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Eversource - Demand Charges

Discussion in 'New England' started by Cowabunga, Apr 23, 2020.

  1. Cowabunga

    Cowabunga Member

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    Hi all,

    I'm looking into electric charges here in Mass to justify the fuel savings. While my Eversource supply rate is great at 11.67 cents/kWh, the demand rate is about 10.5 cents/kWh. This seems to kill a majority of the savings, and puts the total electric charge at ~22.2 cents/kWh.

    Is this unique to Mass? When I watch or read anything on how people are calculating their EV fuel savings, it seems they're only using a Supply charge. Are we just the unlucky state that has this?

    Thanks
     
  2. HankLloydRight

    HankLloydRight No Roads

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    We pay 22c/kWh here in CT (also Eversource). But any way you cut it, it's still less expensive than an ICE car (not including all the other positive benefits). What are you comparing it to?
     
  3. Ed Freniere

    Ed Freniere Member

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    I'm afraid that's life in MA.

    However, many towns in MA have their own municipal electric service. They either have their own power plant or buy power in bulk from a big power company and distribute power to residents as a non-profit. I used to live in a town with municipal power. I moved to a different town in MA and now have National Grid. At my old address power was about half the cost of National Grid, service was much better with lines well maintained and blackouts were rare and quickly repaired. Since moving about five years ago we have had several multiple-day and multiple-hour blackouts. Municipal light companies are often much greener too.

    My next move will be back to one of these towns. Now owning a Model 3, and wanting to go all-electric on my home, the savings my on electricity bill will be significant.

    Massachusetts municipally-owned electric companies
    Municipal Light Plant Towns
     
  4. Cowabunga

    Cowabunga Member

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    Thanks for the reply, Hank. I'm mainly comparing to the Youtube videos that break down cost savings by going EV. Most of them use an electric rate somewhere around 12-14 cents per kWh. Since Eversource is so much higher, it really seems to water down the savings.

    I'm trying to look at everything on paper to justify the cost, and it seems like a great deal if your electric rate is in that 12-14 cent range -- but are these Youtubers, etc, just forgetting to factor in Demand charges, or are we just the unlucky select states that have to deal with it?
     
  5. Ed Freniere

    Ed Freniere Member

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    I posted a reply earlier, but for some reason it's not showing up. I'm trying again as a reply to your latest post.

    I'm afraid that's life in MA.

    However, many towns in MA have their own municipal electric service. They either have their own power plant or buy power in bulk from a big power company and distribute power to residents as a non-profit. I used to live in a town with municipal power. I moved to a different town in MA and now have National Grid. At my old address power was about half the cost of National Grid, service was much better with lines well maintained and blackouts were rare and quickly repaired. Since moving about five years ago we have had several multiple-day and multiple-hour blackouts. Municipal light companies are often much greener too.

    My next move will be back to one of these towns. Now owning a Model 3, and wanting to go all-electric on my home, the savings my on electricity bill will be significant.

    Massachusetts municipally-owned electric companies
    Municipal Light Plant Towns
     
  6. Cowabunga

    Cowabunga Member

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    All, I should have stated Delivery, not Demand, my mistake.
     
  7. HankLloydRight

    HankLloydRight No Roads

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    Don't go by random youubers... do your own calculation. Figure out how much you've spent on fuel for, say, a year, and now many miles you traveled during that same time period. If you want to make it even more realistic, add in all the costs for oil changes, tune-ups, brake jobs, radiator flushes, belts, batteries,etc, and any other ICE-related repairs to calculate a real cost in cents/mile. Then do the same for the Tesla model you are considering. We can help you with a realistic Wh/mile to figure the cents/mile figure to compare.
     
  8. JWardell

    JWardell Member

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    That is typical if not a few cents lower than normal for MA. We have some of the most expensive electric rates in the country.
    But it's still cheaper than gas...and a lot more fun :)
     
  9. JPoldo

    JPoldo Member

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    Did you know MA has the 3rd highest electric rate in the nation, eclipsed only by CA and Hawaii. While MA is 22 cents/khw, Florida is only 10 cents. And Florida Power & Light announced declining rates. How can there be such a big difference in cost for this comodity? Does Eversource have poor efficiency? How about some government oversight.

    I am working with a start-up who is developing a Time of Use (TOU) device for electric vehicles to charge during non-peak times. It is WiFi and cloud based so no new wiring is needed. Hopefully Eversource will offer a big discount for useage during low demand.
     
  10. JWardell

    JWardell Member

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    We don't have Time of Use here in Mass. California does and is therefore much cheaper than here. You don't need an extra device, you can just schedule your Tesla to charge during times of lower rates.

    By far the best thing you can do here is install solar, not only does it offset our astronomical electric rates, but we have net metering and you are paid additional for each kWh you produce regardless if you use it.
     
    • Informative x 1
  11. jlv1

    jlv1 Twice as much fun

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    It all depends upon where you live in MA, too. E.g., Shrewsbury has town-operated electric service and it is unbelievably inexpensive compared to the rest of the state (under 12 cents/kWh for supply&delivery).
     
    • Informative x 1
  12. North75

    North75 Member

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    I have also wondered why MA delivery charges (not even counting generation) are higher than the total delivered cost in other parts of the country. I find it hard to believe that it actually costs that much more to deliver electricity here in Massachusetts.
    I'm guessing that with anything regulated the power companies will charge whatever the state regulators allow them to charge, so good luck trying to get those numbers reduced.

    MA is one of the hardest states to justify EV cost of ownership. On one hand we have really expensive Electric rates, but our state gas taxes are actually kind of low at $0.26/gal. CA is $0.61/gal and PA is $0.59/gal for comparison. As other's have stated EV's can still wind up being cheaper if you work through all of the numbers.
     
  13. Cowabunga

    Cowabunga Member

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    That's where I struggle. I spent $1,500 a year in gas last year. If I calculate at my electric rate, $0.225/kWh by the 1,300 miles/month I drive, it works to $623 a year savings, or about $52 a month.

    I thought because I drive a lot, I'd see enough savings to justify the cost. Unfortunately $52/month savings doesn't seem like enough to do that, in large part because of our high electric rates (I unfortunately don't live in a town that has it's own electric company).
     
  14. HankLloydRight

    HankLloydRight No Roads

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    If you want to look at it at a pure dollars-and-cents point of view, that's where you'll end up. But there are so many other intangible benefits to driving electric, especially Teslas that make it more than worth the "justification price". And once you do get a Tesla, you'll forget all about the monthly or yearly savings over ICE and wonder why you didn't do this year ago.

    By the way, did you include all these other ICE costs in your calculation, as I suggested above: "oil changes, tune-ups, brake jobs, radiator flushes, belts, batteries,etc, and any other ICE-related repairs". You can assume tire wear would be about the same, so you can exclude that. As I suggested, try doing a real cents/mile calculation taking in to account all vehicle costs over a year, not just gas. Because essentially, Teslas have none of those costs except for washer fluid, wiper blades, and brake pads, but at a 5+ year interval. You'll probably by a new Tesla before you need to replace brake pads. :)
     
    • Like x 1
  15. Cowabunga

    Cowabunga Member

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    Thanks for the reply, Hank.

    I did include 4 x $40 oil changes per year in my savings, but not the other maintenance costs.
     
  16. David29

    David29 Supporting Member

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    I do not mean to be picky, but the rates you are referring to are not "Demand" charges. That term applies to part of the service for large commercial and industrial customers, not residential customers. On my bill, Eversource refers to the two parts as "Electric Supply Services (meaning the generation of the power) and the "Delivery Services," meaning the service provided by Eversource itself to transmit the power to you and administer the account and billing and so on. But I agree that whatever Eversource calls them, the two add up to being among the very highest electricity costs in the continental US.

    As to your point about whether or not you save money with an EV at these high rates, you might not. A lot depends upon how you do the comparison. A model S or X uses a lot more energy per mile than a Model 3 or Y, and for those larger cars I would say you cannot justify their use as a way to save costs. They still save energy, however. And with Model 3 or Y, it might depend upon what car you compare them to. If you compare them do a BMW 3-series or other "luxury compact," you might get a more favorable result than a comparison to a small car like a Honda Civic, especially with today's gas prices. Part of the reason for this is the lower cost per unit of energy for gasoline than for electricity. Again, EVs save lots of energy but how much money they save is a function of market forces, subsidies, and so on.

    But as discussed above, EVs have other advantages.
     
    • Like x 1
  17. Uncle Paul

    Uncle Paul Well-Known Member

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    MA has a combination of very high electric costs and comparitively low gas taxes.
    Results is that the fuel savings that so much of the world enjoys is not applicable here...sorry.
     
  18. David29

    David29 Supporting Member

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    I'd be a bit cautious about assuming the maintenance costs for a Tesla are only for "washer fluid, wiper blades, and brake pads, but at a 5+ year interval." Based upon my nearly five years with my 70D, that is unrealistic. First, my experience even with a non-performance car is that tires wear out faster than on the cars I drove before, and they are larger, most expensive tires for a heavier car. Second, even the now-simplified annual maintenance is not free, especially here in the northeast where Tesla recommends the extra-cost brake cleaning and lubrication. My 4th year service was $845, including a number of items common to any car -- wiper blades, tire rotation, cabin filter, brake fluid check or replacement, brake service, and some other routine items -- they do add up. None of this year's service was peculiar to an EV -- it was all stuff that any car would have needed. I am not complaining -- any car needs preventive maintenance and Teslas are no exception. I agree there has been nothing yet corresponding to the engine in an ICE car, nothing like exhaust repairs or oil changes.
     

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