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My understanding is that Scottish independence at this point would entirely be about being able to independently request re-admission to the EU, separate from England?

So, that could be very pragmatic, doing it to maintain EU ties.
Export Statistics Scotland - Publication
Only 18% of Scottish exports go to EU. How would they truck their Langoustines to France overnight without entering hostile territory?
UK integration is much deeper than UK / EU integration. Also, they would have to leave UK first before requesting permission to join EU. That could take years as they would have to prove currency stability etc.
UK heavily subsidises Scotland to the point where they their people have greater benefits than in England.
 
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Latest poll shows the Corbyn problem:
10196876-6738541-image-a-20_1550969555981.jpg

Independent group doing well considering they are not even a party!
Parliament vote delayed to no later than 12th March. Something like the 4th time this or the previous vote has been delayed!
My update:
No deal - 25%
Hard Brexit following Article 50 extension - 5%
Teresa May deal with legal backstop change - 35%
Teresa May deal with almost no change - 25%
Norway/Soft Brexit following extension - 5%
Remain following referendum - 5%
 
The EU seemed to not have learned from the past 2 years. The more they try to give us a harder deal - the more the UK want to exit. Tusk's special place in hell was the absolute worst of it. Brexiteers are getting stronger. A greater majority would vote for Conservatives now than previous. The leading remainers have left the Conservative party without any real impact. Approx 70% of the Conservative constituencies, voted leave. Lib Dems are the only party in England that would remain with 5%!
We are in greater danger of a no deal than I thought and then I read this:
Brexit could be delayed until 2021, EU sources reveal
This is like a red flag to a bull for the Brexiteers.
 
The EU seemed to not have learned from the past 2 years. The more they try to give us a harder deal - the more the UK want to exit. Tusk's special place in hell was the absolute worst of it. Brexiteers are getting stronger. A greater majority would vote for Conservatives now than previous. The leading remainers have left the Conservative party without any real impact. Approx 70% of the Conservative constituencies, voted leave. Lib Dems are the only party in England that would remain with 5%!
We are in greater danger of a no deal than I thought and then I read this:
Brexit could be delayed until 2021, EU sources reveal
This is like a red flag to a bull for the Brexiteers.
Is there a particular reason EU would ignore members like Ireland and give a good deal to UK ?

Looks to me May is delaying the vote to force Tories to vote for whatever deal she brings - with threat of either a no deal Brexit or a 2 year delay.

Interestingly, Tories polling better now, makes it easier for the MPs to vote against May's deal, and face election if needed.

But I've to say this whole thing is so weird, any deal should be voted in a referendum than in parliament. Because an actual deal is better to judge than a vague Brexit.
 
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Is there a particular reason EU would ignore members like Ireland and give a good deal to UK ?
This depends on what you think will happen. Any deal would be much better than no deal for all parties. The MPs that voted against the deal need an improvement to the deal to save face. Also, there is genuine concern that the EU would keep us in the backstop indefinitely. This is a bigger deal for MPs than the public.

Looks to me May is delaying the vote to force Tories to vote for whatever deal she brings - with threat of either a no deal Brexit or a 2 year delay.
Is that so bad?

Interestingly, Tories polling better now, makes it easier for the MPs to vote against May's deal, and face election if needed.
They are doing well mostly because the public realise we need to exit and the Tories are trying to achieve it. The MPs are in a dilemma. They would prefer to remain in the EU. They don't like the deal but the public want them to take it. They won't have a job in 4 years if they defy their voters.

But I've to say this whole thing is so weird, any deal should be voted in a referendum than in parliament. Because an actual deal is better to judge than a vague Brexit.
Letting the idiots vote got us into this. They are still idiots. We know what the public want. They want a vote and then they will vote roughly equally for every different option given to them because they will have the media and MPs telling them to. The EU insisted on an exit deal first. The UK wanted to include the trade deal from the start. That was the EUs first mistake.
 
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UK heavily subsidises Scotland to the point where they their people have greater benefits than in England.
A question - even though all - I hope- in this forum are desirous of the demise of the Petroleum Era -
Would an independent Scotland not also consider its birthright to include a geographic share of the North Sea oil and gas fields? And if that is correct, what fraction would be Scotland’s, as opposed to England’s? I’m certain this topic has been well-discussed.
 
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A question - even though all - I hope- in this forum are desirous of the demise of the Petroleum Era -
Would an independent Scotland not also consider its birthright to include a geographic share of the North Sea oil and gas fields? And if that is correct, what fraction would be Scotland’s, as opposed to England’s? I’m certain this topic has been well-discussed.

About 90% of UK's North Sea Oil would be Scotland's by normal allocation of territorial waters.

Then the question becomes what percentage of UK's Debt belongs to Scotland in a divorce.
 
Will it have any impact on the outcome or is it just posturing ?

UK's Labour will back public Brexit vote if parliament rejects its exit plan -Brexit spokesman | Reuters

Britain’s opposition Labour will support a second referendum on Brexit if parliament rejects the party’s alternative plan for leaving the bloc, its Brexit spokesman Keir Starmer said on Monday.

Parliament is due to debate and vote on Wednesday on the next steps in Brexit and Labour has said it put forward an amendment calling on the government to adopt its Brexit proposals, which include a permanent customs union.
 
About 90% of UK's North Sea Oil would be Scotland's by normal allocation of territorial waters.

Then the question becomes what percentage of UK's Debt belongs to Scotland in a divorce.

Re: North Sea oil and gas. 90% of future revenues and 90% of decommissioning costs would be the r.UK's opening offer I imagine. If you thought Brexit was difficult to execute, you can't begin to imagine what Scottish Independence would look like.

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

"UK taxpayers are facing a £24bn bill for decommissioning oil and gas fields in the North Sea — threatening to wipe out remaining tax revenues from an industry that has been among the Treasury’s most reliable cash cows for the past four decades."
 
It has been said for a while that if Labour made a second referendum official party policy, at least 40 Labour MPs would defy the party whip, as they are in heavily Leave voting constituencies. Therefore the parliamentary mathematics don't add up for a second ref, without the government also sponsoring it.

As a barely in the closet Brexiteer, Corbyn knows this full well. He is trying to balance the opposing wings of his party and sees backing a vote now as a low risk move because it has almost no chance of succeeding, while potentially somewhat placating the metropolitan / pro-EU wing of the party that are in open mutiny for various reasons. No doubt he is scared witless that the newly launched and still leaderless TIG-not-yet-a-party-Party are already polling in the teens.

There's a reading of Corbyn's move that actually says it improves the chances of May's deal (or something very similar) passing Parliament and the UK leaving more or less on time. If there's a parliamentary vote for a second referendum and it's soundly thrashed, you can rule that out. You are basically at the stage of being able to rule out a "No Deal" exit on 29th March as well. Which only leaves the deal on the table, with whatever face saving tweaks to the Northern Irish Backstop can be stitched together to get it through Parliament second time along.

The danger of course, is that the Commission doesn't agree the necessary tweaks for it to pass Parliament. If that happened, then I think the most likely outcome is an extension of the withdrawal date and the fall of the government, to be replaced with a far less amenable one from the perspective of Commission negotiators.
 
Big changes today. Labour look to be shooting themselves in the foot as per usual. More importantly, May will give the MPs a vote on:
  1. Her deal (now very unlikely to get legal changes to backstop) - unlikely to go through but more chance than last
  2. No deal - no chance of getting voted through
  3. Extension - quite likely presumably
My update:
No deal - 10%
Hard Brexit following Article 50 extension - 5% (extension could lead to a Brexiteer getting in?)
Teresa May deal with legal backstop change - 20%
Teresa May deal with almost no change - 45%
Norway/Soft Brexit following extension - 10%
Remain following referendum - 10%

If the EU hand May a lifeline - something like "we acknowledge that EU cannot hold UK in Backstop permanently", MPs might save enough face to vote for her deal.
 
Latest poll shows the Corbyn problem:
Unfortunately, any other actual leader for Labour would probably have worse numbers -- certainly all the Blairite clowns who have opposed Corbyn in public have no chance.

This is a standard problem in US polling: "Generic Republican" polls better than any actual Republican and "Generic Democrat" polls better than any actual Democrat.

Try polling "without May as leader" as well, and watch Conservative support jump. :-(

I wonder if the LibDems and the Independent Group will get enough seats to push through proportional representation, which would make everything clearer. Probably not.
 
Unfortunately, any other actual leader for Labour would probably have worse numbers -- certainly all the Blairite clowns who have opposed Corbyn in public have no chance.

This is a standard problem in US polling: "Generic Republican" polls better than any actual Republican and "Generic Democrat" polls better than any actual Democrat.

Try polling "without May as leader" as well, and watch Conservative support jump. :-(

I wonder if the LibDems and the Independent Group will get enough seats to push through proportional representation, which would make everything clearer. Probably not.
The trouble with Corbyn electorally is not that he is a hard socialist. There’s a decent enough chunk of the electorate that presently find this attractive, who are too young to have seen hard socialism in action, who do not pay much tax and who have been left behind by asset price inflation.

The problem for Corbyn is that his vote share is capped (and almost certainly peaked in 2017) because he has been defined by people who should know, as a clear threat to national security. For example, an ex MI6 head has been explicit that had Corbyn been nominated for a Cabinet role by any previous government, it would have been vetoed on national security grounds. This chimes with the general public, who have taken note of his responses to acts of terrorism and Russian aggression, as well as a wholly unsatisfactory anti semetic mood that has flourished in the party under his leadership.

Add to this the very real fears under Corbyn of capital controls, “nationalisation” of private pension pots and expropriation of publicly listed companies, and it’s clear that Corbyn and his gang are absolutely the electoral problem for Labour.

My personal view is that he only did so well in 2017 because the voting public were told by polls that he was heading for a record defeat. May was so obviously ill equipped for the job and many voters were sore over: Brexit for Conservatives and the Coaltion years for Lib Dems. Corbyn was thus seen as a low risk choice for protest voters, as well as tribal moderate Labour voters. He also did the near impossible by convincing Northern Brexit voters he wanted Brexit, and London Remainers that he did not. Of Labours most vulnerable seats, 16/20 voted Brexit and if top target seats, something like 35/40 did the same. So very hard to see his path to government, UNLESS the Tory party splits in two, which is very unlikely at this point.
 
Unfortunately, any other actual leader for Labour would probably have worse numbers -- certainly all the Blairite clowns who have opposed Corbyn in public have no chance.

This is a standard problem in US polling: "Generic Republican" polls better than any actual Republican and "Generic Democrat" polls better than any actual Democrat.

Try polling "without May as leader" as well, and watch Conservative support jump. :-(

I wonder if the LibDems and the Independent Group will get enough seats to push through proportional representation, which would make everything clearer. Probably not.


Corbyn is unelecticable... And rightly so. I speak as a Labour Party member (now ex). There are many wonderful Labour MPs from David Lammy, Keir Starmer, Yvette Cooper, Stella Creasy, Tom Watson to name a few who are potential leaders... they are Not ´blairitesˋ. That is just a sneer used by the Hard Left aimed at mainstream Social Denocratic Labour MPs.
Unfortunately the Labour Leadership has been hijacked by a bunch of old Trotsyists and Communists... Corbyn has no brains.. his minders are both openly Stalinist (Milne and Murray) and his Chancellor is in his own words a Marxist convert (he is a bit cleverer than Corbyn, and silmutaneuosly plays both side... there is a profile of him in last weeks Economist).
The hard left (revolutionary communists) have struggled to fill upstairs in a pub sometimes and there is no way that Middle England (geographically and culturally) and many Working class‘ people will vote for someone who praises the economies of Cuba and Veneuzala, wants to withdraw from NATO, supports the destruction of Israel and who is also thick as two short planks (as we say in England).
They are wrecking the Left, just as the Ayn Rand types and English Nationalists have hijacked the right.

That is not to say the centre of Politics has gone away, it has just been taken for granted and ignored.
 
The problem for Corbyn is that his vote share is capped (and almost certainly peaked in 2017) because he has been defined by people who should know, as a clear threat to national security. For example, an ex MI6 head has been explicit that had Corbyn been nominated for a Cabinet role by any previous government, it would have been vetoed on national security grounds. This chimes with the general public, who have taken note of his responses to acts of terrorism and Russian aggression, as well as a wholly unsatisfactory anti semetic mood that has flourished in the party under his leadership.
You are just describing why the military industrial complex doesn't like anti-war politicians. That shouldn't be a surprise.
 
You are just describing why the military industrial complex doesn't like anti-war politicians. That shouldn't be a surprise.

Corbyn and his minder Milne are quite selective about the wars that they anti... for example support for Russia in Ukraine and Georgia, and support for the IRA armed struggle comes to mind. Corbyn wants the UK to withdraw from NATO .. which is generally has kept the peace in Europe for the last 60 years... and he advocates armed struggle against Israel... he is quite adept at wringing his hands though...
I agree with him about the UK nuclear deterrent (although probably for different reasons).
 
The trouble with Corbyn electorally is not that he is a hard socialist. There’s a decent enough chunk of the electorate that presently find this attractive, who are too young to have seen hard socialism in action, who do not pay much tax and who have been left behind by asset price inflation.

The problem for Corbyn is that his vote share is capped (and almost certainly peaked in 2017) because he has been defined by people who should know, as a clear threat to national security. For example, an ex MI6 head has been explicit that had Corbyn been nominated for a Cabinet role by any previous government, it would have been vetoed on national security grounds.

Interesting. That would be considered unethical interference in elections by the security services in the US. Unless they're willing to state *why* they think he would be a threat to national security specifically, it's considered a political act by the security services, which they aren't supposed to do.

In the US, there is a *very* large proportion of the public who sees "national security" claims as inherently bogus -- after all, they were used to promote the Vietnam War, the Iraq War, to defend the indefensible Iran-Contra affair, for the current indefensible border wall nonsense, for the illegal NSA program which is unconstitutionally spying on all Americans, etc. etc. etc.

Perhaps Britain has more respect for MI6 than the US has for the CIA. (Nobody has any respect for the CIA, which failed to notice the fall of the USSR, effectively created the current government of Iran through running an illegal coup in the 1950s, and who had Russian moles running most of its spying operations for decades.)

This chimes with the general public, who have taken note of his responses to acts of terrorism and Russian aggression, as well as a wholly unsatisfactory anti semetic mood that has flourished in the party under his leadership.
I'm not sure you can blame Corbyn for the anti-semitism of some of the random people in the Labour Party. It's mostly Netenyahu's fault, really. I'm not sure what you're referring to regarding "responses to acts of terrorism and Russian aggression", since IIRC he condemned those in no uncertain terms.

Add to this the very real fears under Corbyn of capital controls, “nationalisation” of private pension pots and expropriation of publicly listed companies, and it’s clear that Corbyn and his gang are absolutely the electoral problem for Labour.
Really? Given that, as you said up above, the youth are pretty much in favor of hard socialism? So you're saying that Labour needs a *different* hard socialist leader, one with a better personal record? I guess I could sort of see that.

My personal view is that he only did so well in 2017 because the voting public were told by polls that he was heading for a record defeat. May was so obviously ill equipped for the job and many voters were sore over: Brexit for Conservatives and the Coaltion years for Lib Dems. Corbyn was thus seen as a low risk choice for protest voters, as well as tribal moderate Labour voters. He also did the near impossible by convincing Northern Brexit voters he wanted Brexit, and London Remainers that he did not. Of Labours most vulnerable seats, 16/20 voted Brexit and if top target seats, something like 35/40 did the same. So very hard to see his path to government, UNLESS the Tory party splits in two, which is very unlikely at this point.

Looks like the Tories are already splitting, doesn't it?