Brexit

[neroden]

Corbyn is unelecticable... And rightly so. I speak as a Labour Party member (now ex). There are many wonderful Labour MPs from David Lammy, Keir Starmer, Yvette Cooper, Stella Creasy, Tom Watson to name a few who are potential leaders...

Creasy and Watson have a chance. The others cannot get sufficient public support. I'm not saying they're bad people, I'm saying they have no political chance.

Creasy and Watson would be attacked for all the same things Corbyn is being attacked for (mostly bogus).

 

[YoungStranger]

I'm not sure you can blame Corbyn for the anti-semitism of some of the random people in the Labour Party. It's mostly Netenyahu's fault, really. I'm not sure what you're referring to regarding "responses to acts of terrorism and Russian aggression", since IIRC he condemned those in no uncertain terms.

We are getting away from Tesla here... but Corbyn is undoubtedly anti Semitic...
It’s a trait of the Hard Left and there are several strands to it. The first is the old Jewish World Banker trope ... Capitalism is controlled by international Jewry...
The second is the Israel/ Palestine conflict and another strand is the attempt by the Left to co opt Islamist groups, particularly in the Asian communities (often in Labour held constituencies)
Corbyn notoriously was videoed complaining about 2 Jewish members of an audience who had 5e temerity to challenge him .. he raged about though they had lived “here” all their lives, they did not understand English Irony.

If this was said about any other ethnicity, he would have been made to resign...

Corbyn is not fit to be a Labour MP let alone Prime Minister...

 

[YoungStranger]

Creasy and Watson have a chance. The others cannot get sufficient public support. I'm not saying they're bad people, I'm saying they have no political chance.

Creasy and Watson would be attacked for all the same things Corbyn is being attacked for (mostly bogus).

I’d put money on Keir Starmer... perhaps the third most senior menber of the Shadow Cabinet, and has the respect of all wings ofthe Lsbour Party... also formerly the most senior Law Officer (Director of Public Prosecutions) in the land so significant brainpower and credibility..

Yvette Cooper is also a strong and experienced p9itician. The tragedy I’d that Labour has seriös talent but they have been exiled...

 

[Singer3000]

It’s fascinating to me to see that there are highly informed people who can simultaneously take a serious interest in personal investing and also defend Jeremy Corbyn.

I always try and do my best to listen to the views of others to help challenge my own existing biases but I am really struggling with this one. The guy at his core doesn’t believe in private wealth.

If you follow the logic of his last manifesto, it implied effective expropriation of the shares of various utility companies. Policy announcements since 2017 have been even stronger, with the socialist state to effectively take a 10% economic interest in every company with more than 250 employees and with (most likely militant) union reps on every board.

Not for me to tell others that they can’t or shouldn’t support such a platform. But it does jive somewhat with the typical objectives of those wealthy enough to invest meaningful sums in individual stocks.

 

[EVNow]

It’s fascinating to me to see that there are highly informed people who can simultaneously take a serious interest in personal investing and also defend Jeremy Corbyn.

I always try and do my best to listen to the views of others to help challenge my own existing biases but I am really struggling with this one. The guy at his core doesn’t believe in private wealth.

Shouldn't be surprising at all, since some of us still don't like killing people arbitrarily. After all do people who have respect for Mahatma Gandhi know he was completely anti-industrialization (let alone private wealth).

I'll play by the current rules (investing in companies that I think are trying to help the planet) - at the same time promote politicians who I think are doing the same thing i.e. help the planet vs trying to make money killing a million brown people in Asia.

In other words, why are people who supported killing a million people in Iraq being talked about as "liberals", instead of Hitler wannabes ?

I mean just look at Venezuela. At least half the world has authoritarian regimes worse than Venezuela - where "opposition parties" aren't even allowed to exist. Yet its the one country where Trump (supported by Democrats) wants a regime change. Who really thinks this has nothing to do with Oil ?

 

[Singer3000]

Shouldn't be surprising at all, since some of us still don't like killing people arbitrarily. After all do people who have respect for Mahatma Gandhi know he was completely anti-industrialization (let alone private wealth).

I'll play by the current rules (investing in companies that I think are trying to help the planet) - at the same time promote politicians who I think are doing the same thing i.e. help the planet vs trying to make money killing a million brown people in Asia.

In other words, why are people who supported killing a million people in Iraq being talked about as "liberals", instead of Hitler wannabes ?

I mean just look at Venezuela. At least half the world has authoritarian regimes worse than Venezuela - where "opposition parties" aren't even allowed to exist. Yet its the one country where Trump (supported by Democrats) wants a regime change. Who really thinks this has nothing to do with Oil ?

And there’s Godwin... cheerio for now

 

[EVNow]

And there’s Godwin... cheerio for now

I knew someone would come back with that - but seriously, 1 Million people dead and no one who promoted the Iraq war has suffered any consequence !

 

[Buckminster]

Legal change to backstop looking less likely. Brexiteers have suggested they could back the deal with backstop change. Labour in disarray.
Extension now probable.

My update:
No deal - 15%
Hard Brexit following Article 50 extension - 5%
Teresa May deal with legal backstop change - 15%
Teresa May deal with almost no change - 50%
Norway/Soft Brexit following extension - 10%
Remain following referendum - 5%

 

[neroden]

It’s fascinating to me to see that there are highly informed people who can simultaneously take a serious interest in personal investing and also defend Jeremy Corbyn.

I always try and do my best to listen to the views of others to help challenge my own existing biases but I am really struggling with this one. The guy at his core doesn’t believe in private wealth.

If you follow the logic of his last manifesto, it implied effective expropriation of the shares of various utility companies.

That's good policy. Utility companies are private monopolies, which are consistently a *terrible* idea. I mean, seriously, read about what happened when the various elected "Water Boards" were privatized under Thatcher, right? Massive downgrades in service quality and hikes in prices, failure to do maintenance, the works.

Policy announcements since 2017 have been even stronger, with the socialist state to effectively take a 10% economic interest in every company with more than 250 employees and with (most likely militant) union reps on every board.

OK, so that might be over the top. Germany has union reps on every board, though, and it works.

 

[neroden]

I’d put money on Keir Starmer... perhaps the third most senior menber of the Shadow Cabinet, and has the respect of all wings ofthe Lsbour Party... also formerly the most senior Law Officer (Director of Public Prosecutions) in the land so significant brainpower and credibility..

No charisma.

Yvette Cooper is also a strong and experienced p9itician.

17% in the Labour leadership election. No chance.

Sorry, they seem like very good government officials, but I'm surprised they can even hold their local Parliamentary seats.

 

[geneclean55]

No charisma.


17% in the Labour leadership election. No chance.

Sorry, they seem like very good government officials, but I'm surprised they can even hold their local Parliamentary seats.

Charisma?
We are talking British politicians right?

 

[Singer3000]

That's good policy. Utility companies are private monopolies, which are consistently a *terrible* idea. I mean, seriously, read about what happened when the various elected "Water Boards" were privatized under Thatcher, right? Massive downgrades in service quality and hikes in prices, failure to do maintenance, the works.

So as someone that invests in stocks, you think it’d be totally acceptable for the government of a major global economy to declare 30 year old privatisations “against the public interest” and to take a majority shareholding without paying the market value? Even if that company was publicly listed? This is what’s implied by Corbyomics - renationalising the utility sector (including electricity) but without increasing the national debt.

The great thing of course is that Corbyn has been found out and is now electorally a busted flush.

 

[neroden]

So as someone that invests in stocks, you think it’d be totally acceptable for the government of a major global economy to declare 30 year old privatisations “against the public interest” and to take a majority shareholding without paying the market value?

Where's the "without paying the market value" part? You're basically just making that up, aren't you?

Atlee paid the market value.

Don't get me started on how "national debt" works; if you aren't borrowing denominated in gold or euros or someone else's currency, it's not a real thing. Money-printing is a thing -- and so is taxing rich people.

You seem to have bought into Anti-Corbyn conspiracy theories. I'm sorry to see that red-baiting is still a successful pastime in the UK. It's not working in most of the US any more.

 

[neroden]

I am now thinking that Brexit will get kicked down the road with extensions. Makes everyone happy!

Just like the EU has teetered along despite not solving any of its fundamental structural problems. I was sure it was going to collapse over the unsustainable hard money policy back in 2008... and instead it just sort of lost authority and staggered along half-violating its policies and half-not...

It's amazing how long this sort of thing can just sort of stagger along.

Make no mistake: this is very bad. When a non-functional, unsustainable system just sort of staggers along, not fixing any problems, people get mad and the system gets very unstable. When it breaks, it breaks *big-time*, like the way most European countries (and the Ottoman Empire) actually disappeared during World War I. It is notable that the countries which existed before the war and after the war, with governmental continuity, were the ones which had reformed fairly recently before the war. The stuck-in-the-muds either got broken into pieces or had revolutionary governments.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I am now thinking that Brexit will get kicked down the road with extensions. Makes everyone happy!

Just like the EU has teetered along despite not solving any of its fundamental structural problems. I was sure it was going to collapse over the unsustainable hard money policy back in 2008... and instead it just sort of lost authority and staggered along half-violating its policies and half-not...

People who think that the UK Brexit voters all voted for it for racist reasons need to understand that a lot of people simply were frustrated at the obvious deficiencies of the EU's structure.

Why does Parliament move between Brussels and Strasbourg? | News | European Parliament

How's that for an explanation?

That politely says "Because countries. We know it's a stupid waste of money, but there's no way that 2 of the 3 host countries would agree to give up their bit."

The Remain Campaign slogan should have been "We know a lot of things about the EU are bad. But it'll be worse outside, especially if the government tries to rush it and cocks up the whole process. And you know they will."

 

[Singer3000]

Where's the "without paying the market value" part? You're basically just making that up, aren't you?

Atlee paid the market value.

Don't get me started on how "national debt" works; if you aren't borrowing denominated in gold or euros or someone else's currency, it's not a real thing. Money-printing is a thing -- and so is taxing rich people.

You seem to have bought into Anti-Corbyn conspiracy theories. I'm sorry to see that red-baiting is still a successful pastime in the UK. It's not working in most of the US any more.

What a very impolite and needlessly superior response. Could it not instead be the case that as a US resident, you’ve not listened to as many interviews with John McDonnell as I have, nor absorbed as much detail of fringe meetings at Labour conference? That you compare Corbyn to Atlee shows how little you understand the tectonic shift that has taken place in the British Labour Party in the last 3 years or so.

 

[Buckminster]

Some senior remainers are coming out in support of a "no deal" rather than a bad deal. Seems well coordinated to keep EU thinking about throwing us a bone. 3 weeks to go and Corbyn is asking May about crime....

My update:
No deal - 25%
Hard Brexit following Article 50 extension - 5%
Teresa May deal with legal backstop change - 30%
Teresa May deal with almost no change - 30%
Norway/Soft Brexit following extension - 5%
Remain following referendum - 5%

 

[YoungStranger]

No one in their right minds supports a no Deal, let alone “senior Remainers”. Who are they?

Even Johnson, Mogg and that gang don’t really wan5 a No Deal... they just want a deal flat has their name not Mays..

I would disagree with your odds... No Deal is virtually impossible ... it’s basically means not governing a country...
According to the Telegraph today, Mays Deal is unlikely to pass... but the Tories have a survival instinct. If it doesn’t, delay is inevitable...I would put the odds on a second referendum much higher... not because I want a chance to Remain (although I do)but because it will be the only way out of this mess... although ironically the biggest problem is the lack of a credible Brexit deal...

With the jobs being cut, and people realising they will lose their free health insurance in Europe and visa free travel Remain must be favourite...

 

[YoungStranger]

No charisma.


17% in the Labour leadership election. No chance.

Sorry, they seem like very good government officials, but I'm surprised they can even hold their local Parliamentary seats.

Therein lies the difference between a Presidential system and a Parliamentary system... charisma is not needed as there is no direct vote by Public. May is a perfect example of this...
Cooper has shown her true colours in Parliament after the mainstream candidates were steam rollered by an effective social media campaign in the election for Labour Keader. Being married to Gordon Browns right hand man didn’t help her anti establishment credentials...
Starmer is a cool operator playing a long game ... although he may have sacrificed his personal career in an attempt to hold together Party and Country.

 

[Buckminster]

No one in their right minds supports a no Deal, let alone “senior Remainers”. Who are they?

Even Johnson, Mogg and that gang don’t really wan5 a No Deal... they just want a deal flat has their name not Mays..

I would disagree with your odds... No Deal is virtually impossible ... it’s basically means not governing a country...
According to the Telegraph today, Mays Deal is unlikely to pass... but the Tories have a survival instinct. If it doesn’t, delay is inevitable...I would put the odds on a second referendum much higher... not because I want a chance to Remain (although I do)but because it will be the only way out of this mess... although ironically the biggest problem is the lack of a credible Brexit deal...

With the jobs being cut, and people realising they will lose their free health insurance in Europe and visa free travel Remain must be favourite...

Sorry, "supported" was not the best word to use. I was referring to Mark Carney - "UK now better prepared for No deal". Also, Ex-MI6 chief says no-deal Brexit far better than Theresa May's offering
I hope you are right regarding no deal chances. MPs don't have to vote for a no deal for it to happen....
Brexiteer public seem to be gathering strength if anything. Cox talking about illegalities and being less than positive about the EU negotiators is only stoking the fire.