FSD Letter - What does it include?

[R1Bill]

So, I just got this letter:

As an owner who has purchased Enhanced Autopilot – you can now upgrade to Full Self-Driving Capability at a reduced price of $3,000. Get access to current convenience features and future Full Self-Driving features to continually increase the capability of your Tesla over time.
Use Navigate on Autopilot for assisted driving from on-ramp to off-ramp, including interchanges, merges and exits – while Autopark and Summon take the hassle out of finding a parking spot and getting out of tight spaces.
The price of this upgrade will increase on August 16.

What does this actually include? Hardware? or just software?

According the the T4U app, my 2017 Model S P100D has Autopilot 2.0 Hardware and 2.0 Enhanced Firmware and DCF0 Autopilot Convenience features.

 

[animorph]

It will include HW3. Currently no software features beyond EAP. It will include beyond EAP:

Coming later this year:

• Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs.
• Automatic driving on city streets.

 

[R1Bill]

So what exactly is HW3? Just a computer upgrade or additional sensors as well?

I've been using Autopilot quite a bit and have noticed three big issues - for me at least:

1) it doesn't seem to "see" stationery objects. - i.e. cross traffic or road barriers that are not where they're easily anticipated or supposed to be, such as in construction zones.
2) the cameras/software are not calculating far enough ahead. This is most noticeable when in the right lane and a new lane merges on. The car abruptly scoots over to the middle of the lane and then back when it narrows. That's just poor programming.
3) and it's too abrupt. Probably part of not looking far enough ahead, it does a poor job of smoothly dealing with traffic issues.

As an Automation Engineer with a lot of time programming vision systems, Autopilot currently seems to be quite primitive. I'm wondering if that's due to limitations with the software or if the 2.0 computer is just not powerful enough to do the proper calculations.

 

[EVNow]

So what exactly is HW3? Just a computer upgrade or additional sensors as well?

I've been using Autopilot quite a bit and have noticed three big issues - for me at least:

1) it doesn't seem to "see" stationery objects. - i.e. cross traffic or road barriers that are not where they're easily anticipated or supposed to be, such as in construction zones.
2) the cameras/software are not calculating far enough ahead. This is most noticeable when in the right lane and a new lane merges on. The car abruptly scoots over to the middle of the lane and then back when it narrows. That's just poor programming.
3) and it's too abrupt. Probably part of not looking far enough ahead, it does a poor job of smoothly dealing with traffic issues.

As an Automation Engineer with a lot of time programming vision systems, Autopilot currently seems to be quite primitive. I'm wondering if that's due to limitations with the software or if the 2.0 computer is just not powerful enough to do the proper calculations.

Nobody outside Tesla knows how much better AP will be with HW3, which is the new computer.

Do you use NN for the vision system ?

 

[diplomat33]

So what exactly is HW3? Just a computer upgrade or additional sensors as well?

Just an easy computer upgrade. No additional sensors as far as we know. Mobile Service just opens the panel under your glove compartment and swaps out the old computer and swaps in the new one.

I've been using Autopilot quite a bit and have noticed three big issues - for me at least:

1) it doesn't seem to "see" stationery objects. - i.e. cross traffic or road barriers that are not where they're easily anticipated or supposed to be, such as in construction zones.
2) the cameras/software are not calculating far enough ahead. This is most noticeable when in the right lane and a new lane merges on. The car abruptly scoots over to the middle of the lane and then back when it narrows. That's just poor programming.
3) and it's too abrupt. Probably part of not looking far enough ahead, it does a poor job of smoothly dealing with traffic issues.

That's because Tesla has not released their "feature complete" FSD yet.

As an Automation Engineer with a lot of time programming vision systems, Autopilot currently seems to be quite primitive. I'm wondering if that's due to limitations with the software or if the 2.0 computer is just not powerful enough to do the proper calculations.

Probably a bit of both. We know that NOA (Navigate on AP) uses about 80% of the computational power of the current HW2 computer. So the current software is almost at the limit of what the HW2 computer can handle. And Karpathy has said that they have better NN but it can't run on the current HW2 computer. Certainly the limitations you mention can all be solved with software. Tesla has been clear that the new HW3 or FSD computer will be required to run the true FSD software that Tesla is developing.

 

[R1Bill]

Nobody outside Tesla knows how much better AP will be with HW3, which is the new computer.

Do you use NN for the vision system ?

Mostly close range vision for manufacturing inspection systems. Very limited scope with no AI or NN. But other than the learning, automation is automation. It's really easy to see what the car is doing and that the current autopilot is barely more than automatic cruise control and looking at lane markers and traffic close to your vehicle. At least with Hardware 2.0. And as diplomat33 said, if the software is using 80% of the 2.0 computational power, they really can't do more. It definitely pushes me over the edge and makes me want to spring for the upgrade.

 

[ngi0811]

Is $3000 a fair price for this upgrade?

 

[diplomat33]

Is $3000 a fair price for this upgrade?

I think so but it really depends on your situation. If you already have Enhanced Summon, $3000 will not get you anything right now. But it does get you the free FSD computer upgrade and ALL future FSD features whenever they come out. There are 2 FSD features listed on the website that are supposed to come out later this year but I am sure there will be more FSD updates afterwards that the $3000 will also guarantee you.

 

[R1Bill]

Is $3000 a fair price for this upgrade?

Fair? Well that depends on how you feel about what you were "promised" when you purchased your vehicle. Somehow, I assumed that Enhanced Autopilot was the same as Full Self Driving so no, not entirely "fair". But, on the other hand, we all upgrade our computers occasionally. And the one in my car feels like it's maxed out so it's time for an upgrade. $3000 is a lot more fair than $6000 or whatever it will be increased to.

 

[R1Bill]

I think so but it really depends on your situation. If you already have Enhanced Summon, $3000 will not get you anything right now. But it does get you the free FSD computer upgrade and ALL future FSD features whenever they come out. There are 2 FSD features listed on the website that are supposed to come out later this year but I am sure there will be more FSD updates afterwards that the $3000 will also guarantee you.

Yeah. "Free FSD computer". And "ALL future FSD features". After the previous promises made with "Enhanced Autopilot" and the complete lack of details in the letter or on the website, I don't quite buy into it. Without telling us what exactly we are going to get, they can change their mind at anytime and bill us for it. But the fact remains that the computer is at its limits, I want more functionality and this price is likely to be the best one we'll see.

 

[diplomat33]

Without telling us what exactly we are going to get, they can change their mind at anytime and bill us for it.

Tesla does say exactly what FSD features we are going to get on the autopilot order page:

Coming later this year
- Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs
- Automatic driving on city streets

My point is that in addition to the 2 features above, there will most likely be additional FSD software updates later and we will get those as well.

 

[R1Bill]

Yeah, it sure is cool how we all get frequent improvements without paying extra for them. Another thing to love about Tesla. But as far as details of exactly what we're going to get, I'm accustomed to a LOT more than a few little ambiguous marketing lines such as:

Coming later this year
- Recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs
- Automatic driving on city streets

when going out and spending thousands of dollars on something. For instance, the only way we know that the hardware is being changed out is that other users have told us. There's nothing about that in any Tesla literature that I have found. Nor are there any specs. If I did that to any of my clients, they would laugh me out of the room.

 

[diplomat33]

For instance, the only way we know that the hardware is being changed out is that other users have told us. There's nothing about that in any Tesla literature that I have found. Nor are there any specs.

Tesla did release a lot of specs on the FSD computer during the Autonomy Investor Day. In fact, Tesla had a rather in depth presentation on the FSD computer where they revealed quite a lot.

 

[mjmiron]

I think we are beginning to see Tesla trying to make money any way they can. I personally would not trust with the upgrade it would continue to receive future updates. Tesla is better at taking things away and changing their minds ALOT.

 

[R1Bill]

Tesla did release a lot of specs on the FSD computer during the Autonomy Investor Day. In fact, Tesla had a rather in depth presentation on the FSD computer where they revealed quite a lot.

Yes I watched it. All of it. It was way cool! Elon looked really pastly and nervous but his engineers were quite enthusiastic and convincing.

But, those specs are still not in black and white and associated by Tesla with the FSD upgrade. All that is associated with the upgrade by Tesla are those two lines previously quoted. It's like they don't quite know what they're going to do and definitely don't want to make any commitments.

 

[EVNow]

I think we are beginning to see Tesla trying to make money any way they can. I personally would not trust with the upgrade it would continue to receive future updates. Tesla is better at taking things away and changing their minds ALOT.

Now you are getting into the realm of conspiracy ...

 

[EVNow]

Mostly close range vision for manufacturing inspection systems. Very limited scope with no AI or NN. But other than the learning, automation is automation. It's really easy to see what the car is doing and that the current autopilot is barely more than automatic cruise control and looking at lane markers and traffic close to your vehicle. At least with Hardware 2.0. And as diplomat33 said, if the software is using 80% of the 2.0 computational power, they really can't do more. It definitely pushes me over the edge and makes me want to spring for the upgrade.

Automation without NN is definitely not like automation with NN. Apples & oranges.

 

[R1Bill]

Now you are getting into the realm of conspiracy ...

And that is one of my concerns. Without a written spec all we can do is "hope" that they will do something cool. But still the computer is overloaded and needs to be upgraded, this is probably the best deal we'll see and Elon has a great track record for making things happen.

 

[R1Bill]

Automation without NN is definitely not like automation with NN. Apples & oranges.

Agreed. But Autopilot at this point is not using any NN as far as this highly experienced automation engineer can tell. And if there is any NN, it's far down in the decision tree.

 

[diplomat33]

Agreed. But Autopilot at this point is not using any NN as far as this highly experienced automation engineer can tell. And if there is any NN, it's far down in the decision tree.

The current Autopilot in our cars does use NN for vision, but not for driving rules.