Engineered durability ?

[eisbock]

Mercedes has not been known to have good reliability for MANY years and the S-Class is usually below to much below average. People here seem to like to compare reliability to BMW and Mercedes, neither of which have good reliability. Audi is also a frequent comparison, but (IIRC), they've improved from spotty to ok now.

I have no interest in buying from any of the above 3 brands due unless it's a model w/consistently average or better reliability across most (or better yet, all) model years.

The thing with a lot of these luxury brands is the "reliability" can be misleading. The core components of the car and what makes it a car are rock solid. It's unlikely the engine will fall out of the car at highway speeds or you'll be otherwise stranded.

The reliability of the luxury components is garbage because with the more high tech crap you jam into a car, the more likely something is gonna go wrong. Technology and software is much less reliable by nature. Just look at your computer compared to the engine on your car. Having to reboot your car every week or suffering through freezes where everything shuts down for 10 seconds just doesn't happen on driving components.

Sure, the car can be considered "unreliable" if the touchscreen is known to fail, but when you opt for cutting edge tech, there are risks involved. That's why nearly every luxury car has horrible reliability ratings. But, the car will still function as a car and get you from point A to point B reliably and after all, that's the whole point of a car. Saying the S-class has much lower reliability ratings than a Corolla simply because a Corolla doesn't have all the luxury features the MB has can be misleading. If all the tech on a MB fails, you're left with a Corolla, but the Corolla will be lauded and the MB criticized.

Obviously this is a bit of an oversimplification, but it always grinds my gears when people blast luxury brands for poor reliability. The more neat stuff you have in a vehicle, the more likely something is going to go wrong. It all depends on what your definition of "reliable" is too; if for some reason you consider a working touchscreen more important than your engine not catching fire on the highway, then sure, maybe luxury cars are unreliable. I also agree that some degree of reliability of the luxury stuff is expected too, and some manufacturers do the tech side of things better than others.

It's almost like "reliability" should be broken down into different areas and given separate ratings based on the category each feature falls under. It seems a little ridiculous to give a car "exceedingly low" reliability ratings when the only things that are unreliable are the climate controls, heated seats, touchscreen, nav system, fit & finish, audio, automatic trunk-opening, etc. Most importantly, the car should reliably get me from A to B and as such, drive component reliability should be weighted much higher or rated separately.

 

[Red Sage]

It's almost like "reliability" should be broken down into different areas and given separate ratings based on the category each feature falls under. It seems a little ridiculous to give a car "exceedingly low" reliability ratings when the only things that are unreliable are the climate controls, heated seats, touchscreen, nav system, fit & finish, audio, automatic trunk-opening, etc. Most importantly, the car should reliably get me from A to B and as such, drive component reliability should be weighted much higher or rated separately.

Agreed.

 

[Red Sage]

Eventually will only happen if they do it before they die. Not sure if there's a precedent for Japan giving hand-outs to car companies like the US does.

It is precisely because the government of Japan and the Great State of California both decided to support Hydrogen Fuel Cell initiatives that Toyota went with the Mirai instead of continuing electric vehicle programs. I fear Honda may announce a similar program for supporting HFCEVs too, as they recently cancelled their CR-Z Hybrid and aren't doing so well with the Insight Plug-In Hybrid either...

They led the pack in hybrids, so I don't understand where the roadblock is with making a bigger battery with faster charging, a higher-wattage motor, and a beefier inverter to make it possible to ditch the ICE entirely.

There was a report that the Japanese, being on an island, have never had large oil reserves. But they do have access to quite a bit of Methane, natural gas, and may want to explore stripping Hydrogen from that in order to become more energy independent. Seems rather silly to me, even worse than the shale oil fracking business, but such is life.

The biggest roadblock to doing the obvious thing, and going with electric vehicles is that it means admitting defeat. That is, a defeat for all those who thought that any transition to fully electric vehicles would happen either beyond their lifetime, or certainly long after they retired with many more decades of ICE propagation under their belts. The really juicy executive positions for guys who 'work their way up' usually go to those guys who have worked on engine design and proven their metal by being in those fires. No one wants to give all that power up in favor of some software geeks and electrical engineers. And at the same time, no one wants to farm out all their electric motor design to someone else while their company just becomes nothing more than a collection of assembly plants. Because for every major automotive OEM, the one thing that makes them truly special, separate from all the rest, is their engine design. That is what they are most proud of. Believe it.

 

[dsvick]

I hope Tesla will strive for Toyota level durability. Eventually Toyota is going to wake up and start making EV's.

Depending on how it looked I'd certainly consider a Toyota BEV. My last three vehicles have all been Toyotas. Two 4Runners each with well over 200,000 miles on them and now a Corolla with over 140,000. An electric car from Toyota would probably run until the body disintegrated. But, they aren't making one, maybe in 8 or 9 years when my M3 is 7 or 8 years old I'll have the option of looking at a Toyota.

 

[jaguar36]

Rattling, clunking, jerking, bounding, bouncing, clanking, smoking, whistling, screaming, straining, and stopping drivetrain... Those are signs of poor quality and soon-to-come demise in my book. And those are all far more likely to take place with an ICE vehicle at some point during its 'lifetime' than any EV.

What about all the rattling, clunking and clanking that Tesla Drive units make just before they are replaced? The simplicity of an electric driv train has been much touted, however in practice, the Tesla drivetrain fails more frequently than most ICEs.

 

[int32_t]

What about all the rattling, clunking and clanking that Tesla Drive units make just before they are replaced? The simplicity of an electric drive train has been much touted, however in practice, the Tesla drivetrain fails more frequently than most ICEs.

Except not anymore. The issue has been solved. Mechanically speaking, an electric powertrain is indeed much simpler, but I think the insane torque from zero RPM wasn't helping the bearings at all, and they've figured out how to make it all work now.

If your ICE "failed," would you notice? If you apply the same thinking to an ICE, it would start making "another noise." Chances are you wouldn't hear that noise above all the normal clanking that goes on. For the majority of drive units that "failed" (like 99.9% of the so-called failures), they never actually stopped working. Sure they were making abnormal noises and that's not a good thing, but the whole drivetrain wasn't the issue. It is far simpler to swap out the whole motor/inverter/gearbox/axle in a Tesla than it is to swap out the ICE/alternator/<... etc ...>gearbox in an ICE-powered vehicle, so that's what they did. That doesn't constitute failure. It is a drive unit swap in place of swapping the actual part that was wearing prematurely but had not failed yet.

 

[Red Sage]

Except not anymore. The issue has been solved. Mechanically speaking, an electric powertrain is indeed much simpler, but I think the insane torque from zero RPM wasn't helping the bearings at all, and they've figured out how to make it all work now.

If your ICE "failed," would you notice? If you apply the same thinking to an ICE, it would start making "another noise." Chances are you wouldn't hear that noise above all the normal clanking that goes on. For the majority of drive units that "failed" (like 99.9% of the so-called failures), they never actually stopped working. Sure they were making abnormal noises and that's not a good thing, but the whole drivetrain wasn't the issue. It is far simpler to swap out the whole motor/inverter/gearbox/axle in a Tesla than it is to swap out the ICE/alternator/<... etc ...>gearbox in an ICE-powered vehicle, so that's what they did. That doesn't constitute failure. It is a drive unit swap in place of swapping the actual part that was wearing prematurely but had not failed yet.

+42! Precisely! The Ultimate Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything about "What Should We Tell People Who Bring Up Old News Regarding Tesla Reliability?" Thank you.

When I was a kid, my Mom's old cars never actually STOPPED on her to my knowledge... The Chevrolet Monte Carlo and Mercury Grand Marquis both did a whole bunch of 'rattling, clunking, jerking, bounding, bouncing, clanking, smoking, whistling, screaming, straining' and more on their way to the grave. It was astounding what she had to do just to get those suckers to turn over and keep running afterward.

 

[dsvick]

It was astounding what she had to do just to get those suckers to turn over and keep running afterward.

I still have some horrible memories of having to lay down on the ground to beat my old Buick's starter with a hammer just to get it to turn over.

 

[Red Sage]

I still have some horrible memories of having to lay down on the ground to beat my old Buick's starter with a hammer just to get it to turn over.

My Friends, whose first cars had been Mazdas, Fords, and Volkswagens, all looked at me as if I was 'spoiled' by my first car being a Honda. They felt that the best way to appreciate a car was to be saddled with a hunk-o-junk for a while during your youth. A couple of them vowed that their own Children would all own Volkswagen Bugs as their first ride.

When my Buddy Yaboo Sensei borrowed my Honda for a while, he said as much upon returning it -- that I was 'spoiled'. I laughed, because I did the spoiling to myself, and felt it was worth it, and that I had earned it after years of riding the bus. He was just fascinated by the idea of getting into a car, turning the key -- and it worked. No muss, no fuss, no checking under the hood, fiddling with things, begging, pleading, praying that the car would start. Just, get in... and GO! As long as I can depend on a car to do that? I am satisfactorily settled that it is indeed 'reliable' and meets my 'quality' concerns, sans 'luxury', of course.

 

[NoPetrolDream]

I well remember going out to my early cars on a cold morning and wondering if they would start before the battery was drained from the attempt. Get in, pump the accelerator a few times, twist the key, and listen to the starter motor reluctantly turn over the engine. A high point of the entire trip would be if the engine caught early on vs. near the end of the battery's endurance.

When I bought a Nissan truck new in '83 I was amazed how it would almost always start on the first attempt, and quickly. It was almost euphoric as compared to multiple proddings with my prior cars; it became a benchmark for how I determined a vehicle of mine to be "reliable". Other benchmarks set by that truck is that I no longer felt a need to carry a set of tools with me in case of breakdowns on the road.

 

[mspohr]

An interesting data point is the Tesloop S85D which has racked up 200,000 miles in one year. It is charged to 100% every day and the battery is down only 6%. Only maintenance cost has been tires.

 

[eisbock]

I still have some horrible memories of having to lay down on the ground to beat my old Buick's starter with a hammer just to get it to turn over.

Hey, I still do this with my Camry every day! Except I have the great fortune of the starter being somewhat easily accessible under the hood.

I've found that if you just turn the key rapidly back and forth a couple dozen times, eventually the starter catches on and saves me a trip outside the car with my trusty trailer hitch in hand (it was the heaviest hammer-like thing I had at the time and now it's my good luck charm).

Every day my car starts, I count it as a victory. It's the small things in life, ya know?

(I really should replace the starter...)

In fact, I actually wonder how push-to-start cars deal with starter issues. I have to baby the crap out of my car and vary key pressure, duration, timing, speed, etc. and really listen to the car to provide it with the best starting experience possible. You can't do that if your car starts with the push of a button.

 

[Red Sage]

In fact, I actually wonder how push-to-start cars deal with starter issues. I have to baby the crap out of my car and vary key pressure, duration, timing, speed, etc. and really listen to the car to provide it with the best starting experience possible. You can't do that if your car starts with the push of a button.

Oh. I'm sorry... I thought you were speaking of my Buddies' numerous accounts of push-the-CAR-to-start experiences with Volkswagen products of lore.

 

[cwerdna]

An interesting data point is the Tesloop S85D which has racked up 200,000 miles in one year. It is charged to 100% every day and the battery is down only 6%. Only maintenance cost has been tires.

Yeah, but their front drive unit was also replaced at 35K miles.

I'd actually like to see more details on what repairs/work were needed beyond the scant details at Blog
"P.S. after getting back the invoice, I see that Tesla Service also: Discovered a minor air leak in a door at high speeds. Fixed the handle and mounting of the door handle causing this. Replaced the front facing camera. Serviced the radar. Performed a front end alignment. Washed the car. Delivered the car back to us and took back their loaner. All at no cost."

 

[S'toon]

Hey, I still do this with my Camry every day! Except I have the great fortune of the starter being somewhat easily accessible under the hood.

I've found that if you just turn the key rapidly back and forth a couple dozen times, eventually the starter catches on and saves me a trip outside the car with my trusty trailer hitch in hand (it was the heaviest hammer-like thing I had at the time and now it's my good luck charm).

Every day my car starts, I count it as a victory. It's the small things in life, ya know?

(I really should replace the starter...)

In fact, I actually wonder how push-to-start cars deal with starter issues. I have to baby the crap out of my car and vary key pressure, duration, timing, speed, etc. and really listen to the car to provide it with the best starting experience possible. You can't do that if your car starts with the push of a button.

To be fair, push button vehicles have been around for decades. Going back to at least the '40s. Military vehicles are all push button start, so anyone can just jump in and drive off, instead of that guy with the keys who just got shot.