EV Incentives

[Lloyd]

The 90C rating is common. I bought 500 ft roll #6 thnn at home depot for < $250.

 

[PaulM]

You're right, I just checked my wire and it is labeled 300v - 90C, which means I'm good for 95A. Cool.

To get back on topic. In Canada, as far as I know, only two provinces offer any incentives.
Ontario: $8,500 rebate at purchase, I believe Tesla applies for it for you
Quebec: $8,000 tax credit

Nothing from the federal government.

 

[Doug_G]

To get back on topic. In Canada, as far as I know, only two provinces offer any incentives.
Ontario: $8,500 rebate at purchase, I believe Tesla applies for it for you

Yes, Tesla deducts it from your bill and applies to the government for the rebate.

 

[TEG]

Increase proposed to $9,500 Electric Car Tax Credit

 

[dsm363]

Increase proposed to $9,500 Electric Car Tax Credit

While this sounds great, and I was happy to get the $7,500 tax credit, I think the money should be put into building the charging infrastructure first. We especially need charging between cities, maybe fast charging stations at every rest stop on the major Interstate highway system. If people buy electric cars and then are frustrated by not being able to charge easily when they travel, that does more harm than good in my opinion.

 

[TEG]

PIA newsletter excerpt:

...

Legislative Update

Plug In America’s legislative team, which has helped shape some of the country’s most EV-friendly public policy, has been following several new bills and EV incentives-in-the-making. Led by board member/Legislative Director Jay Friedland, the team has been meeting with lawmakers’ staffs to keep momentum moving in the right direction. These issues are expected to come to a head this summer. Stay tuned. When the time is right, we’ll ask our members to ask their representatives to show support for these crucial measures.

Here’s what’s up:

In the U.S. Senate:
Charging America Forward Act, S298, Sen. Debbie Stabinow (D-Mich.): Would raise from 200,000 to 500,000 the number of EVs eligible to receive the existing $7,500 tax credit. Also converts the tax credit into a rebate, similar to that in the Cash for Clunkers program.

In the U.S. House of Representatives:
Electric Drive Vehicle Deployment Act of 2011, HR 1685: A bipartisan effort driven by the Electrification Coalition to create 10 geographic regions across the U. S. which would receive increased support for EV infrastructure ($300 million per region) and boost the $7,500 EV credit for to $9,500 for the first additional 500,000 drivers.

Also just introduced in the House is another bipartisan bill, the Open Fuel Standard Act, which would require that 50 percent of new automobiles in 2014, 80 percent in 2016 and 95 percent in 2017 be warranted to operate on nonpetroleum fuels in addition to or instead of petroleum-based fuels. Electricity is one of the key nonpetroleum fuel technologies specified in this bill.

We are also working hard to make sure that the federal incentives for EV charging infrastructure and 2-3 wheeled plug-in vehicles are extended before they expire at the end of the year.

At the State Level in California:
SB209, Senate Majority Leader Ellen M. Corbett (D-San Leandro): Prevents condo homeowners associations from denying residents to install chargers. Modeled after legislation that Plug In America helped to pass in Hawaii. Click here to see a video of the recent panel that Plug In America convened on EV charging for multifamily housing.

SB730, Sen. Christine Kehoe (D-San Diego): Accelerates the permitting process for EV charger installations.

AB475, Assemblymember Betsy Butler (53rd District): Gives plug-in hybrid EV drivers the vehicle sticker (now awarded only to EV drivers) needed to use public chargers and parking spaces.

We’re also watching:
California Energy Commission funding for EV projects and infrastructure, and actively participating in the California Air Resources Board’s (CARB) efforts to renew the Clean Vehicle Program, which provides the rebates of up to $5,000 for new EVs. These rebates are slated for a three-fold increase in overall funding but individual rebates would likely be cut in half by the end of summer. This would mean that nearly six times as many cars would be eligible for the incentive.

EV road taxes, which are being considered in several states including Washington, Oregon, Texas and Minnesota. While EV owners want to pay their fair share, we see this as a troubling trend of dis-incentivizing plug-ins at the very time we should be increasing incentives. A fair way to address this issue would be to base a fee—for all vehicles—on Vehicle Miles Traveled (VMT) and vehicle weight. Meanwhile, any EV road tax should be waived until a substantial number of EVs are on the road...

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[Jaff]

The Feds here in Canada need to step up...they look foolish by leaving the incentives to the provinces (like they're not taking the transportation / pollution issue seriously)...

You're right, I just checked my wire and it is labeled 300v - 90C, which means I'm good for 95A. Cool.

To get back on topic. In Canada, as far as I know, only two provinces offer any incentives.
Ontario: $8,500 rebate at purchase, I believe Tesla applies for it for you
Quebec: $8,000 tax credit

Nothing from the federal government.

 

[Doug_G]

The Feds here in Canada need to step up...they look foolish by leaving the incentives to the provinces (like they're not taking the transportation / pollution issue seriously)...

Don't hold your breath.

 

[clea]

The Feds here in Canada need to step up...they look foolish by leaving the incentives to the provinces (like they're not taking the transportation / pollution issue seriously)...

Thsi is the sum total of our federal governments "action plan" on managing the issue of climate change through changes in the transportation sector.

http://climatechange.gc.ca/default.asp?lang=En&n=21ABF988-0

Don't hold your breath.

and like doug says ... i don't expect it to change anytime soon ...

 

[Norbert]

A proposal made by Tesla, from its testimony at the recent congressional hearing: (The Promise of Electric Vehicles | Blog | Tesla Motors)

Where that leaves us is the implementation of modifications to the tax code with the goal of ameliorating the initial high cost of early generation vehicles. With more EVs on the road, more consumers will try them, like them, and producers will to be able to better justify the billion dollar investments in design and tooling for newer, better, cheaper EVs. This is a model that worked successfully to spur the market for hybrid technology. The income tax credit for the purchase of a hybrid was designed to phase out over time and when certain volumetric milestones were achieved. There is currently a similar EV tax credit on the books, but it is imprecise in its methodology and does not fully incentivize the desired technology development. Its flaw is that it caps the available credit value at a battery pack size of roughly 17 kilowatt hours (kWh) – a pack that delivers less than 40 miles of range. By contrast, given the fact that the more kWhs of on-board energy storage result longer range, a well-constructed tax credit would not cap the kWh credit and instead would reward each onboard kWh. This tax code change would incentivize the uptake of extremely capable electric vehicles and would address the most important and currently most expensive component in the car – the battery.

Access to low cost capital that would incentivize manufacturers to invest in the development and manufacture of EVs and other plug-in technologies is also of critical importance. In this respect, the DOE’s Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Program is a model for how the federal government can accelerate the development of viable EVs through commercial style loans. Such arrangements are “win-win” situations. The companies seeking these loans, which must be paid back with interest, must first undergo rigorous scrutiny to ensure sound business models. Finally, there are a number of low cost local market policies that can help to encourage the adoption and trial of EVs. In this regard, access to HOV lanes on commuter arteries and free parking in densely populated areas already serve to incentivize EV adoption in places where they are applied.

 

[Norbert]

My own opinion: For EVs to gain market share, mostly three things seem important:

1) battery range and cost/range
2) L2 charging at places where one parks for a long time (and there is a chance one might come from far away).
3) fast-charging for places where one parks for a short time, perhaps only in order to charge (and there is a chance one might come from far away).

Charging at home/work is much more important than the above charging methods, but technically a problem already solved. However improving regulations and legislative support could probably help with the process of installation, and with enabling charging at (overnight) street parking.

re 1) Tesla's proposal would help address battery cost, and specifically help increase ranges.
re 2) Support for L2 charging seems to be on its way, is technically solved and just starting to happen.
re 3) Fast-charging, except in Japan, currently is made to appear as if it were akin to organizing a moon landing.

 

[ramon]

I see that 60 years of Federal subsidies has not dimmed the hope that this policy holds out. Subsidizing EV owners (most of whom are within the top 15% of wage earners) will take from the poor and give to the much better off, despite the fact that over 90% of prospective EV owners say that price is not a consideration for their purchase. I strongly object to screwing the lower classes just so the elite can write off their automobile. And, of course, there is nothing to be gained anyway. So there you have it : an elitist tax break that won't accomplish anything, except transferring money from those who can hardly afford to own a car, to those who are buying probably their second or third vehicles, this one so they can claim to be a "good Earth citizen."
Anyone who buys an EV an claims this tax giveaway I would like to have a chat with... [offensive comments removed by moderator]

 

[Norbert]

I see that 60 years of Federal subsidies has not dimmed the hope that this policy holds out

Sure, you happen to have a better idea? Otherwise I'd like to hear your opinion on tax breaks for oil companies.

I think what happens here is just a few EV enthusiasts being guinea pigs for the poor, and having fun with EVs, albeit with quite a few inconveniences currently.

 

[ChadS]

Ramon, you must be a lot of fun at parties.

You may not like subsidies (and there's a lot I don't like about them either), but EV subsidies are no different than any other tax subsidy (including the ones for petroleum, ethanol, biodiesel, hydrogen, etc). The dollars come from the same people in the same relative amounts; there is no targetting of the poor. And the advantages of EVs (less strategic reliance on OPEC countries; reducing our trade deficit, less pollution) go to all Americans, not just the ones that buy EVs. You are better off for others buying them. If you have a problem with subsidies in general, you should probably post on a forum about political policy rather than here, because it doesn't say anything special at all about EVs.

"Nothing to be gained anyway"? The economic and strategic benefits are obvious, so I won't belabor those. The environmental benefits are open to question from those that haven't looked in to the issue, but here is an overview of a few dozen studies on the subject that shows there is a very large benefit: http://www.sherryboschert.com/Downloads/Emissions pdf.

 

[dsm363]

Ramon: While I disagree with most of what you said, there was certainly a more polite way to state your point.

 

[doug]

A variety of opinions is welcome, but they have to presented in a civil manner. Keep in mind that new users that come off as rude are most likely trolls and are best ignored and/or reported (use the

button).

 

[shark2k]

A variety of opinions is welcome, but they have to presented in a civil manner. Keep in mind that new users that come off as rude are most likely trolls and are best ignored and/or reported (use the

button).

I like your reasoning for ediing that message, it gave me a chuckle :biggrin:.

-Shark2k

 

[Norbert]

I like your reasoning for ediing that message, it gave me a chuckle :biggrin:.

Especially the "probably" part....

 

[Norbert]

An incentive possibly resulting from overnight-charging for street parking might be a dedicated/reserved parking spot, I'd guess. In many areas, this might actually be a big incentive, and in itself wouldn't cost very much (only the overhead of a reservation system, which might be per month or so).

 

[Norbert]

Perhaps a bit more can be said about the relationship of incentives and the question of EVs for the "rich" and/or the "poor". I think it would be a misinterpretation of the incentives to suggest that they would be justified (only) by immediately allowing low income customers to buy EVs. However, that might be a valid point if the incentives were large enough to completely offset the currently high battery costs. But they aren't, especially not for battery sizes which are large enough for them to be usable as anything else than a secondary city car, but they are not even for that. This means that even with incentives, the battery part of EVs (if sold with a profit for the manufacturer) currently needs to have a quite high price, and so wouldn't be appealing for cars in the lower price ranges.

The real value of incentives lies in enabling an EV industry to function at all, thereby also helping to create a market for the development of lower priced batteries, which will eventually lead to EVs that can be sold, with profit, in low price ranges as well.