Charging setup for my condo garage parking space

[theflyer]

As for billing, you and/or your HOA could engage Orange, I have never used them but they seem like an easy/simple way to do Level 1 charging and billing.

Affordable EV Charging at Apartments

Orange designs and creates our hardware and software platform for electric vehicle charging to reduce the installation and management costs of electric vehicle charging at multi-unit properties.

www.orangecharger.com

Orange is a good solution but does require access to cell signals, so it is a bit more involved. If using the 120V units, the transaction fees add up compared to how much juice you can pull.

My spot is actually more desirable （closer to the door) so I bet there’s a chance they’d agree to the swap. As I understand it we don’t own the space but own a contract that guarantees us exclusive use of our space but nothing says the space can’t change (HOA can even reassign spaces on occasion).

Your spot is almost certainly a "Limited common element" and is deeded to your unit. If you look up your unit on your local government's real estate site, you'll almost certainly see the parking spot attached to the unit. You can sell, rent, or trade the spots. The HOA and your local government will have a process for doing so. At our place, one Model 3 owner found another garage space owner willing to swap spots informally so he could get close to an outlet without literally changing ownership of the spots. We documented that in the ad-hoc charging agreement he signed.

With this system how much do you typically get billed for your EV charging?

This depends on your local electricity provider, your local jurisdiction, and your HOA rate plan. For us, it is very cheap. It is likely to be the lowest cost charging you'll encounter. If your Board or HQA management doesn't know this off-hand, you can ask for a year or two's worth of electricity bills and see the average all-in rate (total bill / total kWh on that bill). At our place, I do a running average of four months to smooth out the bumps, and I've been tracking that for years. This allows us to see long-term averages well.

 

[J-a-x]

What you’re proposing sounds reasonable. Probably best to start the conversation with your HOA so everyone can set the right expectations. If you’re the first one to ask for something like this, it may take some time for them to figure out what they want and to come up with the appropriate response (not just for your ask, but future asks too).

I talked to the facilities guy and he said "just use the outlet, no need to ask permission. If anybody complains then we can talk about a more advanced setup". Cool right?

I'd love to work with the HOA to come up with a plan for other residents who don't have an outlet so close but for now I think I'm set. I just need an extension cord that won't cause any problems. Somebody above mentioned 25 ft. x 14/3 Gauge cable which seems like it wouldn't be too hard to find.

Also, I think I'd want to run the cable across the I-beam then down to my car instead of along the ground. Maybe something like this could work to clamp it above me? Not 100% sure though but seems like it would be more subtle than this on the floor of the garage. Any thoughts?

My parking and outlet situation looks like this.

 

[theflyer]

I talked to the facilities guy and he said "just use the outlet, no need to ask permission. If anybody complains then we can talk about a more advanced setup". Cool right?

I'd love to work with the HOA to come up with a plan for other residents who don't have an outlet so close but for now I think I'm set. I just need an extension cord that won't cause any problems. Somebody above mentioned 25 ft. x 14/3 Gauge cable which seems like it wouldn't be too hard to find.

Also, I think I'd want to run the cable across the I-beam then down to my car instead of along the ground. Maybe something like this could work to clamp it above me? Not 100% sure though but seems like it would be more subtle than this on the floor of the garage. Any thoughts?

My parking and outlet situation looks like this.

Good luck. Expect a complaint very quickly. For me, it took less than 24 hours for someone to complain the first time I plugged in, and hysterical rants claiming I'm getting free electricity have continued sporadically over the years.

It sounds like you'll need to use an extension cord. Be very careful and get something much heavier than you think you need to put as little stress on that extension cord as possible. You don't want it overheating and causing a fire. The longer the extension, the more you need to be careful.

 

[J-a-x]

Good luck. Expect a complaint very quickly. For me, it took less than 24 hours for someone to complain the first time I plugged in, and hysterical rants claiming I'm getting free electricity have continued sporadically over the years.

It sounds like you'll need to use an extension cord. Be very careful and get something much heavier than you think you need to put as little stress on that extension cord as possible. You don't want it overheating and causing a fire. The longer the extension, the more you need to be careful.

Interesting. This is what my building staff told me to do. I don't want a complaint. I do think they will be reasonable and not lock down outlets (there's a right to charge law in Boston that says HOA has to work with you to install a charger at your cost). Worst case we'll start coming up with a plan to install charging infrastructure (something like Orange is my guess) sooner rather than later.

 

[karkrazy]

Interesting. This is what my building staff told me to do. I don't want a complaint. I do think they will be reasonable and not lock down outlets (there's a right to charge law in Boston that says HOA has to work with you to install a charger at your cost). Worst case we'll start coming up with a plan to install charging infrastructure (something like Orange is my guess) sooner rather than later.

If I were you, I’d just go ahead and do it and let things play out. You did your due diligence and worked with the HOA as best as both parties could. If someone else complains, take it from there. What you’re trying to do is pretty simple and reasonable.

Good luck!

 

[theflyer]

Interesting. This is what my building staff told me to do. I don't want a complaint. I do think they will be reasonable and not lock down outlets (there's a right to charge law in Boston that says HOA has to work with you to install a charger at your cost). Worst case we'll start coming up with a plan to install charging infrastructure (something like Orange is my guess) sooner rather than later.

For sure. They gave you the go-ahead, so definitely take them up on the offer. When the complaints come, you can work with the HOA to take the next steps.

 

[Eric33432]

Curious what ever came of this? Did you get complaints? Did you install a circuit and a Level 2 charging station?

With EVs becoming mainstream, it seems to me that condos that embrace EV charging will have more resale value than condos that don't, so it seems to me that it would be in all owners interest to be pro-EV charging.

That said, having owned several condos over the years, it seems to me that sometimes the most small-minded Kens and Karens seem to get elected to condo boards.

 

[J-a-x]

The building manager told me to go ahead and use the outlet by my car so I did. Then 2 days later I was threatened with a huge fine if I did not stop using it. I stopped using it and put in a formal request with a proposal on how I'd pay for the energy usage. The condo board said they'd think about it and then didn't get back to me for months. Finally they said that I can't use it but they're working on a proposal to electrify all 100+ parking spaces in the garage.

Honestly their proposal is never going to happen, I think it's a stall tactic. They said they are working on it but there's been zero evidence over the last year.

I could sue them under Massachusetts state law which says I am allowed to charge my car in any safe, reasonable way in a HOA garage as long as I reimburse the HOA for the usage, but it seems too messy to do that. So I've just been charging elsewhere. Sad state of affairs.

 

[arni]

I’m on the board in my community and started advocating/ suggesting we plan for when residents without dedicated garages need to charge. They lost their minds!!

i’d pioneer, they can’t stop you - it’s just going to cost. Your property value should increase with the install.. a smidgen.. if it were me (our buildings/parking are setup different I’m sure) I’d burrow a line from my panel to the spot - install the TWC on a podium. Maybe you can reach out to an electrician as a first step? You can authorize cars in the app to prevent unauthorized charging.

 

[arni]

Also, to kill off the stall tactic, electrifying that many parking spaces would be very expensive. Ask where the money is coming from in your next public board meeting. In my experience all expenses are planned 10+ years in advance and that influences the monthly HOA amount. There should be a line item specific to this work in your reserve study.

 

[Eric33432]

The building manager told me to go ahead and use the outlet by my car so I did. Then 2 days later I was threatened with a huge fine if I did not stop using it. I stopped using it and put in a formal request with a proposal on how I'd pay for the energy usage. The condo board said they'd think about it and then didn't get back to me for months. Finally they said that I can't use it but they're working on a proposal to electrify all 100+ parking spaces in the garage.

Honestly their proposal is never going to happen, I think it's a stall tactic. They said they are working on it but there's been zero evidence over the last year.

I could sue them under Massachusetts state law which says I am allowed to charge my car in any safe, reasonable way in a HOA garage as long as I reimburse the HOA for the usage, but it seems too messy to do that. So I've just been charging elsewhere. Sad state of affairs.

Sorry to hear that they are so close minded.

To electrify 100 parking places even at a low charging rate, say 24 amps @ 208 volts, would require over 150 kw of power assuming up to 1/3 of the cars were charging at the same time. I have no idea if that is a reasonable demand factor or not.

That would require the installation of about a 500 amp 3 phase service, plus all the branch circuits installed to each parking place. Hugely expensive and of course unfeasible today.

Imagine in 25 or 50 years when everyone is driving an EV. To make this work at a reasonable cost, it is going to require some real engineering to coordinate the demand of a hundred or more chargers with the available power. Is there even such a technology available today?

I have a friend who lives in a new 12 story condo building that was completed in 2020 here in Boca that allows individual owners to install dedicated circuits for EV charging to their parking spot(s) in the underground parking garage. The unit owner has to pay to have the circuit installed -- the building installed a special breaker panel in the parking garage for that purpose. I have seen several circuits run in EMT conduit here and there in the garage. But I am not sure how they bill for the electric power usage (there are not separate meters), nor do I know what the ultimate capability of that panel is, and if they have a plan for when the capacity of the panel, service, transformer, etc., is fully utilized. It is on the same large transformer that serves the building's regular power and looks to be on the building's house meter. The individual units each have their own meters in meter rooms on every third floor and there was no provision made to be able to run circuits from the individual units down to the parking garage.

 

[SVMike]

Imagine in 25 or 50 years when everyone is driving an EV. To make this work at a reasonable cost, it is going to require some real engineering to coordinate the demand of a hundred or more chargers with the available power. Is there even such a technology available today?

The future is here.
My work parking garage has had ~48 ChargePoint chargers for over 6 years and most days all are in use at once by 10am
Most of them supply 6kw all the time. But 2 are on the ground floor and marked for handicap usage and if both are in use they cut back to ~1/2 power.

 

[Eric33432]

The future is here.
My work parking garage has had ~48 ChargePoint chargers for over 6 years and most days all are in use at once by 10am
Most of them supply 6kw all the time. But 2 are on the ground floor and marked for handicap usage and if both are in use they cut back to ~1/2 power.

That is great, but you are in Silicon Valley which clearly is more enlightened than most places in the US.

Curious, does your employer provide these to the staff as a benefit, or is there a cost to use them?

This would require a pretty large electrical service and be expensive to install, too expensive for most HOAs. Assuming it is three phase 208 volt, that would require at least a 300 kva transformer and probably a 1,000 amp electrical service (48 * 6,000 = 288,000 ÷ 208 ÷1.73 = 800.35 amps.

And they are running during the day which is probably the peak time for the cost of electricity?

Notwithstanding your installation at work, I still think the future wide scale installation of EV charging infrastructure in large condo/apartment buildings is going to require the demand on that infrastructure that is created by hundreds of EVs be managed to ensure they are not all charging at the same time at full power, let alone the impact of millions of EVs charging will have on the grid.

 

[RTPEV]

That is great, but you are in Silicon Valley which clearly is more enlightened than most places in the US.

Curious, does your employer provide these to the staff as a benefit, or is there a cost to use them?

This would require a pretty large electrical service and be expensive to install, too expensive for most HOAs. Assuming it is three phase 208 volt, that would require at least a 300 kva transformer and probably a 1,000 amp electrical service (48 * 6,000 = 288,000 ÷ 208 ÷1.73 = 800.35 amps.

And they are running during the day which is probably the peak time for the cost of electricity?

Notwithstanding your installation at work, I still think the future wide scale installation of EV charging infrastructure in large condo/apartment buildings is going to require the demand on that infrastructure that is created by hundreds of EVs be managed to ensure they are not all charging at the same time at full power, let alone the impact of millions of EVs charging will have on the grid.

There are many solutions to the problem of managing loads.

One specifically designed for condos is this: DCC-9 | Charge controller for electric vehicles | RVE

This is applicable where the physical layout allows for tapping in to each tenant's meter and running power out to a dedicated parking spot. It also solves the problem of cost recovery, because it is using power from their own meter rather than a common one.

Here are some other more general options and solution providers:

EverCharge - Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Solutions For Multi-Family Residential Communities

The only fully-managed EV charging solution designed for multi-family residential communities.

evercharge.com

Commercial EV Charging Solutions Powered by Clean Technology | PowerFlex

PowerFlex delivers EV charging solutions for leaders making the transformation to carbon-free electrification and transportation possible.

www.powerflex.com

Level 2 EV Chargers | Atom Power | 48A 80A

Atom EV Level 2 chargers are powered by our patented, software-defined solid-state digital circuit breaker, providing the highest levels of reliability, scalability, and security.

www.atompower.com

SWTCH EV Charging Solution: Multifamily Properties

swtchenergy.com

These two don't necessarily solve the load sharing problem, but they do resolve the cost recovery problem:

Orange Outlet - Affordable, Profitable EV Charging

Orange Outlet is the most cost-effective way to turn charging from an expensive amenity to a revenue-generating profit center at any multi-unit property.

www.orangecharger.com

Plugzio | Affordable, Simple, Scalable EV Charging

Plugzio is the most affordable & scalable way to control, monitor & get compensated for electricity usage in a property often using existing infrastructure.

www.plugzio.com

 

[theflyer]

There are many solutions to the problem of managing loads.

One specifically designed for condos is this: DCC-9 | Charge controller for electric vehicles | RVE

This is applicable where the physical layout allows for tapping in to each tenant's meter and running power out to a dedicated parking spot. It also solves the problem of cost recovery, because it is using power from their own meter rather than a common one.

Here are some other more general options and solution providers:

EverCharge - Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Solutions For Multi-Family Residential Communities

The only fully-managed EV charging solution designed for multi-family residential communities.

evercharge.com

Commercial EV Charging Solutions Powered by Clean Technology | PowerFlex

PowerFlex delivers EV charging solutions for leaders making the transformation to carbon-free electrification and transportation possible.

www.powerflex.com

Level 2 EV Chargers | Atom Power | 48A 80A

Atom EV Level 2 chargers are powered by our patented, software-defined solid-state digital circuit breaker, providing the highest levels of reliability, scalability, and security.

www.atompower.com

SWTCH EV Charging Solution: Multifamily Properties

swtchenergy.com

These two don't necessarily solve the load sharing problem, but they do resolve the cost recovery problem:

Orange Outlet - Affordable, Profitable EV Charging

Orange Outlet is the most cost-effective way to turn charging from an expensive amenity to a revenue-generating profit center at any multi-unit property.

www.orangecharger.com

Plugzio | Affordable, Simple, Scalable EV Charging

Plugzio is the most affordable & scalable way to control, monitor & get compensated for electricity usage in a property often using existing infrastructure.

www.plugzio.com

Those are good options. There is also Tesla's commercial charging solution, which works particularly well on a common-metered circuit. It utilizes the universal wall connector (has both NACS and J1772) and has a very low fee of 1cent/kWh delivered that is billed annually to the site owner. Per kWh pricing is set by the site owner. The EVSEs can do load balancing across six EVSEs (they have to be able to see each other). Tesla's dashboard for the site owner has fewer features than the other solution providers listed above, but it is functional enough.

They require a minimum install of four EVSEs.
Unsure how well it would work if each EVSE is separately metered. It might be fine. I don't know.

[email protected]

This is the solution I'm pursuing for our condominium. I've looked at most of the others above as well, and they all have good offerings.

 

[Eric33432]

Those are good options. There is also Tesla's commercial charging solution, which works particularly well on a common-metered circuit. It utilizes the universal wall connector (has both NACS and J1772) and has a very low fee of 1cent/kWh delivered that is billed annually to the site owner. Per kWh pricing is set by the site owner. The EVSEs can do load balancing across six EVSEs (they have to be able to see each other). Tesla's dashboard for the site owner has fewer features than the other solution providers listed above, but it is functional enough.

They require a minimum install of four EVSEs.
Unsure how well it would work if each EVSE is separately metered. It might be fine. I don't know.

[email protected]

This is the solution I'm pursuing for our condominium. I've looked at most of the others above as well, and they all have good offerings.

Would this scale for 100+ charging stations?

 

[theflyer]

Would this scale for 100+ charging stations?

Yes. I think so. You'd install them In banks of six that load balance within each bank. The banks could be on one or more circuits. For 100 EVSEs, You'd need enough power available to support about 17 circuits at whatever power level you wanted to provide to the vehicles. e.g., if you want to support 40A L2 charging, you'd need about 17*50A of available 220/240v power. If you want to support 32A L2 charging, you'd need 17*40A.

Other providers like SWTCH and Atom have excellent whole-circuit load balancing that should be considered for big installs. For example, SWTCH could load balance across all 100 EVSEs. So, if you put all 100 EVSEs on a single panel (probably not possible or desired, but go with me), SWTCH would throttle all the EVSEs to keep the total load below that panel's limits. With the right install, I believe SWTCH can even manage to the limits of the whole building's transformer, so you can even oversubscribe the whole building circuit.

Obviously, these types of installs get complicated and require serious thought and analysis to ensure you are managing your available power correctly. IOW, get expert help.

 

[SVMike]

That is great, but you are in Silicon Valley which clearly is more enlightened than most places in the US.

Curious, does your employer provide these to the staff as a benefit, or is there a cost to use them?

This would require a pretty large electrical service and be expensive to install, too expensive for most HOAs. Assuming it is three phase 208 volt, that would require at least a 300 kva transformer and probably a 1,000 amp electrical service (48 * 6,000 = 288,000 ÷ 208 ÷1.73 = 800.35 amps.

And they are running during the day which is probably the peak time for the cost of electricity?

Notwithstanding your installation at work, I still think the future wide scale installation of EV charging infrastructure in large condo/apartment buildings is going to require the demand on that infrastructure that is created by hundreds of EVs be managed to ensure they are not all charging at the same time at full power, let alone the impact of millions of EVs charging will have on the grid.

The facility was built from 2013-2017 and consists of 3 other similar 6 story parking garages and 8 office buildings ( 6-8 stories each) plus shopping, restaurants, gyms, etc.
The ChargePoint chargers are $3/hr or free for the first 4 hours (paid by the various company tenants). Nearby the same builder constructed several buildings with 1000+ apartments including parking with chargers. And yes, they are all powered on during the day. Probably several hundred chargers in total.

 

[Eric33432]

Yes. I think so. You'd install them In banks of six that load balance within each bank. The banks could be on one or more circuits. For 100 EVSEs, You'd need enough power available to support about 17 circuits at whatever power level you wanted to provide to the vehicles. e.g., if you want to support 40A L2 charging, you'd need about 17*50A of available 220/240v power. If you want to support 32A L2 charging, you'd need 17*40A.

Other providers like SWTCH and Atom have excellent whole-circuit load balancing that should be considered for big installs. For example, SWTCH could load balance across all 100 EVSEs. So, if you put all 100 EVSEs on a single panel (probably not possible or desired, but go with me), SWTCH would throttle all the EVSEs to keep the total load below that panel's limits. With the right install, I believe SWTCH can even manage to the limits of the whole building's transformer, so you can even oversubscribe the whole building circuit.

Obviously, these types of installs get complicated and require serious thought and analysis to ensure you are managing your available power correctly. IOW, get expert help.

The facility was built from 2013-2017 and consists of 3 other similar 6 story parking garages and 8 office buildings ( 6-8 stories each) plus shopping, restaurants, gyms, etc.
The ChargePoint chargers are $3/hr or free for the first 4 hours (paid by the various company tenants). Nearby the same builder constructed several buildings with 1000+ apartments including parking with chargers. And yes, they are all powered on during the day. Probably several hundred chargers in total.

Those are good options. There is also Tesla's commercial charging solution, which works particularly well on a common-metered circuit. It utilizes the universal wall connector (has both NACS and J1772) and has a very low fee of 1cent/kWh delivered that is billed annually to the site owner. Per kWh pricing is set by the site owner. The EVSEs can do load balancing across six EVSEs (they have to be able to see each other). Tesla's dashboard for the site owner has fewer features than the other solution providers listed above, but it is functional enough.

They require a minimum install of four EVSEs.
Unsure how well it would work if each EVSE is separately metered. It might be fine. I don't know.

[email protected]

This is the solution I'm pursuing for our condominium. I've looked at most of the others above as well, and they all have good offerings.

There are many solutions to the problem of managing loads.

One specifically designed for condos is this: DCC-9 | Charge controller for electric vehicles | RVE

This is applicable where the physical layout allows for tapping in to each tenant's meter and running power out to a dedicated parking spot. It also solves the problem of cost recovery, because it is using power from their own meter rather than a common one.

Here are some other more general options and solution providers:

EverCharge - Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Solutions For Multi-Family Residential Communities

The only fully-managed EV charging solution designed for multi-family residential communities.

evercharge.com

Commercial EV Charging Solutions Powered by Clean Technology | PowerFlex

PowerFlex delivers EV charging solutions for leaders making the transformation to carbon-free electrification and transportation possible.

www.powerflex.com

Level 2 EV Chargers | Atom Power | 48A 80A

Atom EV Level 2 chargers are powered by our patented, software-defined solid-state digital circuit breaker, providing the highest levels of reliability, scalability, and security.

www.atompower.com

SWTCH EV Charging Solution: Multifamily Properties

swtchenergy.com

These two don't necessarily solve the load sharing problem, but they do resolve the cost recovery problem:

Orange Outlet - Affordable, Profitable EV Charging

Orange Outlet is the most cost-effective way to turn charging from an expensive amenity to a revenue-generating profit center at any multi-unit property.

www.orangecharger.com

Plugzio | Affordable, Simple, Scalable EV Charging

Plugzio is the most affordable & scalable way to control, monitor & get compensated for electricity usage in a property often using existing infrastructure.

www.plugzio.com

It is great to know that this technology is possible today. As an EE I have been thinking about the best way to implement EV charging in large scale deployments.

Building from scratch in an enlightened area like Silicon Valley, it would seem to me the whole building approach would make sense, and be desirable for a large scale implementation, although it appears what has been done in SVMike's building has not been concerned with load management.

For an existing condo building, where EV adoption is happening slowly over time, it would seem to me installing Tesla's implementation would make sense. To install 100+ EVSE, as J-a-x HOA is considering is preposterous, and as J-a-x says is probably just to stall things. But the Tesla implementation could be installed starting small and growing along with the EV adoption of the building's owners. Seems reasonable.

 

[SVMike]

It is great to know that this technology is possible today. As an EE I have been thinking about the best way to implement EV charging in large scale deployments.

Building from scratch in an enlightened area like Silicon Valley, it would seem to me the whole building approach would make sense, and be desirable for a large scale implementation, although it appears what has been done in SVMike's building has not been concerned with load management.

For an existing condo building, where EV adoption is happening slowly over time, it would seem to me installing Tesla's implementation would make sense. To install 100+ EVSE, as J-a-x HOA is considering is preposterous, and as J-a-x says is probably just to stall things. But the Tesla implementation could be installed starting small and growing along with the EV adoption of the building's owners. Seems reasonable.

FYI, looking something else up I found out that each building is 4000 amps at 480/277 volts (I guess this means 3 phase)
Depending on how that math works it is 1 or 2 MW. 50 L2 chargers (usually 6kw) would be 300kw, so a pretty big add to a parking garage that has just some lighting and elevator. (lighting: ~1500 stalls with about 25w or 50w of LEDs, with sensor per stall is only 75kw