I don't mind the electric Macan either if it's going to be the cheapest Porsche BEV. My wife has the fancy for SUV's.
Porsche May Increase Mission E Production Plans, Add Electric Macan
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Cancelling my reservation
- Thread starter TheMaverick
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I don't mind the electric Macan either if it's going to be the cheapest Porsche BEV. My wife has the fancy for SUV's.
Porsche May Increase Mission E Production Plans, Add Electric Macan
I love my 2013 Model S and have a deposit on a 3 that I put down when it was unveiled. I was finally asked to configure the second week of this month and I just can’t bring myself to pull the trigger yet. Being around for a while I’ve seen the growing pains of early built Tesla’s and people feeling like Beta testers for high priced vehicles. I also had a deposit on an X and canceled it after watching the roll out and the amount of production issues they were having. With the 3, I’m possibly a buyer when they finally decide to make the $35,000 model available. Smart money would wait a year or two for them to work out the kinks and let others be the guinea pigs. Really smart money would wait 2+ years and buy a gently used one for cheap. I haven’t decided yet what my choice will be.
I took a risk and got a Model S in early 2013 and never regretted the decision. I made the same choice in getting a Model 3 and so far don't regret it either.
We don't really know that, since Tesla only reports quarterly, do we?
That sounds to me an awful lot like "the $35K Model 3 may not ever happen".
Even just using the official reporting (and there are a lot of other sources to estimate deliveries) they delivered 30 in July and another 190 in August and September.
For those who don't drive far and are in the LA area (perhaps others), it seems BMW is trying to make it's i3 more attractive for Model 3 'holding-pattern' buyers. Linked to another thread:
BMW i3s?? More of everything, now less $$$?
Still not comparable to the Model 3 or the Bolt due to range issues, but at least the pricing is back down to earth where most of your driving is done.
BMW i3s?? More of everything, now less $$$?
Still not comparable to the Model 3 or the Bolt due to range issues, but at least the pricing is back down to earth where most of your driving is done.
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ℬête Noire
Active Member
That's why I'm about >< close to just tossing you in my Ignore bin, as 'nonsense noise'.
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I can see it both ways. I waited and got my Roadster near the end of production, a non-sport 2.5 model, and I'm quite happy I did. The earlier versions I've seen seemed to me not as good as mine. OTOH, in 2004 I decided to get a Prius, for the (then) new and innovative technology and decided not to wait. Six months after I got mine, the waiting list had grown to a year or two. Never had any trouble with it, but Toyotas are very reliable.
My feeling about the Model 3 is that at my age I don't have a lot of time left and I'm taking a chance on an early build in order to have that much more time with the car before I keel over or get too old to drive. (And again, it's the technology that made the difference, specifically EAP.) Teslas are probably less reliable than Toyotas, but Tesla seems to be taking very good care of its customers.
The first Priuses were as reliable as a Schwinn bicycle. And almost as fast.
The trick is, you can't break anything without force. And the Prius has never been about torque. To put things in perspective, when driven assertively, the 2004 Prius will take nearly 3 times as long to reach 60mph as a Model 3LR and twice as long as a Bolt even though the Prius was a mear 2900lb when full of fuel.
People raved about the 40hp VW Beetle. For it's day, it was virtually indestructible if you kept up with the maintenance.
If Tesla put a weak motor in the Model 3 it would probably last forever. But who wants to live forever?
The trick is, you can't break anything without force. And the Prius has never been about torque. To put things in perspective, when driven assertively, the 2004 Prius will take nearly 3 times as long to reach 60mph as a Model 3LR and twice as long as a Bolt even though the Prius was a mear 2900lb when full of fuel.
People raved about the 40hp VW Beetle. For it's day, it was virtually indestructible if you kept up with the maintenance.
If Tesla put a weak motor in the Model 3 it would probably last forever. But who wants to live forever?
The first Priuses were as reliable as a Schwinn bicycle. And almost as fast.
The trick is, you can't break anything without force. And the Prius has never been about torque. To put things in perspective, when driven assertively, the 2004 Prius will take nearly 3 times as long to reach 60mph as a Model 3LR and twice as long as a Bolt even though the Prius was a mear 2900lb when full of fuel.
People raved about the 40hp VW Beetle. For it's day, it was virtually indestructible if you kept up with the maintenance.
If Tesla put a weak motor in the Model 3 it would probably last forever. But who wants to live forever?
Plenty of under-powered cars were unreliable. Torque only affects the drivetrain. Components outside the drivetrain are not subjected to torque, and these also can break down. Toyota and Honda make very reliable cars. Not all car makers do. And to give some perspective, my 2004 Prius has considerably quicker acceleration than the car it replaced, a 1989 Honda Civic, which was a wonderful little car. (I wish the Model 3 were the same size as that Civic, and I hope my Model 3 turns out to be as reliable.)
I disagree entirely with your closing statement. Putting a weak motor in the Model 3 probably wouldn't make it any more reliable than it is now. The only thing that would last longer with a weak motor would be the tires. Torque does eat tires.
Dan Detweiler
Active Member
interesting. i've always made it a habit to ask my mechanic which manufacturers were the most reliable in their experience. Without fail, Toyota and Honda are mentioned. I did hear that in the last decade, Toyota had been struggling with quality.
Innovation is hard. which is why I'm giving so much slack to Tesla.
Not exactly true. Regardless of power, all chassis flex as during acceleration and braking. Road vibration energy increases with speed. Weight puts stress on nearly all components.
No matter how built they are, sports cars don't last like entry level sedans do. Why does a Class 8 truck last 1,000,000 miles routinely? Everything is more robust. That huge engine? Usually 450hp, sometimes a lot less, sometimes a little more. That's equal to what a diesel pickup's HP is today. The big rig is underpowered for it's size.
ummgood
Member
I would venture to say that most auto manufacturers have that many recalls over the lifetime of ownership. To me reliability has to do with how many times you needed an unexpected trip to the service department. With my Honda/Toyotas it has been 0 unexpected trips to the service center that were not battery or some other thing completely unrelated to the car itself. For example my wife's 2014 Odyssey has had a TON of recalls but they were all minor things that were fixed when I brought it in for routine service. It has left me stranded 2 times but both times were for a battery and that is because 1. we have insane heat in Texas and the batteries all do this in any car and 2. the kids constantly leave lights and crap on in the interior that causes the batteries to wear faster. That isn't the fault of the car it is just the nature of carrying around 3 beasts that cannot think of the repercussions for their actions. For my Toyota Tacoma I have had 2 batteries in 7 years leave me stranded (I get the cars jumped and go drive and get them replaced within minutes). The only other time I have been stranded was when a rat chewed through my radiator hose one night and the truck started steaming like crazy on my commute. I pulled over and a new hose and 90 minutes later I was back on the road.
So to me most people feel a car is reliable if it doesn't leave them stranded. If things are caught and fixed when you are at the dealer anyway and that is the only time you have real problems then to me that is a pretty darn reliable car. Yes recalls can be potentially harmful but those seem to effect most of the car industry. (Except for some extreme cases).
Now with that said I find Toyota horrible to work with compared to Honda. I think the lag time between a recall being announced and the time it is fixed to be unacceptable with Toyota. I feel like Honda does their best to rectify the situation as fast as they can while Toyota seems to delay it until they are forced to fix it to save costs. For example I have had several recalls on my Honda and usually they know about it and fix it at the dealer before I realize or have gotten the letter more often than not. For my truck it had a major recall on the rear leaf springs that could snap at any moment and cut the gas tank. I kid you not it took Toyota 18 months to fix my truck after I got the first recall letter.
Anyway I get a feeling that Tesla leaves you stranded a lot more than it should but at the same time the impression that people have with Tesla is more like Honda where they try their best to get you back on the road. My only concern is out of warranty repair.
Yes. To me, reliability means Does the car get me where I want to go, when I want to go there? Several times when my old '89 Civic was in for routine maintenance they found something that needed repair. The car never failed to start, never failed to get me where I wanted to go, never had to be taken to the service center except at scheduled maintenance times. To me, that's 100% reliability.
My Prius failed to start once when the 12V battery died, but the battery was old. I should have known. And once the Prius failed to start and gave a cryptic warning. Turned out I had not closed the door all the way. Except for the time with the dead 12V, it never failed to start and get me where I wanted to go.
I believe that Consumer Reports estimated that the Tesla Model 3 would have "average" reliability. Meaning on a par with all other car makes as an aggregate. I consider that acceptable, given all the ways in which a Tesla is superior to a stinker. I am hopeful that this will improve, as Tesla clearly cares about its customers. Cars today are overall much more reliable than they were in the past, so "average" for a new company is darn good.
My Prius failed to start once when the 12V battery died, but the battery was old. I should have known. And once the Prius failed to start and gave a cryptic warning. Turned out I had not closed the door all the way. Except for the time with the dead 12V, it never failed to start and get me where I wanted to go.
I believe that Consumer Reports estimated that the Tesla Model 3 would have "average" reliability. Meaning on a par with all other car makes as an aggregate. I consider that acceptable, given all the ways in which a Tesla is superior to a stinker. I am hopeful that this will improve, as Tesla clearly cares about its customers. Cars today are overall much more reliable than they were in the past, so "average" for a new company is darn good.
By that token, shouldn't sports car components be more robust compared to entry level sedans knowing very well they will be more prone to abuse?
I see a lot of Porsche and higher end BMW's on the road not driving any faster than other common place cars.
I did read a nice comment on Car and Driver about two weeks ago -- It is much easier to make a reliable car sporty than to make a sporty car reliable. There's truth to it, look at how the Lexus IS beat the 3 Series, A4, ATS in a comparo back in 2013.
Habemus Papem! 2013 BMW 335i M Sport vs. 2013 Cadillac ATS 3.6, 2014 Lexus IS350 F Sport – Comparison Test – Car and Driver
Diesel trucks are not about HP. They're about torque. That 450hp engine probably makes close to 2000lb-ft of torque. "Underpowered for it's [sic] size" is a quite a bit misinformed.
Cute, and not entirely untrue, but that has more to do with deficiencies in the driver than the inherent design of the car.
I love you too.
To be honest, I don't care either way. But saying the price is subject to change in the future, pretty much gives license to raise it without warning or justification. Don't let it bother you so much, it's just my opinion. If Tesla cranks out 200,000 Model 3's at anywhere near the $35K price point, you'll get to say to yourself, "I knew that a**hole would be wrong." In the meantime, it's not looking like there's going to be a $35K Model 3 around anytime soon (meaning before 2019), and there really isn't any argument to that fact. Tesla has pretty much said so themselves. What happens after that is anyone's guess. This is mine: They won't build many, if any, at $35K. I'll check back in a year or so.
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