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Do the details of Model 3 really matter?

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Mr, WRX: Charging infrastructure only matters if you are going to use it. I don't see the Model 3 as needing that option in my case.

I think I just need the car to 'not suck' for it to win at this point. My experience with the Model S makes me comfortable having a Model 3 as the 'in town' car and the Model S the 'long trips' car. So just need a nice color, good seats. I have faith that Tesla won't give a car that drives weird, while I don't have that faith for any other car manufacturer.

We all have different non-negotiable options.
 
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Hmmm... Pretty much the exact same post could have been made in 2013 relative to Tesla Model S. I would have disagreed with it then, too. Tesla Model S has outsold every flagship vehicle offered by ICE manufacturers from 2013 through 2016, cumulatively four calendar years straight. It is not a fad or 'flash in the pan' at all. Neither is the Model 3.

A flagship is a very limited market. It doesn't take much to be the market leader in that segment for a few years. What works for the flagship market rarely ever works for the bread and butter parts of the market. The customers in each segment have quite different sensibilities, so trying to extrapolate from the niche performance of the S to what the 3 will do is pretty much pointless.
 
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Do the details of Model 3 really matter?

Absofreakinglutely.

If the interior looks near identical to the reveal 1 car, Tesla won't sell many of these, and I may be one of those choosing to pass on a Tesla, too.

That's the only thing still TBD (everything else we know about the 3 I'm completely fine with). It's a pretty important aspect of any vehicle.

I would never have bought a Prius. I will never buy a Leaf or Bolt. They are ugly cars. Same idea applies to Tesla.

Elon has said the goal is to make COMPELLING vehicles.
 
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The details don't really matter to me at all as long as I can afford it, it can accelerate like nobody's business, and is as safe as they come. I, for one, like the spartan interior.

A flagship is a very limited market.
Technically Model 3 will be Tesla's flagship vehicle. It was the goal of the original master plan. It is the latest generation from Tesla using everything learned from the Roadster, S, and X. It'll have new power electronics redesigned from the ground up. It'll be their most efficient vehicle per mile. It is Tesla's crowning achievement after years of effort.
 
Yes, I would imagine that purchasers of a 100K car are a lot more demanding and picky than purchasers of a 35K car.
Greg, it would be a serious mistake (and I think a potentially fatal error) for Tesla to assume the buyers of its mid market and mid priced car will be less picky than the forgiving early adopters and fans who ponied up major bucks for a Roadster, S or X. Hope no one ever writes a business study about how Tesla blew it in this way.
Robin
 
Maybe so, but I'd suggest that the markets for a $100,000 Roadster, Model S or X are fundamentally different from the market for a $35,000-$40,000 Model 3. There is an obvious overlap, and that's where the first inrush of reservations came from. What happens after the initial unrush of reservations will make or break Tesla as a mass manufacturer of electric automobiles. IOW, after the product is released into a less forgiving environment. For example, what a Model S owner is currently going through to have his car repaired after a suspension failure (see in the Model S thread)- huge expense, endless delays and downtime- would be entirely unacceptable to the mass market. It would be pitchforks and torch time.
Tesla can avoid that, but not by pretending that every customer who walks into a store is on their side. As we, generally, are.
Robin
These are all points that Tesla is fully aware of, and have been aware of, for quite some time now. Not only because of their own internal due diligence, but also because Tesla Naysayers have brought up all the same points time and again, over and over, while insisting the whole while that it was 'impossible' for a niche manufacturer like Tesla to serve the populace at large since the very moment they became aware of the plan for Generation III vehicles. Not once have they recognized the progress Tesla has made as years have passed -- they instead choose to continually move the goalposts of what should be considered 'success' while simultaneously calling for Tesla's eminent DOOM.

This has all been discussed in detail for years already. It is not some mystery revelation that was hidden and only recently discovered. All of us are fully aware that Tesla will face challenges in convincing people their cars are 'worth it' compared to the feature sets of both 'regular' and 'luxury' cars.

The biggest of these issues must unfortunately be addressed by way of the courts. Once Tesla wins and is allowed to expand both their Sales and Service locations without restriction or limitation those foreseeable 'problems' will evaporate entirely. This isn't rocket surgery, solutions exist and will be employed. Chill.

rocketsurgerykelly_fullpic.jpg
 
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A flagship is a very limited market. It doesn't take much to be the market leader in that segment for a few years. What works for the flagship market rarely ever works for the bread and butter parts of the market. The customers in each segment have quite different sensibilities, so trying to extrapolate from the niche performance of the S to what the 3 will do is pretty much pointless.
I think the extrapolation is rather straightforward and easily relateable. Because the Model 3 will be facing the same primary competitors on the low end as Tesla currently demolishes on the high end. And, where the Model S led people who would not have considered going upmarket before to do so, much the same will happen with Model 3. Oh, and because those 'competitors' have no 'answer' for Model 3, just as they didn't (and still don't) for Model S. See? That was easy.

The Honda Accord is the flagship of that marque's product lineup. It is the perennial #2 in U.S. sales behind the Toyota Camry in its market segment. And those two cars outsell the BMW 7-Series by dozens-to-one each. The 7-Series used to be the perennial #2 to the Mercedes-Benz S-Class -- a pattern that similarly lasted DECADES, as has been the case with Accord and Camry -- not 'a few years'. Now the 7-Series is #3 year in and year out, though its sales improved in 2016 over 2015, it is still behind what the Model S managed in either 2013 or 2014.

Please note the Hyundai Sonata has been around perhaps 25+ years or so, and has been pretty much just as good as entry-level Accord and Camry for at least twenty of those years. But the Sonata has only just begun to appear in the top ten passenger vehicles sold in the U.S. on a regular basis since circa 2012 or so. During 2016 though, both Camry and Accord risked being toppled in sales totals by their respective stablemates, Corolla and Civic, in U.S. sales. The overlap in their price points, feature sets, and size (they are all considered Midsize by the EPA) made for some tight competition among them. My point is that a flagship vehicle need not be 'exclusive' or a poor seller nor a 'luxury' car unattainable by the masses.

There are trim levels for Accord, Camry, Malibu, and LaCrosse that exceed $30,000 and approach or exceed $35,000. Those are all better equipped than a bone stock BMW 320i that stickers for $33,450 -- heck, that car may not be as well appointed as a Camry LE at $23,070. That $10,000 markup for rear wheel drive and a German badge is a large part of why the BMW usually sells at over 100,000 units per year, while the Toyota usually clears 400,000 units with ease in the U.S.

But sales of both those perennial market segment leaders were off considerably during 2016. Industry ANALysts seem fond of claiming that sales loss was due to the popularity of Crossover/Compact SUVs (CR-V, RAV4, Rogue, and Escape) as compared to Sedans. That theory does hold some water. But not all of it. I suspect a large part of the decline in their sales has been in anticipation of the Model 3 arriving on the scene.

Yes, people on the lower end of the market will be more critical of physical feature sets. They want to get the most for their money. So they can be more easily distracted by shiny objects while also being overly critical of anything that appears to be 'missing' somehow. Someone buying a Caterham 7 or Lamborghini may not blink at the absence of coat hooks or bin storage, while someone comparing an Odyssey, Sierra, or Sedona may make their final decision on the quality of the vanity lighting, convenience of sunglass storage, or number of cupholders (3.5 per passenger, minimum).

But the Acura TLX, Alfa Romeo Giulia, AUDI A4, BMW 3-Series, Cadillac ATS, Infiniti Q50, Jaguar XE, Lexus IS, and Mercedes-Benz C-Class must all endure the same levels of competition. Two of those, XE and Giulia, just came out in the closing months of 2016 and no one comments about the field being somehow 'too crowded' for them to survive. Trust that neither of them will outsell the Model 3 -- ever.

BMW has said for decades that they build only one thing. The 3-Series is their representative vehicle for that 'one thing'. Problem is, since 2012 it has been proven time and again that BMW's pride and joy has been exposed as an also-ran in head-to-head competition with vehicles from other manufacturers. Other cars drive better, perform better, feel better -- both on the road and at the track. That includes the XE and Giulia. Soon it will include the Model 3 as well. No matter how much window dressing that BMW or other ICE manufacturers throw at the problem, it will not be enough to conceal the fact that the Model 3 will be better in all the ways that matter. And the warmth and comfort of SUV sales that traditional automobile manufacturers enjoy probably won't last long beyond the release of Model Y.
 
If the interior looks near identical to the reveal 1 car, Tesla won't sell many of these

Talk about declarative statements....

And I think Tesla would prove you wrong as well.

Elon has stated 3 days ago that the final production Model 3 would be "pretty close" to what we saw the reveal. So I don't think Tesla would give you what you wish.
The single screen will not deter most buyers, I think most people would grow to like it once they have test driven one (unlike surprising number of people here in the forum like yourself who are prepared to write it off without even test driving a single screen Model 3).
On the contrary, I think having "the largest display screen" in its price segment would actually be a selling point of the Model 3.
 
Talk about declarative statements....

And I think Tesla would prove you wrong as well.

Elon has stated 3 days ago that the final production Model 3 would be "pretty close" to what we saw the reveal. So I don't think Tesla would give you what you wish.
The single screen will not deter most buyers, I think most people would grow to like it once they have test driven one (unlike surprising number of people here in the forum like yourself who are prepared to write it off without even test driving a single screen Model 3).
On the contrary, I think having "the largest display screen" in its price segment would actually be a selling point of the Model 3.

He said it'd be similar, and he said it'd be different.

If you pretend you know what that means, you're lying. Period.
 
He said it'd be similar, and he said it'd be different.
If you pretend you know what that means, you're lying. Period.

Elon says something, and we all have our own interpretations.
He has not revealed much extra info about Model 3.

So I am writing what I believe, and you are writing what you believe - NO ONE IS LYING OR TRYING TO DECEIVE ANYONE!
This is what this forum is for, exchange of ideas and opinions.
 
"These are all points that Tesla is fully aware of, and have been aware of, for quite some time now."
Probably so. Again, I'd draw a wide line between knowing something, and doing something about it. Teen pregnancy, for example. And remember, Detroit "knew" that Americans would never buy foreign cars. Or electric cars. Or that Tesla couldn't possibly succeed. As Twain said, "It ain't what you don't know that'll get you in trouble. It's what you're sure of and just ain't so."
Along that line, Tesla "knows" people will buy their cars because a great many well-heeled early adopters have been doing just that. They seem to "know" that a single screen with a smorgasbord of data on it- an entire car's worth of performance, status, navigation and entertainment information- will be accepted because it seems like a great, economical engineering solution, and, well, they thought of it.
Reminds me a bit of this:
:
Multi-Use Tool.jpg

It all may work out fine, of course, and I hope it does. But engineering hubris has led the company astray in the recent past. It will be a very good thing if they've learned the right lessons from it.
Robin
 
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Do the details really matter? No.

I'm buying the whole package - a desirable EV with great performance and zero (or as close as I can get to it) reliance on fossil fuels. I'm pretty much blind to interior creature comforts, so unless the seats are made of unfinished pine planks I'll be fine with them. If I decide I don't like the speedo on the center screen, I'll buy an $80 GPS HUD from Amazon. Unless they build a completely different car than I've seen so far, I'm in.

Are there details I don't like? Sure - the nose has never grown on me (I'm planning on getting a set of vinyl Bugs Bunny teeth installed), and the interior that we've seen is remarkably stark - but that could grow on me. Eliminating useful knobs (volume, fan, temp, etc) for onscreen controls is a design trend I hate - but I suppose it's better than the "Formula 1" steering wheels with dozens of buttons with indecipherable icons that some of my recent rentals have had. Took me 30 miles to figure out how to enable the cruise control on the GMC Acadia I'm renting now.
 
I think the extrapolation is rather straightforward and easily relateable. Because the Model 3 will be facing the same primary competitors on the low end as Tesla currently demolishes on the high end. And, where the Model S led people who would not have considered going upmarket before to do so, much the same will happen with Model 3. Oh, and because those 'competitors' have no 'answer' for Model 3, just as they didn't (and still don't) for Model S. See? That was easy.

The Honda Accord is the flagship of that marque's product lineup. It is the perennial #2 in U.S. sales behind the Toyota Camry in its market segment. And those two cars outsell the BMW 7-Series by dozens-to-one each. The 7-Series used to be the perennial #2 to the Mercedes-Benz S-Class -- a pattern that similarly lasted DECADES, as has been the case with Accord and Camry -- not 'a few years'. Now the 7-Series is #3 year in and year out, though its sales improved in 2016 over 2015, it is still behind what the Model S managed in either 2013 or 2014.

Please note the Hyundai Sonata has been around perhaps 25+ years or so, and has been pretty much just as good as entry-level Accord and Camry for at least twenty of those years. But the Sonata has only just begun to appear in the top ten passenger vehicles sold in the U.S. on a regular basis since circa 2012 or so. During 2016 though, both Camry and Accord risked being toppled in sales totals by their respective stablemates, Corolla and Civic, in U.S. sales. The overlap in their price points, feature sets, and size (they are all considered Midsize by the EPA) made for some tight competition among them. My point is that a flagship vehicle need not be 'exclusive' or a poor seller nor a 'luxury' car unattainable by the masses.

There are trim levels for Accord, Camry, Malibu, and LaCrosse that exceed $30,000 and approach or exceed $35,000. Those are all better equipped than a bone stock BMW 320i that stickers for $33,450 -- heck, that car may not be as well appointed as a Camry LE at $23,070. That $10,000 markup for rear wheel drive and a German badge is a large part of why the BMW usually sells at over 100,000 units per year, while the Toyota usually clears 400,000 units with ease in the U.S.

But sales of both those perennial market segment leaders were off considerably during 2016. Industry ANALysts seem fond of claiming that sales loss was due to the popularity of Crossover/Compact SUVs (CR-V, RAV4, Rogue, and Escape) as compared to Sedans. That theory does hold some water. But not all of it. I suspect a large part of the decline in their sales has been in anticipation of the Model 3 arriving on the scene.

Yes, people on the lower end of the market will be more critical of physical feature sets. They want to get the most for their money. So they can be more easily distracted by shiny objects while also being overly critical of anything that appears to be 'missing' somehow. Someone buying a Caterham 7 or Lamborghini may not blink at the absence of coat hooks or bin storage, while someone comparing an Odyssey, Sierra, or Sedona may make their final decision on the quality of the vanity lighting, convenience of sunglass storage, or number of cupholders (3.5 per passenger, minimum).

But the Acura TLX, Alfa Romeo Giulia, AUDI A4, BMW 3-Series, Cadillac ATS, Infiniti Q50, Jaguar XE, Lexus IS, and Mercedes-Benz C-Class must all endure the same levels of competition. Two of those, XE and Giulia, just came out in the closing months of 2016 and no one comments about the field being somehow 'too crowded' for them to survive. Trust that neither of them will outsell the Model 3 -- ever.

BMW has said for decades that they build only one thing. The 3-Series is their representative vehicle for that 'one thing'. Problem is, since 2012 it has been proven time and again that BMW's pride and joy has been exposed as an also-ran in head-to-head competition with vehicles from other manufacturers. Other cars drive better, perform better, feel better -- both on the road and at the track. That includes the XE and Giulia. Soon it will include the Model 3 as well. No matter how much window dressing that BMW or other ICE manufacturers throw at the problem, it will not be enough to conceal the fact that the Model 3 will be better in all the ways that matter. And the warmth and comfort of SUV sales that traditional automobile manufacturers enjoy probably won't last long beyond the release of Model Y.

That's a lot of words to say "because I want it to be so".
 
Honestly there are some details that are make/break decisions for me.

1. The overall feeling of the interior I didn't like (the steering wheel helped some).
2. Cost of the options I want
3. Inability to have direct air flowing on me when I drive.
4. Value compared to the competition. (If I feel like I am paying way more because it is a Tesla vs an Audi A4 or XE)

Any of these could make me change my mind. I am still being positive. This is going to be the most I have ever spent for a car and if I feel like I can't live with it for 10 years and am only mildly satisfied I won't be buying.

I think part of the reason the Model S has sold so well is it truly is a beautiful car that doesn't stretch the concept of a normal car that much. I love the Model S because it still is stylish, the interior (even though it is spartan) still feels luxurious and has really cool info on both screens. It isn't jarring looking at the competition and then looking at the Model S. Honestly I know lots of people in my area that are now driving Model S instead of Range Rovers etc... because they really are good cars and they aren't lacking too much and more often they give you more than they lack.

When I compare a Bolt to something in the same price range it is a huge lack. It looks spartan, the interior looks hokey, and the outside is flat out ugly to me. If you are utilitarian you might like it but I honestly cannot spend 30k on that car compared to something else like a Honda Accord/Camry. The Accord/Camry just feels nicer for the same price. Same goes for the Leaf. I actually think the Volt looks pretty nice but it still feels like Honda Civic quality/lux for a cheap luxury car price. The tax credit helps with this but Tesla has to bet that their car can sell at the price point without a tax credit.

Now take the Model 3. If it is compelling and I think it competes with ICE cars at the same price point then I think it will do really well. To me the interior is lacking on this front but we'll see. Of course this is only my opinion.
 
...
When I compare a Bolt to something in the same price range it is a huge lack. It looks spartan, the interior looks hokey, and the outside is flat out ugly to me. If you are utilitarian you might like it but I honestly cannot spend 30k on that car compared to something else like a Honda Accord/Camry. The Accord/Camry just feels nicer for the same price. Same goes for the Leaf. I actually think the Volt looks pretty nice but it still feels like Honda Civic quality/lux for a cheap luxury car price. The tax credit helps with this but Tesla has to bet that their car can sell at the price point without a tax credit.

Now take the Model 3. If it is compelling and I think it competes with ICE cars at the same price point then I think it will do really well. To me the interior is lacking on this front but we'll see. Of course this is only my opinion.

Have you driven an EV for a month yet?

If not, you are not understanding the major reason to buy an EV. It has NOTHING to do with saving the Blunt Nosed Lizard, and everything to do with what a car should and should not do.

  • Should a car run when it's stopped? Of course not, it's stopped.
  • Should a car have to rev up to make full power? Of course not, eng'g exists that allows full power everywhere.
  • Should you have to stop on your way to work to make sure you can reach work? Of course not. Cars don't need to anymore. They refill while you sleep today.
  • Should there be lag in the accelerator response? Of course not. Unnecessary today.
  • Should a car make funny smells and irritating noises or vibrations? Of course not. That has been solved.
  • Should a car pollute the inner cities? Of course not. It is no longer necessary.
  • Should a car burn up metal and friction materials to stop? Not only is it not necessary to do that, you can actually recover the energy instead.
  • Should you have to check your oil and change it constantly? No, we have better bearings today.

Now, when you find an Audi or Honda or Toyota or BMW ICE car that can do those, then compare.

A Civic or Camry is an appliance for people who do not like driving. But even worse, they are obsolete technology on top of it. Yeah they are cheaper. So is a NTSC TV or a 720p cheaper than a 1080p or 4k TV. They all do the same thing, so why bother getting the good stuff?