Early Access and NDA overflow from 2018.41 thread

[SpudLime]

You continue to prove your ignorance of the topic. People in EAP are notified they are included. They neither apply, nor in any way agree to any terms on involvement. In addition the email notification simply requests you don’t post your experiences. It is a request, and in no way binding. Of course as capriciously as you are included you can be excluded by Tesla but there is never any agreement to any parficipation terms as you imply and surely no pro forma NDA as you try to keep referencing.

Reading comprehension must be an issue with you.
Here is what you agree to in part when becoming a part of the program: (emphasis mine)

"Before signing up, please review the following program rules:

• You must agree to keep your experiences in the program confidential.
• You may not share any information about this program with the public-e.g. posting on any forums, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Reddit, etc.
• You may not use any third party apps that access data from your vehicle-e.g. TeslaFi, ev-fw.com, etc."

You guys certainly try very hard to ignore the fact that you agreed to keep the early stuff confidential. Either you have some sort of integrity and can be trusted or you do not. I think we know the answer.

 

[SpudLime]

It’s not sensorship, nothing has been deleted. Just moved to another thread for continued discussion and debate. It was the right call.

Most people go to the V9 thread to see what people’s thoughts are on the new features. Most don’t care to have an ethical debate on the NDA. For the small group of vocal members better to duke it out in a different thread. Makes perfect sense, it’s not censorship.

Fair point but how would one do that in a forum as an example? Wait for the MOD to create it? Or create a new thread for every new thread/post when someone posts something from the EA program in the off topic section?

 

[bmah]

Ok so if more EA program posts show up in the firmware section, I cant post that I disapprove of doing so?

Look, that one post kicked off an 11-post digression on NDAs and the early access program that is clearly off-topic for a firmware thread. That's too much.

How about I just post the bullet list of the agreement to remind folks and not say anything else?

There is not a cut-and-dried answer to that. It depends on where the thread goes afterwards.

Because if you censor posts out voicing displeasure of folks doing that, its a bit unfair. If you disagree, then so be it.

That's not censorship. I didn't remove your posts nor did I prevent you from making new ones. (Although note that admins and moderators have the right to do either one.)

As any parent (including me) will tell you, life's not always fair.

I'm not going to waste anymore of my totally unpaid time debating this. Other moderators are welcome to chime if they want.

Bruce.

 

[SpudLime]

@bmah My intention was to do nothing more than to understand what the rules are. I dont intend to make you do MORE work for a thankless volunteer job. Obviously the world is unfair. Just wondering if it was going to stay that way or not.

Censorship may be too brash of a word. Restriction? It was just odd and seemed that an opinion of folks simply not giving a crap about TESLA's request couldnt be voiced.

My apologies to you for being difficult.

 

[NewTMSMan]

Reading comprehension must be an issue with you.
Here is what you agree to in part when becoming a part of the program: (emphasis mine)

"Before signing up, please review the following program rules:

• You must agree to keep your experiences in the program confidential.
• You may not share any information about this program with the public-e.g. posting on any forums, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Reddit, etc.
• You may not use any third party apps that access data from your vehicle-e.g. TeslaFi, ev-fw.com, etc."

You guys certainly try very hard to ignore the fact that you agreed to keep the early stuff confidential. Either you have some sort of integrity and can be trusted or you do not. I think we know the answer.

and if you were an actual participant you would find that you never agree to those terms when you click the enroll button. It does say you "must" agree, but never in the process does it say, by signing / clicking / joining you are agreeing to the following terms... Therefore, although they communicate their rules, they never ask for contractual compliance.

So reading comprehension is not an issue for me, but possibly for you? I treat contract terms and agreements the same way Tesla does with a very loose application of any implied agreement which is why 10 weeks after delivery I still don't have the spoiler and badging for my $80k Model 3P, and one year after delivery of 2 referral cars I still do not have my HPWC or my Powerwall, so forgive me if I do not get too upset about Tesla's implied contract terms, I treat them the same way Tesla does.

As an aside, there is a line you left off the above, which is the supposed penalty for non-compliance, which is:

• If we determine you have shared information or violated these terms, you will be removed from this program.

so if Tesla has issues with people posting about V9 I am sure they can take care of themselves and don't need you White Knighting as an amateur attorney.

 

[SpudLime]

Folks like you are why need to have thousands of laws created for every scenario that comes up. When other folks with a moral compass and understand the merit of the request and dont need them.

Keep arguing that you arent contractually bound to anything. Nothing will change the fact that they asked you not to do it to be a part of a select program. Instead you do what you want regardless. There is one side of the coin where respect, politeness, and a society of common sense, then there is your side.

 

[NewTMSMan]

Folks like you are why need to have thousands of laws created for every scenario that comes up. When other folks with a moral compass and understand the merit of the request and dont need them.

Keep arguing that you arent contractually bound to anything. Nothing will change the fact that they asked you not to do it to be a part of a select program. Instead you do what you want regardless. There is one side of the coin where respect, politeness, and a society of common sense, then there is your side.

LOL what a clown. Can't win an argument on merit, so I guess you will now claim some fictitious moral high ground.

I am not arguing at all, I am presenting facts. Something I am guessing you are not very familiar with as it seems you want to interpret the world around you according to your own personal, made up perspective. You are actually the reason we need laws and contracts so we don't have someone claiming they have moral authority telling others how to act and behave. You have no standing in this debate either morally nor from a legal perspective, you are not harmed in any way, yet you persist when proven wrong again and again.

Tilt on Don Quixote.... I personally am going to leave you in your own private thread to rant on in to the abyss....

 

[SpudLime]

Okay last word champion.

 

[BurntOC]

Okay last word champion.

Does that mean you're done?

 

[Bladerskb]

LOL what a clown. Can't win an argument on merit, so I guess you will now claim some fictitious moral high ground.

I am not arguing at all, I am presenting facts. Something I am guessing you are not very familiar with as it seems you want to interpret the world around you according to your own personal, made up perspective. You are actually the reason we need laws and contracts so we don't have someone claiming they have moral authority telling others how to act and behave. You have no standing in this debate either morally nor from a legal perspective, you are not harmed in any way, yet you persist when proven wrong again and again.

Tilt on Don Quixote.... I personally am going to leave you in your own private thread to rant on in to the abyss....

Okay last word champion.

 

[boonedocks]

Does that mean you're done?

Did you mean done or “well baked”

 

[MikeBur]

Wow... sorry @bmah, and other mods...

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I love the fact that no one seems to have any honor anymore.

Like let's forget about NDA's, contracts, or whether the language is binding. People are knowing ignoring the rules of the EAP. The really funny ones are the ones that are coming up with excuses to ignore the rules.

Excuses like "never in the process does it say this exact wording that I've come to expect" as if somehow they would follow it if the wording matched exactly. Or the excuse that somehow it was okay because Tesla failed to deliver something they promised him.

I would respect the person more if they simply said "I'm ignoring the rules since I matter more than whatever the concern was regarding the rules". At least that would be an honest answer.

Sure I ignore rules all the time because our society has crazy rules that make no sense at all. Part of life is figuring out which rules make sense, and which rules don't.

I don't think it takes a genius to know why Tesla doesn't want people blabbering on about some early access issue. The reason is you can give a very bad impression of a feature before Tesla has the chance to fix it.

Is that really fair to the Engineers that are working on it?

You're given this opportunity that you don't have to take, and then you turn around and disrespect the trust they placed in you.

Now I could understand if you broke the rules for some important reason. Like emails you sent to Tesla that they ignored, and they released something really dangerous.

But, that's not what's actually happening.

What's happening is some of you are so addicted to social media, and attention that it means more to you than what was asked of you. I can't say I'm that different because I'd have a hard time resisting. I'd have to choose between talking freely on social media about the car/firmware or missing out on the ability to try something before other people.

What I think is really funny is some of you are such newbies that you couldn't figure out that some of the people egging you on to release information were people extremely biased against Tesla.

Like how I did I even find this thread? I did because I went to look for a negative comment about Drive-On-Nav that was posted elsewhere outside of context by someone who constantly tries to crap on Tesla's AP program.

So you gave this person ammo to attack Tesla to the point that he was salivating at the opportunity like some vicious animal. Of course he used the negative ones, and conveniently left out the positive ones since he always has to focus on the negative.

The biggest issue was there wasn't much to go off of. You can't release too much actual information or you risk losing access. So all you really do is share a little that doesn't really tell much of a story.

I do wish Tesla would change the EAP to allow people to talk more freely, and in fact I think Tesla should encourage it. That way everything could be put on the table, and not just tiny bits here and there. Plus Tesla has recently made EAP as something you can get if you have enough referrals. So it's probably time for the program to change to match the new reality of how it's used.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

In my almost four years on this forum, I have not once seen anyone in the EAP openly post to this forum. In fact, they took their agreement to remain confidential so seriously that I had trouble believing the EAP program even existed.

Now, with this new crop of EAP members, so many are posting here. So you can't claim it is unreasonable or impractical not to post this information; others have remained quiet for years. And the net effect is that Tesla will likely resist expanding or shrink the EAP program in the future, which hurts both Tesla by slowing feedback on their development, and those who are in or wish to be in the program.

 

[PaulJohn]

In my almost four years on this forum, I have not once seen anyone in the EAP openly post to this forum. In fact, they took their agreement to remain confidential so seriously that I had trouble believing the EAP program even existed.

Now, with this new crop of EAP members, so many are posting here. So you can't claim it is unreasonable or impractical not to post this information; others have remained quiet for years. And the net effect is that Tesla will likely resist expanding or shrink the EAP program in the future, which hurts both Tesla by slowing feedback on their development, and those who are in or wish to be in the program.

Perhaps the new wave of EAP members come from the new referral program (5+ referrals grants you access to early updates) and this way people will be more motivated to get the 5+ referrals

 

[NewTMSMan]

If Tesla was so worried about this they would use a real NDA and you would have to sign it to participate like other companies. Should be easy for them if they wanted to do it, all the docs to buy the car are digital and they used to use Docusign. They actually chose a much weaker set of "rules" for participation and I think this is on purpose as it gives them much more flexibility in how they manage posts about new features.

My personal view is that Tesla likes all the social media they get as most of the EAP participants are fans posting good experience and the rest of the community cannot wait to read posts about new features, watch the traffic the hackers get on their posts. Tesla famously does not advertise, their owners social media postings are even more valuable to them. Ever wonder why they don't shut the hackers down entirely? Would be easy if they actually wanted to.

 

[Bladerskb]

I love the fact that no one seems to have any honor anymore.

Like let's forget about NDA's, contracts, or whether the language is binding. People are knowing ignoring the rules of the EAP. The really funny ones are the ones that are coming up with excuses to ignore the rules.

Excuses like "never in the process does it say this exact wording that I've come to expect" as if somehow they would follow it if the wording matched exactly. Or the excuse that somehow it was okay because Tesla failed to deliver something they promised him.

I would respect the person more if they simply said "I'm ignoring the rules since I matter more than whatever the concern was regarding the rules". At least that would be an honest answer.

Sure I ignore rules all the time because our society has crazy rules that make no sense at all. Part of life is figuring out which rules make sense, and which rules don't.

I don't think it takes a genius to know why Tesla doesn't want people blabbering on about some early access issue. The reason is you can give a very bad impression of a feature before Tesla has the chance to fix it.

Is that really fair to the Engineers that are working on it?

You're given this opportunity that you don't have to take, and then you turn around and disrespect the trust they placed in you.

Now I could understand if you broke the rules for some important reason. Like emails you sent to Tesla that they ignored, and they released something really dangerous.

But, that's not what's actually happening.

What's happening is some of you are so addicted to social media, and attention that it means more to you than what was asked of you. I can't say I'm that different because I'd have a hard time resisting. I'd have to choose between talking freely on social media about the car/firmware or missing out on the ability to try something before other people.

What I think is really funny is some of you are such newbies that you couldn't figure out that some of the people egging you on to release information were people extremely biased against Tesla.

Like how I did I even find this thread? I did because I went to look for a negative comment about Drive-On-Nav that was posted elsewhere outside of context by someone who constantly tries to crap on Tesla's AP program.

So you gave this person ammo to attack Tesla to the point that he was salivating at the opportunity like some vicious animal. Of course he used the negative ones, and conveniently left out the positive ones since he always has to focus on the negative.

The biggest issue was there wasn't much to go off of. You can't release too much actual information or you risk losing access. So all you really do is share a little that doesn't really tell much of a story.

I do wish Tesla would change the EAP to allow people to talk more freely, and in fact I think Tesla should encourage it. That way everything could be put on the table, and not just tiny bits here and there. Plus Tesla has recently made EAP as something you can get if you have enough referrals. So it's probably time for the program to change to match the new reality of how it's used.

The pot calling the kettle black?
You came from a worse thread of hackers that are breaking hundreds of rules that are potentially illegal with actual legal ramifications and could easily be sued by Tesla for dozens of reasons if they wanted. To complain about people talking about the existence of a software update that will show up in public not even 1-2 weeks from now? Not like they are testing something 6-12 months in advance?

That's hilarious!

(Just so you know. I fully believe you should be able to reverse engineer and publish info on any device you own. But as we have seen from previous legal battles *cough* sony. The legal ground is muddy. It took a long time for phones, tablets, tv to be dmca exempt, some form of hacking is now allowed for cars. But If a company wants to get you they will. )

TLDR: PS You cant participate in hacker threads that are sharing information and then condemn eap members for sharing Info.

 

[SpudLime]

I love the fact that no one seems to have any honor anymore.

Like let's forget about NDA's, contracts, or whether the language is binding. People are knowing ignoring the rules of the EAP. The really funny ones are the ones that are coming up with excuses to ignore the rules.

Excuses like "never in the process does it say this exact wording that I've come to expect" as if somehow they would follow it if the wording matched exactly. Or the excuse that somehow it was okay because Tesla failed to deliver something they promised him.

I would respect the person more if they simply said "I'm ignoring the rules since I matter more than whatever the concern was regarding the rules". At least that would be an honest answer.

Sure I ignore rules all the time because our society has crazy rules that make no sense at all. Part of life is figuring out which rules make sense, and which rules don't.

I don't think it takes a genius to know why Tesla doesn't want people blabbering on about some early access issue. The reason is you can give a very bad impression of a feature before Tesla has the chance to fix it.

Is that really fair to the Engineers that are working on it?

You're given this opportunity that you don't have to take, and then you turn around and disrespect the trust they placed in you.

Now I could understand if you broke the rules for some important reason. Like emails you sent to Tesla that they ignored, and they released something really dangerous.

But, that's not what's actually happening.

What's happening is some of you are so addicted to social media, and attention that it means more to you than what was asked of you. I can't say I'm that different because I'd have a hard time resisting. I'd have to choose between talking freely on social media about the car/firmware or missing out on the ability to try something before other people.

What I think is really funny is some of you are such newbies that you couldn't figure out that some of the people egging you on to release information were people extremely biased against Tesla.

Like how I did I even find this thread? I did because I went to look for a negative comment about Drive-On-Nav that was posted elsewhere outside of context by someone who constantly tries to crap on Tesla's AP program.

So you gave this person ammo to attack Tesla to the point that he was salivating at the opportunity like some vicious animal. Of course he used the negative ones, and conveniently left out the positive ones since he always has to focus on the negative.

The biggest issue was there wasn't much to go off of. You can't release too much actual information or you risk losing access. So all you really do is share a little that doesn't really tell much of a story.

I do wish Tesla would change the EAP to allow people to talk more freely, and in fact I think Tesla should encourage it. That way everything could be put on the table, and not just tiny bits here and there. Plus Tesla has recently made EAP as something you can get if you have enough referrals. So it's probably time for the program to change to match the new reality of how it's used.

This was pretty much what my next response was going to be. But then I decided that it wasn't going to matter. The new crop of EA Program folks that are posting here really dont give a F... Its obvious by the replies even in this thread, so its going on deaf ears.
There is no integrity, no honor, no hand shake and taking your word for it. This is the society now.

The reason I am bothered by this is due personal history. The short version is that I wrote an app 5 years ago. I got a number of folks to help beta test. I didn't do an official NDA. Bit naive I guess, but I had a request very similar to what Tesla is asking. I had about 150 beta testers. I was just out of the framework stage and had some modules for folks to test. I got feedback and went back to my hole for a few months. I then did it again, rinse repeat. After 6 months I was at a point where I thought I had something. As I was getting close to a CR, low and behold a larger well established company released an app that was near identical to mine. I had an idea of how that company got it, but didnt have enough proof. They had a large team and punched it out and made decent money based on the reviews and feedback. I lost 6 months of my life and could have had something to supplement my income and it was damn fun. My fault for not having much legal recourse. But still burns me.

Tesla is working on software that seriously affects life and death with their software. The EA program is the outer layer to help ensure people stay safe as well as have cool stuff to play with. the IDGAF crowd is just sad.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

The pot calling the kettle black?
You came from a worse thread of hackers that are breaking hundreds of rules that are potentially illegal with actual legal ramifications and could easily be sued by Tesla for dozens of reasons if they wanted. To complain about people talking about the existence of a software update that will show up in public not even 1-2 weeks from now? Not like they are testing something 6-12 months in advance?

That's hilarious!

(Just so you know. I fully believe you should be able to reverse engineer and publish info on any device you own. But as we have seen from previous legal battles *cough* sony. The legal ground is muddy. It took a long time for phones, tablets, tv to be dmca exempt, some form of hacking is now allowed for cars. But If a company wants to get you they will. )

TLDR: PS You cant participate in hacker threads that are sharing information and then condemn eap members for sharing Info.

You're asking how I can be pro-hacking, and an advocate for the right to repair while at the same time opposing people who violate an at will agreement which they should feel privileged to take part of?

If you paid attention to my post I clearly said that part of life was figuring out which rules to follow and which rules to break.

My personal view is the hackers in the thread you were referring to were doing a great service to both myself, and you. Where they provided videos, and an explanation of what they found. They were perfectly forthcoming with what they found with both positive things, and negative things. We also knew that whatever they did find was likely a work in progress. That no absolute conclusion could be formed. In some ways they were fulfilling a need a customer like myself has that Tesla has failed to do. To see the progress of something I paid for.

I also see hacking as a requirement to maintain access to something we PAID for. There are entire threads about this, and discussions about it. So obviously I'm going to be biased in favor of them out of self-interest. The hackers also have legal protections in what they're doing like you yourself stated. So I don't see any harm in what they're doing. This might change as more and more FSD features come out. There might be a time where the hackers are going to violate laws regarding testing autonomous vehicles. Where they might put other people in danger by their actions. I don't think one can sign up to be an autonomous safety driver by saying you're a Tesla hacker.

With early access people I see them as violating an agreement without doing any public good in doing so.

It won't until Tesla allows early access people to be more forthcoming. That way we get a complete picture, and not just a few things here and there. The discussions would also be a lot more lively. If it wasn't for you I would have missed the thread completely because it wasn't that popular when there is only a few people willing to dispense a tiny bit of into.

 

[NewTMSMan]

If you paid attention to my post I clearly said that part of life was figuring out which rules to follow and which rules to break.

So.... in your world you are the sole determinant of which rules should be followed and which shouldn't and only those subscribing to your personal code of ethics are "honorable" and serving a greater cause, and those not subscribing are not "honorable" especially if in your view they are not "serving the public good" as defined by you. Hmmm.....

Do you need special shoes to dance the razors edge of your ethical tightrope?