Fisker Atlantic (Nina)

[vfx]

While I'm thrilled there is money going towards more electrification of the automobile, why more $$ than Tesla with less being made in the US? How practical is it making parts here, shipping them to Finland, and then back here? Oh yeah, $90,000 worth of impractical.

I think there is more Tesla money to come. Probably Bluestar money. Maybe we see a protype soon. And it will give rides unlike Fisker's design pieces.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Supposedly most of the money goes to the next model, but no one has seen even the concept of it so I don't know how they got the money. Maybe they have it somewhere in their application? But their first car isn't even out yet and they already have the Sunset and this next model. It seems like they are overextending themselves.

 

[Tim]

$170 million for additional Karma engineering?!?!? Wow, the mythical man-month strikes again. What a huge boondoggle. Apparently it was no where near to being as complete as advertised and this loan stretches the stated purpose of the ATVM loans to the max. A section 136 loan requires that the company be financially viable without the support of the government loan. Since Fisker manufactures no products and requires $170 million to complete its first product how can it be argued that it is independently financially viable? At the time it was considered a stretch to consider Tesla meeting that criteria. I know Chu has wide latitude with this, but this loan is a dud. I've got to wonder what the internal program cost of this loan is. Certainly more than the 30% subsidy imagined in the law.

 

[dpeilow]

Fisker trumps Tesla with $528M loan from Energy Dept. | VentureBeat

DOE loans Fisker Automotive $530 million to build two plug-in hybrids | Up to Speed | Los Angeles Times

The Associated Press: Calif. automaker receives $528.7 million govt loan

 

[doug]

Gore-Backed Car Firm Gets Large U.S. Loan - WSJ.com

DOE officials spent months working with Fisker on its application, touring its Irvine, Calif., and Pontiac, Mich., facilities and test-driving prototypes.

Matt Rogers, who oversees the department's loan programs as a senior adviser to Energy Secretary Steven Chu, said Fisker was awarded the loan after a "detailed technical review" that concluded the company could eventually deliver a highly fuel-efficient hybrid car to a mass audience. Fisker said most of its DOE loan will be used to finance U.S. production of a $40,000 family sedan that has yet to be designed.

 

[Dogtown]

It's important to keep in mind that first, the media has very little real information to work from. They have obviously not done very much research on this topic. Second, that for all intents and purposes Tesla and Fisker are exactly the same to them. Almost without fail you hear in each report about both of the companies that have received the DoE loan. I'm appalled at the fact that FoxNews can say on the air that the loan is going to a company from Finland and one from England. Then they go on to say that the money should at least go to an American company. Do they really think all of GM's cars are assembled in the United States?

Fox News Attacks US Loans to Fisker and Tesla | Hybrid Cars

Certainly at this point the success of each of these companies is somewhat tied to the other. If either were to fail at this point it would put unimaginable pressure on the other. Even better, they each have a specific technology that fits a different niche. It is not an us or them situation.

It's very sad that this is going to be the first time many people have heard of either company. Let's all hope there truly is no such thing as bad press.

 

[vfx]

Details on the loan

 

[dpeilow]

Fisker’s Got a Place to Build 100K Cars | Autopia | Wired.com

Fisker Automotive says it has selected a site in the United States for the factory that will produce the $39,900 plug-in hybrid codenamed Nina.

Founder and CEO Henrik Fisker said the company has reached a deal to build as many as 100,000 of the cars annually and he will announce the specific location of the factory “soon.” Fisker made the announcement at a conference in Washington D.C., and company officials could not be reached for comment. According to Dow Jones Newswires, the company was said to be considering sites in Delaware and California.

 

[dpeilow]

REPORT: Fisker going to Delaware for Project Nina plant; Quantum readies diesel-hybrid powertrain — Autoblog Green

The AP is reporting that Fisker and Delaware representatives have been talking about turning an old GM plant in Wilmington into a place to build PHEVs.

UPDATE: We're now hearing that the Governor of Delaware has confirmed this on a local radio station.

 

[dpeilow]

Officially Official: Fisker buys GM's Wilmington Delaware plant — Autoblog Green

 

[Dogtown]

Project Nina

It sounds like the design for the Nina Concept is done. After the plant announcement there was a special dealer meeting where they got to see it.

Fisker Reveals Project Nina Concept Car | Fisker Car Forum

 

[doug]

Fisker Delaware Plant To Be A Union Shop | The Truth About Cars

It gives me great pride to give UAW Local 435 workers the opportunity to partner with Fisker Automotive to create a greener America by building a plug-in hybrid car that will compete globally
​

So goes the line from Gary Casteel, the new Union boss for Fisker’s new Wilmington, Delaware plant at Automotive News [sub]. Why would the luxury EV startup hitch its wagon to the union that helped bring down Detroit?...

 

[Arnold Panz]

I thought this quote was even more telling:

From VW and Kia to Hybrid Kinetic Motors and Tesla, new US factories are being located in Southern states and California largely to escape the profit and productivity-sapping union. Either Fisker knows something that they don’t, or inviting the union into the new shop was a potential error of enormous magnitude.

I'll vote for the latter. The UAW, and its members, have proven themselves to be completely out of touch with the realities of the profitability and viability of automakers in the US today. Fisker may think they're gaining some sort of advantage with the government by willingly accepting unionization of their plant, but it is a decision they will likely live to regret in the years ahead (if they get that far) as their labor costs and inflexible work rules make them unable to compete in the marketplace.

 

[thejump]

Officially Official: Fisker buys GM's Wilmington Delaware plant — Autoblog Green

What is really going on with Tesla?

Back in Feb 07 they announce that they were building a plant in Albuquerque, NM - that never happened. At the time Hendrik Fisker was working as a contractor to Tesla, Fisker Automotive didn't even exist as it does today yet.

Tesla then announced San Jose. That fell through. They talked about Long Beach, then Fremont (old NUMMI plant), and somewhere else, ect....

All while this cycle happens over and over again, Fisker organizes a company, designs and creates a working prototype of a vehicle, designs a second car and now officially signs a letter of intent to buy a real plant that actually exists.

You guys can reply by saying I'm a troll all the time but I'm just presenting a different point of view. Sure Tesla is opening store after store but without having a assembly plant to build Model S all they will be doing is selling Roadster. If Tesla is going to survive, then their future must be with new product development. Few companies survive on one widget forever.

Here's the questions:

After almost three years, where's the plant? Consider the speed and certainty of Fisker's decisions. They consider their next step, evaluate the options, and execute a decision. That is how a successful company is managed.

The Model S and/or Whitestar have been in design for a little over three years now. When is SOP? Really when is it? I don't care to see the whole Program timeline (that's none of our business), but after three years can't the company say with certainty what month and year SOP will occur? Any other car company is able to design and manufacture a vehicle to market in under three years.

So I ask again, what is really going on with Tesla?

 

[doug]

And yet Fisker has yet to deliver a single vehicle or even offer test rides to customers. While I would like to see Fisker (and many other players) succeed, the purchase of this plant and the UAW agreements feel premature. They have a ways to go to prove that even their first car will be profitable, let alone this "lower cost" car which we haven't seen.

And while a decision on the Tesla Model S plant is long overdue. We do know that they are in negotiations with at least two SoCal locations, are setting up a powertrain facility in Palo Alto, and have to assume that development work continues. I think if you ask people knowledgeable about the automotive industry, they'll tell you that "to design and manufacture a vehicle to market in under three years" is extremely fast.

.

 

[stopcrazypp]

After almost three years, where's the plant? Consider the speed and certainty of Fisker's decisions. They consider their next step, evaluate the options, and execute a decision. That is how a successful company is managed.

The Model S and/or Whitestar have been in design for a little over three years now. When is SOP?

I'd say Fisker is moving too fast. Like Doug said, they don't even have one car out yet, not even for test drives. Now they are already moving to planning their second car. So far they haven't really proven anything. I'm hoping to see something out of them soon.

As for the Model S, it seems the prototype from early this year was still fairly crude. WhiteStar has been in design for some time, but obviously not finalized. The whole litigation with Fisker and then the styling redesign obvious delayed things a bit. And they had issues with the Roadster to deal with, so it makes sense that WhiteStar probably got thrown on the back burner. Also, being their first car platform from the ground up, it makes sense that it will take a bit longer to design. They have to keep in mind future uses of the platform.

As for selecting the plant, I would like to see them move faster too, but it seems they are doing it carefully to reap the most benefits out of each possible area. With Fisker, yes they did it quickly, but it's unclear if they really got the best that they could (I've seen many question the UAW decision).

After some of the issues that happened with the Roadster, I think Tesla wised up a bit and is being more careful.

 

[dpeilow]

Furthermore, this ignores the fact that Tesla had to switch locations due to the conditions attached to the DoE loan. That clearly cost time and I suspect lessons were learnt about premature announcements. This time they will have all their ducks in a row first.

Secondly, some of those conditions seem to have been relaxed for Fisker - namely the need to show profitability.

 

[Arnold Panz]

What is really going on with Tesla?

I love the concept of Fisker and what they're trying to do. Their prototypes look beautiful, and they say all of the right things. But here's the thing: Tesla has actually sold hundreds of Roadsters to actual customers. Fisker hasn't made one production car yet, and until they do, they can talk about building 50,000 or 100,000 or 1 million cars, but it doesn't matter until they get production car #1 off the assembly line.

No doubt Tesla had fits and starts, and continues to do so, but that's the nature of business, especially a very difficult and complex one like auto manufacturing. If it was as easy as Fisker makes it sound, everyone would be making cars. Their whole "outsourcing" model is, in my opinion, a significant impediment to their success. Relying on several other companies to coordinate everything and perform is promised is a huge gamble. I recall Elon telling a story about Tesla having a problem with one of their suppliers and having to fly to Finland or something to get everything straightened out because they couldn't get them to deliver on what was promised.

To successfully build a car, dozens of moving parts have to come together perfectly at just the right time and place -- the logistics of car manufacturing are among the most complex in the world. Fisker's outsourcing arrangements seem to me to exponentially increase this complexity, and until/unless they actually get an assembly line up and running, I'm going to be extremely skeptical that they will ever actually make any production vehicles.

Tesla's track record isn't perfect, but if there were betting lines on whether Model S or the Karma were going to make it to market, I would expect Tesla to be the odds on heavy favorite. All Fisker has shown is the ability to talk about how great their cars are, and build beautiful prototypes.

 

[vfx]

... it makes sense that WhiteStar probably got thrown on the back burner.

The S is Tesla's 2nd car and was put on the backburner so the company could focus on being profitable selling the Roadster.

Why doesn't Fisker let anyone ride in the Karma? Tesla gave rides all night in two prototypes at their Roadster debut party and gave Model S rides all day into the night at that opening. The Karma and Sunset are beautiful to look at on any level (the company is all about design) but it's pretty scary that only Chelsea has ridden in it.

Tesla has been in the black for a few months selling product. When Fisker does that I will pay attention.

PS

How about this, Jump.
Do you have a down payment on a Karma? We put ours down long ago when it was $1k. (A lot less risky than the $30K on Tesla more than a year before P1 rolled off the line). Are you going to the Fisker LA owner event tonight? Hope they share the Nina. Biden says it looks like a 4 door Ferrari at $40K!

 

[domenick]

If *someone* goes and the Nina is there, *someone* should take a picture of it with thir spycam and pass it along to an anonymous blogger. ^_^

But mostly agree with the sentiment above. The Karma looks great (apart from the interior (OMFG!)) but it's a huge question mark with an unproven drivetrain being built offshore. I've worked for a company in the past that had far simpler goods made overseas and there's nothing quite like having a customer reject $500,000 in product because of miscommunication about tiny details.