First Model 3 Battery Teardown!

[adaptabl]

The only battery experts I want to hear from are the ones who built it. Nobody else is an expert on it but those.

Pier review is an important part of any design process. Anyone not wanting to hear other opinions has their head in the sand. I myself, prefer to have as much information as possible from all sources to make an intelligent opinion.

 

[adaptabl]

So ... more manual work will enable tighter tolerances and less variation in build quality?
This is what I don't understand? This is what Sandy is telling us?

What Tesla skipped is the part where they crush first 2000 peaces from the line because of the problems Sandy was talking about.

What Sandy skipped is the part that people learn, assembly line gets tuned and Tesla constantly optimizes the design.
What Sandy does not understand is that Tesla does not do model years, it does not sit on design changes waiting next September.

Same story with Roadster, same story with S, same story with X, same story with 3.

The problem is if the design is poor for the production methods being used. No amount of tuning will ever fix it. Humans can work with poor designs better as they can adjust on the fly for production differences and compensate as needed. Robots do not have this ability. I think that's the problem Tesla is having.

Elon had a vision to have these Models 3's come off the assembly line one by one all little clones of each other all perfect in every detail. No human hands needed. I think that is the kind forward thinking we need to make things change. The problem is that's not the way things work in industrial assembly. There are 100's to 1000's of suppliers all having a little part in the total product. If any of those 1000's of parts have any defects the entire product is affected. Humans can react to these "production differences" and adjust as needed. Robots can not. That is why serial assembly does not work. There has to be buffers in parts so that is one area has problems the other areas can continue until those issues are solved. Toyota probably the best in industrial assembly and quality has a large number of trained workers producing it's cars. They have tried the robot method and went back to humans.

 

[Krugerrand]

Pier review is an important part of any design process. Anyone not wanting to hear other opinions has their head in the sand. I myself, prefer to have as much information as possible from all sources to make an intelligent opinion.

The design process is over and Tesla is THE premiere real and functioning world EV battery designer and builder. That’s a fact.

For sure everyone else should be taking apart Tesla batteries to learn what they dont know. But there is no one, no peer, that knows more about Tesla’s batteries than J.B. and gang.

The only intelligent opinion is the one not expressed for it belongs to the person who knows the worth of said opinion in this world full of opinionated people.

And as I said, I want to know from the people who designed and built ‘whatever’. I won’t need to have an opinion, I’ll simply know for a fact.

 

[Krugerrand]

The problem is if the design is poor for the production methods being used. No amount of tuning will ever fix it. Humans can work with poor designs better as they can adjust on the fly for production differences and compensate as needed. Robots do not have this ability. I think that's the problem Tesla is having.

Elon had a vision to have these Models 3's come off the assembly line one by one all little clones of each other all perfect in every detail. No human hands needed. I think that is the kind forward thinking we need to make things change. The problem is that's not the way things work in industrial assembly. There are 100's to 1000's of suppliers all having a little part in the total product. If any of those 1000's of parts have any defects the entire product is affected. Humans can react to these "production differences" and adjust as needed. Robots can not. That is why serial assembly does not work. There has to be buffers in parts so that is one area has problems the other areas can continue until those issues are solved. Toyota probably the best in industrial assembly and quality has a large number of trained workers producing it's cars. They have tried the robot method and went back to humans.

And they also said you couldn’t build and land a reuseable rocket. They also said the X couldn’t be manufactured or that Tesla could even get S to market let alone sell more than a handful. They’ve said a lot of things these ‘peers’ and industry experts and opinionators.

Put up (build a better EV, sell it for less and make larger margins) or shut up and watch Tesla do it.

 

[Electroman]

Everything the Auto and Space industry peers have said have been proven wrong. Don’t put a lot of emphasis on what the peers say.

The most stupid thing I heard on this topic: Robots could not do this in 1980, so Robots could not do it in 2018 - nearly 40 years later.

You know when the first few landings failed, we heard the same murmurs: "there is a reason why NASA has not even attempted this.. because it cannot be done", "NASA tried this in the 70s but gave up because some techno-blah-blah reason", "Musk should learn from their peers and go for the tried and trusted route".

Same thing with the dealers: "GM tried with Saturn, they failed", "Germans tried it in 90s, and they failed". 'Musk should learn from their peers and not try the failed experiment of direct sales".

 

[bthienthai]

What does Munroe know about cell and battery technology from them to comment on this?

Extremely well built? How does he know?

Exactly my thought. It's like having a dentist evaluating a surgeon's work. The result is a lot of "I don't understand". I'm sure he's got a lot of experience in the auto industry. But most of his experience would be irrelevant here because Tesla is an electric car. It's a different animal. If you're still not convinced, try bringing your Tesla to your most experienced mechanic at an ICE autoshop and see if they can fix your car. The most they can do for you is change your tires.

 

[Electroman]

Exactly my thought. It's like having a dentist evaluating a surgeon's work. The result is a lot of "I don't understand". I'm sure he's got a lot of experience in the auto industry. But most of his experience would be irrelevant here because Tesla is an electric car. It's a different animal. If you're still not convinced, try bringing your Tesla to your most experienced mechanic at an ICE autoshop and see if they can fix your car. The most they can do for you is change your tires.

Exactly. You nailed it.

Only another battery expert can comment on a battery design.

 

[adaptabl]

Everything the Auto and Space industry peers have said have been proven wrong. Don’t put a lot of emphasis on what the peers say.

The most stupid thing I heard on this topic: Robots could not do this in 1980, so Robots could not do it in 2018 - nearly 40 years later.

You know when the first few landings failed, we heard the same murmurs: "there is a reason why NASA has not even attempted this.. because it cannot be done", "NASA tried this in the 70s but gave up because some techno-blah-blah reason", "Musk should learn from their peers and go for the tried and trusted route".

Same thing with the dealers: "GM tried with Saturn, they failed", "Germans tried it in 90s, and they failed". 'Musk should learn from their peers and not try the failed experiment of direct sales".

The question is does it make sense to do it? Reusing rockets has its price. The payload is smaller as you need to carry the fuel you need for landing instead of payload. Then you have to refurbish the rocket. Will they make a profit? Who knows, the books are not public so far.

Everything the Auto and Space industry peers have said have been proven wrong. Don’t put a lot of emphasis on what the peers say.

The most stupid thing I heard on this topic: Robots could not do this in 1980, so Robots could not do it in 2018 - nearly 40 years later.

You know when the first few landings failed, we heard the same murmurs: "there is a reason why NASA has not even attempted this.. because it cannot be done", "NASA tried this in the 70s but gave up because some techno-blah-blah reason", "Musk should learn from their peers and go for the tried and trusted route".

Same thing with the dealers: "GM tried with Saturn, they failed", "Germans tried it in 90s, and they failed". 'Musk should learn from their peers and not try the failed experiment of direct sales".

You don't think Toyota continues to try assembly innovation? There is a difference between a scientific method and just make it work attitude.

 

[Krugerrand]

The question is does it make sense to do it? Reusing rockets has its price. The payload is smaller as you need to carry the fuel you need for landing instead of payload. Then you have to refurbish the rocket. Will they make a profit? Who knows, the books are not public so far.

The questions have long since been answered. But thanks for asking it as I now know what you’re all about.

You don't think Toyota continues to try assembly innovation? There is a difference between a scientific method and just make it work attitude.

So double standards. Got it.

 

[Electroman]

The question is does it make sense to do it? Reusing rockets has its price. The payload is smaller as you need to carry the fuel you need for landing instead of payload. Then you have to refurbish the rocket. Will they make a profit? Who knows, the books are not public so far.

Agreed. It doesn't make sense. Best to dump them in the sea.

As they say, never argue with a genius. People can't tell the difference.