Charging the Roadster

[ToddLa]

hires photos

Here are some hires pictures of the logic boards

https://wkvdyg.blu.livefilestore.co...ERY1ii8t5pF9CMoGhyHXQr6SfhGTLpQuc/HPCLB_2.jpg

https://wkvdyg.blu.livefilestore.co...n1ivxm7H7tPD1A_3b_q-dyYkN88BeGoAg/HPCLB_1.jpg

https://wkvdyg.blu.livefilestore.co...G8BDGeTdCbMg6jvAB6F7JPPr7Atnw5NT0/HPCLB_3.jpg

 

[doug]

Edited the PCB images in my posts to link directly to the highres pics.

 

[ChargeIt!]

According to the ClipperCreek TS-70 Manual -- Page 13 (see excerpt below) -- the unit is rated for outdoor use. But verbal info from a Tesla Motors employee indicates that the cable is not rated for outdoors. I suspect that Clipper Creek manufactures the unit, ships to TM and TM adds the cable before forwarding the new HPC unit to customers.

Environment

Operating Temperature -40C (-40F) to +50C (+122F)
NEMA Rating NEMA 4 - outdoor use, watertight.​

Agency Approvals UL and CSA Listed, FCC Part 15

 

[Joseph]

I talked to the owner of Clipper Creek at Battery Beach Bash today. All his fellow employees - probably salesmen - weren't very helpful. However, The owner was very friendly and certainly knowledgable. Their product seemed quite sturdy. He said it is designed for outdoor charing.

Tesla chose them to supply charging stations fro them. Their "charging stations" aren't really charing stations though. He said they're just a bunch of electronics to ensure safety. The actual charger is the inverter, which in the Roadster is the same inverter that powers the car. It's based off of ACP's "reductive charging" technology. ACP even has their "reductive charging" name (instead of inductive or conductive, ha ha) trademarked.

Tesla's "charging station" set off at 5 milivolts (can anyone explain what this means?) He said this was oversensitive - so sensitive it would go off by itself - and when set off, could not reset itself.

Clipper Creek, fortunately, breaks off at 20 milivolts and can reset itself. He said something about the Tesla's charger being hardware. He said all the electrical components are off the shelf. The ony custom piece is the plastic covering. Still, each charger costs aboug $3,000. I don't know if this is to make or at selling price. Since he's the owner, I'd imagine he meant by the cost it takes his compnay to produce. But, he said, the costs should be down to $500 in three or four years. Volume is the only reason.

I also asked about regulations and standards. From his attitude, regs/standards seemed unproblematic. PHEVs and full EVs, he said, share the same charging standard. Interestingly, the two most current EVs - the Mini EV and the Roadster - neither comply. I think he said something aobut Tesla using the charging standard in the future.

 

[DaveD]

Tesla's "charging station" set off at 5 milivolts (can anyone explain what this means?) He said this was oversensitive - so sensitive it would go off by itself - and when set off, could not reset itself.

Clipper Creek, fortunately, breaks off at 20 milivolts and can reset itself.

That small of a voltage sounds like something to do with the ground-fault circuitry. Residual-current device - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The original Tesla HPC has a commerical GFCI in it. In this picture it's the black object right above the Tesla Motors label:

In the Clipper Creek HPC, I believe that the ground-fault circuitry is of Clipper Creek design and part of the PCB in the unit. This is an excerpt from the Clipper Creek manual:

I don't have the schematic diagram of the CC HPC's ground-fault circuit, but looking at this hi-res photograph of its PCB, the U1 and U2 IC's and the discrete components around them, looks like it could be the ground-fault detector.

 

[TEG]

I think DaveD's explanation is probably right. If it is too sensitive and doesn't auto reset then you could have some annoyance with things like electrical noise from another device tripping the GFCI and you have to manually reset it to get back online.

False GFCI Tripping

 

[JRP3]

Tesla chose them to supply charging stations fro them. Their "charging stations" aren't really charing stations though. He said they're just a bunch of electronics to ensure safety. The actual charger is the inverter, which in the Roadster is the same inverter that powers the car. It's based off of ACP's "reductive charging" technology. ACP even has their "reductive charging" name (instead of inductive or conductive, ha ha) trademarked.

Still, each charger costs aboug $3,000. I don't know if this is to make or at selling price. Since he's the owner, I'd imagine he meant by the cost it takes his compnay to produce. But, he said, the costs should be down to $500 in three or four years. Volume is the only reason.

Since the actual charger is already built into the Tesla and uses the inverter and the motor itself to charge the batteries, I don't see how their connection electronics are costing $3,000.

 

[vfx]

Since the actual charger is already built into the Tesla and uses the inverter and the motor itself to charge the batteries, I don't see how their connection electronics are costing $3,000.

Yeah I sort of have the same question. If with a simple plug adapter you can power up with a standard three prong home Edison plug at 120Volts or with a different adapter charge up on a Dryer or RV plug, then why do you need a big ol' $3000.00 box o doodads at all?

 

[graham]

Elon Musk has essentially said the same thing. He plans to redesign and lower the cost of the "charger" significantly in the future.

It seems the primary focus of the developing their new components (over traditional cars) was safety over price. But now it is looking like they have over-engineered the charger in a very expensive manner. I think they plan to redesign the charger in the next 12-18 months as they spin up the Model S.

 

[dpeilow]

Someone care to go over the circuit boards and put together a bill of materials? It's usually possible to do it with a bit of Googling. Parts are normally around 1/3 the cost of a finished device.

 

[JRP3]

I'm no electronics expert but I can't begin to imagine what might be in that box to even cost $500. You've got a big circuit breaker with ground fault, and a little circuit board to shut things down on a fault? I don't get it

 

[doug]

I'm no electronics expert but I can't begin to imagine what might be in that box to even cost $500. You've got a big circuit breaker with ground fault, and a little circuit board to shut things down on a fault? I don't get it

Well that big black cube is a definite purpose contactor, essentially a heavy duty relay for controlling air conditioners or refrigerators, etc.. It's an off the shelf item, but still is about a $300 part. The power cable might cost a couple hundred. I haven't looked at the PCB in detail, didn't notice anything that looked particularly expensive about it, but if I had to build this thing myself I could see it easily costing a couple thousand. I guess it really comes down to volume.

 

[JRP3]

Well that big black cube is a definite purpose contactor, essentially a heavy duty relay for controlling air conditioners or refrigerators, etc.. It's an off the shelf item, but still is about a $300 part.

Ouch, I wasn't expecting that.

The power cable might cost a couple hundred.

Do you know how long it is?

I haven't looked at the PCB in detail, didn't notice anything that looked particularly expensive about it, but if I had to build this thing myself I could see it easily costing a couple thousand. I guess it really comes down to volume.

Other than the big contactor, cord, and GFI, what could be so expensive? All I see on the board is a little transformer, some caps and some chips. What else am I missing?

 

[doug]

Other than the big contactor, cord, and GFI, what could be so expensive? All I see on the board is a little transformer, some caps and some chips. What else am I missing?

Besides the enclosure, you're not really missing anything. Just that from experience of having to build similar things, the little stuff adds up. Again things are much cheaper at volume.

 

[doug]

Coulomb Technologies has in installed some Level 1 charging stations in the Bay Area, notably in San Jose and recently San Francisco. It occurs to me, though, that due to physical interference from the GFCI unit on the plug, the MC120 charging cord that Tesla supplies does not look compatible with those stations.




Of course you could use a short extension, and I guess that's what users will do, but that defeats Coulomb's power theft deterrent.

 

[dpeilow]

You could put a standard plug on Tesla's lead and put the supplied GFCI unit on the extension for when you want to use it elsewhere.

 

[ChargeIt!]

Ouch, I wasn't expecting that. Do you know how long it is?

25 feet. Overkill for most situations. And the weight of the cable "feels" (unscientifically -- without having placed it on a scale) like half of the combined weight of the HPC+Cable. Manual specs page lists weight with cable as 47 lbs.

 

[Kevin Harney]

I have a townhouse. So I would need an outdoor charger and an outdoor cable. 25 feet might be enough if I back the car into the spot. I may need more .... This is one of the things I have been thinking about with the Model S. Even if I bought it could I actually charge it ?!?!?!!?

 

[vfx]

It occurs to me, though, that due to physical interference from the GFCI unit on the plug, the MC120 charging cord that Tesla supplies does not look compatible with those stations....

A workaround that still might fit in the theft deterrent box might be found in a "Cube Tap"

>5 bucks

 

[doug]

The issue is that lid is supposed to lock down, preventing others from stealing the power you're paying for.