sites, not pedestals or plugs, and did so in at least three different occasions over May-July 2013. The costs quoted were $150,000 without solar, $300,000 with solar, and (in July) between $100,000 and $175,000 (presumably without solar).

Still looking for the info on what Elon said the site size was for $150'000.

Was it for a 1-charger site, or a 5-charger site? Neither your article nor the autoblog link in there mentions the size that was promised. Kind'a irrelevant without that.
 
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Tesla simply said Superchargers, without specifying size. Of course, the $150,000 figure may have in fact referenced the hardware for a 1-plug, 90kW station in a company-owned service center, hence without land or permitting costs. (I'm kinda expecting that sort of explanation to surface).
 
I didn't calculate how much Tesla has 'raised' for this capital expenditure because the point of the article was not how much they spend, but how much they spend per site. $2,000 times 66,000 deliveries is slightly more than the net book value of the Supercharger network, and probably a bit less than they cost to build (i.e. before depreciation). My point is that with this money, following the $150,000 estimate, one could have built nearly 900 sites rather than the 410 they had at the end of last quarter. Seems there's a bulldozer-sized hole between reality and Tesla's statements.

Hey, all in good spirit. I just found it a bit ironical that somebody would mention 'huge factual errors or material errors or omissions' when talking about Tesla.

You are wasting your time. Best case scenario is you are correct and Tesla is taking a small loss on supercharger construction. The overarching goal isn't to make a profit, but to create an international charging network and jumpstart EV sales. Guess what? Tesla has already won. Have fun slowly realizing this like all of the other doubters and detractors over the years.
 
Tesla simply said Superchargers, without specifying size. Of course, the $150,000 figure may have in fact referenced the hardware for a 1-plug, 90kW station in a company-owned service center, hence without land or permitting costs. (I'm kinda expecting that sort of explanation to surface).

That would make sense. The question for an investor is if the Superchargers costs $150K more due to site acquisition, site engineering, permitting, inspections, leases etc., then for 400 SC locations that would come to $60 million. Nothing to sneeze at, but likely not enough to to shake the investors since the real prize is having a unique global network of the fastest chargers. In the big picture, $60MM isn't really all that much money - especially as a one-time capital cost that will be reflected in depreciation over many years.
 
AZC,

This is precisely what I'm talking about when I call you out as disingenuous. You ignore various factors because it doesn't suit your pre-determined story.

The net book value of Superchargers cannot include a significant portion from unfinished sites, as I explained in the comments section of the article. The numbers simply don't square. And in any case, to meet Elon's estimate of $150,000 per site, with the current net book value (already reduced by depreciation), one would need to have 860 stations rather than the 410 they hand at the end of March - so Tesla would be including an extra 450 unfinished sites! Ludicrous, when the company has stated it will finish the year around 500 total sites (i.e. an increase of about 90).

You need to add all the factors in... you can't cheat and dismiss this big one out of hand.

Cost per site was over $400,000 at the end of 2013, when the bulk of Superchargers were in the US. Surely the handful in Norway didn't drive the average up that much. Again, average value per site has declined even as the share of international superchargers has exploded - no evidence they are more expensive outside the US.

Again, this statement is disingenuous at best since you ignore the build out costs of the sites, you can then state a much higher cost per station.

The current number of plugs per site is 5.5. Over time there has been either no trend or a very slight decline in plugs per site. Check the number of plugs in July 2013, when Tesla told Techcrunch that a site cost between $100,000 and $175,000, with the number of plugs in December. No meaningful difference.

...

Expansion of former Superchargers, likewise, is a rounding error in a 400-station network. You can count the expanded sites with the fingers of your hands (in fact they're almost all in California).

Meaningless to you only because it hurts your argument. Again, ignoring another factor that exists in reality. The fact that this factor exists means your calculations are materially wrong. We can discuss how much it is wrong, but it is wrong nevertheless.

Musk's statement about Supercharger costs was made in May, 2013. The costs obviously reference U.S. stations at that time.

By the time a Supercharger station is starting construction, a significant portion of the costs are already in play. The equipment is already ordered and delivered. The number of supercharger plugs obviously affects the price. And the total project time can be as short as 3 months but more likely stretches from 6 months to a year. Tesla does not know beforehand how quickly a site can develop. Some happen right away. Others, like Greenville, SC, end up in limbo - the Superchargers equipment almost completely installed and the site was blocked from completion. As much as 80% of a Supercharger site cost is already spent before the ground is broken. The sites have gotten bigger... you can't ignore the additional costs just because it is inconvenient to your argument. The price difference between a 2 Supercharger, 4 plug site is different from a 6 Supercharger, 12 plug site. The price for some of the smaller 2 plug sites are actually quite high due to their location. Some have odd numbers, like 5, which means 3 Superchargers, 5 plugs. You have to apply a corrective factor there. You also ignore the fact that some stations have solar canopies and some have battery storage. You can't ignore those either. We also don't know how far in advance Tesla has to buy the various components or how they have to account for the deals that are part of this. For example, once a site owner signs the contract, there may be book value added right there even though the first permit hasn't been granted. We also don't know the payment arrangements - how much is contributed to book value as electricians and other labor is spent on developing the site. These are real costs that you can't ignore that go into the book value.

Let's assume that Musk's initial cost was given as a 3 Supercharger, 6 plug site that was common in 2013 as a starting base. In 2013, 4 Supercharger, 8 plugs sites are normal in the U.S.

You take the book value at the end of Q4 2013 of $25.6 million and divide against 64 open Supercharger sites. 2 of these sites have solar canopies, so the right number to even start with is 66. You don't take into account the number under construction. At the end of January, 2014, there were 87 Superchargers open. In other words, the 23 more Superchargers were in the last phases of construction. Easily 90+% of the costs of these Superchargers were already spent by the end of 2013. So 23 * 0.9 = 20.7. By the end of Q1, 2014, there were 96 open. That's an additional 9 and say 70% of those costs were already spent by the end of 2013. That's an additional 6.3. Then by the end of Q2, 2014, 125 were open. Let's say it's fair to add 50% of the costs for those 32 additional sites. That's another 16. So just with 6 months of sites under construction, we're looking at correcting the original 64 value you gave to 64 + 2 + 20.7 + 6.3 + 16 = 109. There are additional costs already incurred for sites beyond even the 6 months as some sites literally took 1 year to develop. But let's just round that 3 more. So 112. Remember, Tesla's original plan was for far more sites than what actually opened, so many more sites were under development (hence costs incurred) but the actual open stations lagged as those site selection, site owner agreements, permitting, and construction, and utility delays mounted.

The current global average of plugs per site is now 5.51 (2,419 / 439). However, in 2013 and the first half of 2014, most of the sites were full sized sites in the U.S. and Europe. Later in 2014 and now in 2015, we are diluted with a bunch of 2 plug Superchargers in France, UK, and Hong Kong/China. Most of the early sites are at least 4 plug but many more were 8 plug. Assuming most were 6 plug sites, but 2:1 ratio of 8 plug sites versus 4 plug sites, a corrective factor of about 20% is about right for the actual number of plugs per site for the Superchargers installed and under various phases of construction at the end of 2013. Therefore, 112 * 1.2 = 134.4.

Take $25.6 million and divide by 134.4 and you get $190,000 cost per site for the Superchargers in operation and under construction at the end of 2013 as it relates to book value.

Further, a number of these sites under construction are in Europe by that point in time and the costs are likely higher in Europe than in the U.S. This is before we get to odd number of plugs and other miscellaneous real world factors that need to be in the accounting. So in reference to the original $150,000 estimate in May, 2013, the average cost is higher, but not enough to all that significant.