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Charging stops (out of Market Action)

mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
14,807
51,091
Michigan
No one I know that has supercharged more than one trip sits for 40 minutes. You can get enough charge to get to the next charger in about 15 minutes. Or, you can eat lunch.

Tell that to the Tesla route planner

Model X 100D
Ann Arbor, MI, USA
Grove City, OH 50 min charge
Charleston, WV 45 min charge
Wytheville, VA 40 min charge
Charlotte, NC 70 min charge
Santee, SC 40 min charge
Savannah, GA 35 min charge
Kingsland, GA 20 min charge
St. Augustine, FL 45 min charge
Cocoa Beach, FL 32931, USA
Duration: 24 h 29 min (1,195 mi)

Edit: Wait, why is this in market action?
 

dc_h

Active Member
Feb 14, 2015
3,632
13,902
Naperville, IL
Tell that to the Tesla route planner

Model X 100D
Ann Arbor, MI, USA
Grove City, OH 50 min charge
Charleston, WV 45 min charge
Wytheville, VA 40 min charge
Charlotte, NC 70 min charge
Santee, SC 40 min charge
Savannah, GA 35 min charge
Kingsland, GA 20 min charge
St. Augustine, FL 45 min charge
Cocoa Beach, FL 32931, USA
Duration: 24 h 29 min (1,195 mi)

Edit: Wait, why is this in market action?
Sorry, off track here, but are you saying you spent more than a minute charging for every mile travelled?
 
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dc_h

Active Member
Feb 14, 2015
3,632
13,902
Naperville, IL
That is total trip time, charging time would be like 7 hours. I ended up renting an ICE (don't own a Tesla), this was a reality check on getting to Canaveral in a Turo X.
Not sure why the expected long charge times. Based on your 100 mike intervals, you need about a 10 minute stop. I checked the supercharger info site and you only needed 4 stops. Only Charlotte to Savannah needs a full charge and would be about 45 minutes and staying under 70.
 

mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
14,807
51,091
Michigan
Not sure why the expected long charge times. Based on your 100 mike intervals, you need about a 10 minute stop. I checked the supercharger info site and you only needed 4 stops. Only Charlotte to Savannah needs a full charge and would be about 45 minutes and staying under 70.

Shrug. I tried evtripplanner also, it gave shorter stops, but more of them and fairly equivalent total time. Personally, would rather do fewer stops to avoid of highway/start charging/stop charging/on ramp. Especially since one day was alllllll rain.
 
I thought that was an odd comment. 40 minutes each time? I don't even stop that long many times in my 2013 S60. We stop long enough to get the range needed to the next charger +10-20% then move on unless there is something near by to do in which case we usually end up staying an hour. In the newer Tesla's the charge time is faster (I am limited to 90kWh? i think) and the newer larger batteries can take more at a higher charge rate before slowing down.

Now if you want to skip chargers you will be sitting a long time in even the new vehicles. Coming back home one trip a few years ago from Glacier we stopped at every charger and at practically every other charger was the same S100. He was skipping chargers when he could but actually taking longer in total charge time because once you take in the first half of the battery the charging slows down so it is smarter to stop at each one and actually move along faster with 15-20 minute charges each time.

I know the modern day rush really doesn't allow people that kind of time for some reason. My wife and I went to St Augustine, FL for the week of Valentines day from St. Louis. The route we drove was a little over 1000 miles and would have been 17 hours of just driving. Two days no matter what because we have found it is pointless to push long drives in one go like that to just sleep the entire next day recovering. The added charge times which were planned with things to do at the most stops made each day enjoyable.

Out of those 17 hours over two days we would stop for lunch and a dinner even with a gas car. The lunch maybe 30, the dinner around an hour. SO that's an extra 2:30 hours right there. We would of also taken stops at rest areas for 15 minutes (say 3) so another 45 minutes and of coarse the required 3 gas fill-ups which I know everyone else pees in a bottle and drinks from the cooler but we take about 10 to 15 minutes at the gas station when in an ICE on long trips so another 45 minutes there. Total non-drive time in a gas car 4 hours (2 each day). Total time charging for us was 6 hours (3 each day). Oh my GOD we wasted an hour each day while my wife shopped in a store.

Loved the entire drive in my Tesla. I just never got the whole shoveling a hamburger from McDonald's down my throat while trying to watch the road thru a rainstorm mentality. My wife and I call those people destination people. They rush places as fast as possible and miss everything along the way. We've noticed many of the Tesla drivers don't even get out of their cars except to plug in. (altho understandable thru Kansas!)

There really is nothing wrong with the destination people. Everyone has their own way of doing things. For my trip they would have left at 6am on Saturday and drove their ICE straight thru arriving at St Augustine at 3am Sunday and then slept until noonish. They gained 7-8 awake hours in St. Augustine but missed many enjoyable events along the way.

For the times when I really want the extra time at my destination I fly. Why waste the 17 hours on the road if I really want to spend that time at only one location.
 

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mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
14,807
51,091
Michigan
I thought that was an odd comment. 40 minutes each time? I don't even stop that long many times in my 2013 S60. We stop long enough to get the range needed to the next charger +10-20% then move on unless there is something near by to do in which case we usually end up staying an hour. In the newer Tesla's the charge time is faster (I am limited to 90kWh? i think) and the newer larger batteries can take more at a higher charge rate before slowing down.

Now if you want to skip chargers you will be sitting a long time in even the new vehicles. Coming back home one trip a few years ago from Glacier we stopped at every charger and at practically every other charger was the same S100. He was skipping chargers when he could but actually taking longer in total charge time because once you take in the first half of the battery the charging slows down so it is smarter to stop at each one and actually move along faster with 15-20 minute charges each time.

I know the modern day rush really doesn't allow people that kind of time for some reason. My wife and I went to St Augustine, FL for the week of Valentines day from St. Louis. The route we drove was a little over 1000 miles and would have been 17 hours of just driving. Two days no matter what because we have found it is pointless to push long drives in one go like that to just sleep the entire next day recovering. The added charge times which were planned with things to do at the most stops made each day enjoyable.

Out of those 17 hours over two days we would stop for lunch and a dinner even with a gas car. The lunch maybe 30, the dinner around an hour. SO that's an extra 2:30 hours right there. We would of also taken stops at rest areas for 15 minutes (say 3) so another 45 minutes and of coarse the required 3 gas fill-ups which I know everyone else pees in a bottle and drinks from the cooler but we take about 10 to 15 minutes at the gas station when in an ICE on long trips so another 45 minutes there. Total non-drive time in a gas car 4 hours (2 each day). Total time charging for us was 6 hours (3 each day). Oh my GOD we wasted an hour each day while my wife shopped in a store.

Loved the entire drive in my Tesla. I just never got the whole shoveling a hamburger from McDonald's down my throat while trying to watch the road thru a rainstorm mentality. My wife and I call those people destination people. They rush places as fast as possible and miss everything along the way. We've noticed many of the Tesla drivers don't even get out of their cars except to plug in. (altho understandable thru Kansas!)

There really is nothing wrong with the destination people. Everyone has their own way of doing things. For my trip they would have left at 6am on Saturday and drove their ICE straight thru arriving at St Augustine at 3am Sunday and then slept until noonish. They gained 7-8 awake hours in St. Augustine but missed many enjoyable events along the way.

For the times when I really want the extra time at my destination I fly. Why waste the 17 hours on the road if I really want to spend that time at only one location.

The Ann Arbor to Cocoa Beach trip was to see the Heavy launch, so definitely a destination trip getting there. With a stop to see wife's sister on the way down, the time needed for charging would have pushed us into an extra day on the road for safe driving. The way back was 3 days leisure/ avoid the blizzard with a day in Charleston.
If we owned a Tesla, we would have taken it, but the cost of a Turo on top of the extra drive time made us go with an ICE rental (vs 14+ year old car).
 
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DurandalAI

Member
Dec 20, 2016
965
3,031
US
Sorry, off track here, but are you saying you spent more than a minute charging for every mile travelled?
24 hours of drive time, but that doesn’t take into account destination charging at hotels. I would assume at minimum this would be 2 days of driving, maybe even 3 if you split it into 3 days at 8hrs each. That takes out 2-3 charges that would be hindrances.
 

mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
14,807
51,091
Michigan
24 hours of drive time, but that doesn’t take into account destination charging at hotels. I would assume at minimum this would be 2 days of driving, maybe even 3 if you split it into 3 days at 8hrs each. That takes out 2-3 charges that would be hindrances.

On a two day sprint, a hotel charger only removes one charge stop (assuming start trip full and end trip empty).
This particular situation lives on the edge of how many hours a day is comfortable/ safe (for me). 4 hours less and it's 2 days EV or ICE, 4 hour more and it's 3 days ICE or EV.
 

DurandalAI

Member
Dec 20, 2016
965
3,031
US
On a two day sprint, a hotel charger only removes one charge stop (assuming start trip full and end trip empty).
This particular situation lives on the edge of how many hours a day is comfortable/ safe (for me). 4 hours less and it's 2 days EV or ICE, 4 hour more and it's 3 days ICE or EV.
Wow. No way I would go over 12 hours in a day. There is a reason why Semi drivers have mandatory break periods, it’s because it is statistically more dangerous over 12 hours due to exhaustion. But as you admit, this is an edge case, which I would readily agree to it being an edge case.
 
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dc_h

Active Member
Feb 14, 2015
3,632
13,902
Naperville, IL
Wow. No way I would go over 12 hours in a day. There is a reason why Semi drivers have mandatory break periods, it’s because it is statistically more dangerous over 12 hours due to exhaustion. But as you admit, this is an edge case, which I would readily agree to it being an edge case.
I flew down to see the FH. If it came down to seeing the rocket or driving an EV to Florida, I'll see the rocket. I think you could have done fewer stops, but glad you saw the rocket.
 

mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
14,807
51,091
Michigan
Sorry I had to disagree. GFCI is now REQUIRED by the new electrical code. Yes it is STUPID but it is now required. THEY are trying to make EV ownership annoying.

EDIT for added link....
Code Question

I'm not saying to not have a GFCI, I'm saying use an EV one rated for the purpose. In other words, a hard wired EVSE is going to be more reliable that a normal GFCI outlet + mobile EVSE. Especially given connector cycle life.
 
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I'm not saying to not have a GFCI, I'm saying use an EV one rated for the purpose. In other words, a hard wired EVSE is going to be more reliable that a normal GFCI outlet + mobile EVSE. Especially given connector cycle life.
Good point but I always fall back on RVs. People have been plugging and unplugging RV for almost 100 years now and things are working just fine without special plugs and boxes. Sure if the hotel wants to supply more than 40 amps they should install an EVSE but an EVSE is not needed for anything under 40 amps.

The argument about nuisance trips falls flat on it's face for me. The last two times I charged at two different hotels with an EVSE the breaker in the locked electrical room tripped to the EVSE because they didn't size stuff right. Naturally the maintenance guy was not there and would not be in until the morning. MUCH more of an issue than having a plug and breaker right there where I am charging so I can simply reset it myself and turn down my amp draw manually.

Moisture does not effect things as much anymore as GFCIs have become much more reliable. If you have a bad cable that water is getting into then yes it will trip but you should replace that bad cable not keep resetting the GFCI. That is not a GFCI problem. That is a safety problem.

I also never leave on a long trip without my UMC. No one should. Not until Superchargers are every 50 miles apart.

EVSEs mounted on a wall and hard wired will also need to be wired to a GFCI breaker. So you have the trip issue either way.
 
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mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
14,807
51,091
Michigan
Good point but I always fall back on RVs. People have been plugging and unplugging RV for almost 100 years now and things are working just fine without special plugs and boxes. Sure if the hotel wants to supply more than 40 amps they should install an EVSE but an EVSE is not needed for anything under 40 amps.

The argument about nuisance trips falls flat on it's face for me. The last two times I charged at two different hotels with an EVSE the breaker in the locked electrical room tripped to the EVSE because they didn't size stuff right. Naturally the maintenance guy was not there and would not be in until the morning. MUCH more of an issue than having a plug and breaker right there where I am charging so I can simply reset it myself and turn down my amp draw manually.

Moisture does not effect things as much anymore as GFCIs have become much more reliable. If you have a bad cable that water is getting into then yes it will trip but you should replace that bad cable not keep resetting the GFCI. That is not a GFCI problem. That is a safety problem.

I also never leave on a long trip without my UMC. No one should. Not until Superchargers are every 50 miles apart.

EVSEs mounted on a wall and hard wired will also need to be wired to a GFCI breaker. So you have the trip issue either way.

Sure, but old style RV plugs didn't have GFCI. They also get cycled less and usually run at a lower load.

I worked on EVSE equipment in a previous job, there is a reason they get to have 3 times the leakage current.
As for damp, you can have a weak conductive path due to condensation or rain (not talking the GFCI itself being damaged), this is often a problem with new hot tubs, it take a few cycles to clear the faults.

Sure, take your UMC, but the original post was about equipment for hotel and destination charging.

Hard wired EVSE equipment should not require an additional GFCI breaker since it is not a receptacle. Do you have a code reference?
 
Sure, but old style RV plugs didn't have GFCI. They also get cycled less and usually run at a lower load.
Modern RV sites have GFCI. They have no/few GFCI trip problems. Amperage has nothing to do with leakage current trips (GFCI). And if you have ever seen an RV campground (go to Yellowstone some time) you would realize your statement about less cycles is purely made up. Hotel car charging locations are typically empty when compared. Your whole fear factor GFCI stuff is bull and you just don't know it. Modern hospital switch gear has GFCI built into the MIAN disconnect. Hospitals draw lots of amps and do not trip out power from nuance trips.

It was my understanding that all EVSE systems already have GFCI built into them or I should say the equivalent. "they use a charge circuit interrupting device (CCID) to stop any leakage of electricity." (One example is linked below) You will get the same nuisance trips as modern day GFCIs.

In either case if equipment is taken care of properly it will not be an issue with a portable or hardwired EVSE. Hardwired is for higher amperage.

I remember the hard wired EVSE's (chargepoint) at the local university where I lived often had problems with similar GFCI type problems except it's would technically be called CCID problems because they had rental electric vehicles charging at the spots and the people that rented them would just unplug and drop the cord on the ground. They'd get saturated inside the port on rainy days and trip out inside the EVSE at next use. Same as with any GFCI. If a person brings their own $500 UMC they will take care of it better. Then there is also the failures from the cords getting run over, constantly. Again when someone brings their own it will get taken care of.

Your arrangement for hotels to use hardwired EVSE systems is from an industry point of view that wants to make extra money selling a BOX that does nothing but turn on a relay to provide 240 volts to the car because the car has the chargers inside. I would say it's a fantastic idea except for the price being charged for these switch boxes. No hotel, parking garage or apartment wants to spend that kind of money. I know I just installed 14-50s at a local apartment building that thought the price for an EVSE was outrageous compared to a GFCI'd plug. Plus the apartment LOVES the idea of not having to provide the maintenance for the EVSE because that belongs to the customer.

https://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/inter.../docs_Home/SIE_WP_ EVSE Basic White Paper.pdf
 
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mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
14,807
51,091
Michigan
Modern RV sites have GFCI. They have no/few GFCI trip problems. Amperage has nothing to do with leakage current trips (GFCI). And if you have ever seen an RV campground (go to Yellowstone some time) you would realize your statement about less cycles is purely made up. Hotel car charging locations are typically empty when compared. Your whole fear factor GFCI stuff is bull and you just don't know it. Modern hospital switch gear has GFCI built into the MIAN disconnect. Hospitals draw lots of amps and do not trip out power from nuance trips.

It was my understanding that all EVSE systems already have GFCI built into them or I should say the equivalent. "they use a charge circuit interrupting device (CCID) to stop any leakage of electricity." (One example is linked below) You will get the same nuisance trips as modern day GFCIs.

In either case if equipment is taken care of properly it will not be an issue with a portable or hardwired EVSE. Hardwired is for higher amperage.

I remember the hard wired EVSE's (chargepoint) at the local university where I lived often had problems with similar GFCI type problems except it's would technically be called CCID problems because they had rental electric vehicles charging at the spots and the people that rented them would just unplug and drop the cord on the ground. They'd get saturated inside the port on rainy days and trip out inside the EVSE at next use. Same as with any GFCI. If a person brings their own $500 UMC they will take care of it better. Then there is also the failures from the cords getting run over, constantly. Again when someone brings their own it will get taken care of.

Your arrangement for hotels to use hardwired EVSE systems is from an industry point of view that wants to make extra money selling a BOX that does nothing but turn on a relay to provide 240 volts to the car because the car has the chargers inside. I would say it's a fantastic idea except for the price being charged for these switch boxes. No hotel, parking garage or apartment wants to spend that kind of money. I know I just installed 14-50s at a local apartment building that thought the price for an EVSE was outrageous compared to a GFCI'd plug. Plus the apartment LOVES the idea of not having to provide the maintenance for the EVSE because that belongs to the customer.

https://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/internet-dms/btlv/Residential/Residential/docs_Home/SIE_WP_ EVSE Basic White Paper.pdf

It seems to me large RVs (esp those with a towed car for local travel) would only plug/ unplug at most one a day. A busy hotel with charging would be used at least once a day, if people share nice. One person charges in the evening, another in the morning, and both pull the max current they can, versus an RV which is likely not at 40A very often.

My comment about current is due to the impact of insertion cycle wear on the receptacle and sensitivity to high current draw (power = I^2*R), it has nothing to do with GFCI tripping.

An EVSE has a 20 mA trip level GFCI buit in. A normal GFCI has a 5 (+1) mA trip point.There is also the issue that if the plug in unit does a ground/ neutral check, that can also trip an upstream GFCI. It is not fear factor, the company I used to work with build J1772 charge units back when EVs were new. A normal 5 mA trip level was incompatible with the vehicle / EMC requirements. If you want to believe that is for no reason and has no impact, that is up to you.
 

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