"Full-Time" AWD Winter Mode

[StealthP3D]

Hey Stealth it's not on you to defend the M3's honor. A lot of people have noticed issues with winter handling, and although I don't certainly don't know the exact fix, I bet there is one. I shelled out an extra $4K for AWD and I thought it would be better. To be clear it's not, on an absolute basis, bad, but I think it could (and hopefully will) be better.

I'm not "defending" the AWD M3's honor, I'm just sharing my enthusiasm for it's winter driving dynamics. I LIKE them. Rather than sticking to the facts, a couple of people here are attacking me because I don't live in AK or VT. Pretty weird. If anything, someone like me who is apparently not very experienced at driving in "real" winter weather should have extra trouble driving the rear biased AWD of the Model 3. I can't believe the little tail wiggle when you step on it actually bothers anyone.

Wanna race? LOL!

 

[StealthP3D]

All I'm saying is when I drive my Dual motor 3 with my snow tires, the rear end has an unsettling habit of letting go, seemingly randomly, in a way that no other car, including RWD sports cars have. I cannot believe that you would experience the same phenomena, and consider it a benefit. I do understand all the physics of rear biased driving dynamics, but that isn't what this feels like. In fact before I found this thread, I was wondering If I had a hardware problem with my car.

No, the rear end of my P3D definitely doesn't have a "habit of letting go, seemingly randomly", in fact, the only times I feel the rear break loose is when I give it way too much throttle for the level of available traction - it never does it randomly or unexpectedly, even on a sheet of ice.

Maybe you have a hardware problem with your car - it definitely shouldn't be doing that!

 

[Daniel in SD]

I've experimented with "Chill Mode" and it doesn't impact the engagement of the electronic nannies at all. The DSTC is activated based on slipping. All "Chill Mode" does is change the throttle mapping to more resemble an ICE vehicle. What does prevent the rear end slippage is to feather the throttle more. Chill Mode might assist with that but I prefer a consistent throttle response so I always leave it on "Standard" (when not experimenting with Chill).

With a consistent throttle response you will learn how to feather the throttle so the little engineer in the engine room doesn't think you want to play. It sounds like you just want to be able to push the throttle down half-way and have the nanny babysit your throttle. You might need to buy a Volvo to get that.

Make sure you don't get the Polestar rear bias AWD upgrade installed or you will not be happy with the nanny!

The issue is that when you apply the throttle the rear wheels spin and then a split second later the car decides that it needs to apply torque to the front wheels. This causes a lack of smoothness and an annoying side to side motion if you're going around a turn. The rear wheels spin bringing the tail out, the computer cuts power to the rear and applies power to the front, the front end steps out, the rear wheels spin again, repeat... It's not smooth at all.
The beauty of having dual motors is that they could have rear biased AWD for dry conditions and then switch to symmetrical AWD for slippery conditions.

 

[blef44]

I've experimented with "Chill Mode" and it doesn't impact the engagement of the electronic nannies at all. The DSTC is activated based on slipping. All "Chill Mode" does is change the throttle mapping to more resemble an ICE vehicle. What does prevent the rear end slippage is to feather the throttle more. Chill Mode might assist with that but I prefer a consistent throttle response so I always leave it on "Standard" (when not experimenting with Chill).

With a consistent throttle response you will learn how to feather the throttle so the little engineer in the engine room doesn't think you want to play. It sounds like you just want to be able to push the throttle down half-way and have the nanny babysit your throttle. You might need to buy a Volvo to get that.

Make sure you don't get the Polestar rear bias AWD upgrade installed or you will not be happy with the nanny!

I just want options. For example, even my prehistoric 4Runner has over 8 options for drive wheels / traction control / ABS / stability that I can pick which one works best to my driving style given the conditions. It has 2WD, 4WD, 4 modes of multi-terrain select that changes throttle TC and stability thresholds, separate TC mild off button, TC/stability full off button. And for most of those I can mix and match for significantly more configurations. Surely the 4Runner is not a model in technology development but yet here it is with all those options. Tesla should give a snow mode and preferably a few different versions of it so everyone can be happy with how they want the car the behave.

 

[Daniel in SD]

No, the rear end of my P3D definitely doesn't have a "habit of letting go, seemingly randomly", in fact, the only times I feel the rear break loose is when I give it way too much throttle for the level of available traction - it never does it randomly or unexpectedly, even on a sheet of ice.

Maybe you have a hardware problem with your car - it definitely shouldn't be doing that!

If you don't activate the stability and traction control I'm sure the the car drives great. I'm sure that's very possible to do on good winter tires. But you're much more likely to activate the stability control and traction control with a rear biased AWD on snow.

 

[StealthP3D]

The issue is that when you apply the throttle the rear wheels spin and then a split second later the car decides that it needs to apply torque to the front wheels. This causes a lack of smoothness and an annoying side to side motion if you're going around a turn. The rear wheels spin bringing the tail out, the computer cuts power to the rear and applies power to the front, the front end steps out, the rear wheels spin again, repeat... It's not smooth at all.
The beauty of having dual motors is that they could have rear biased AWD for dry conditions and then switch to symmetrical AWD for slippery conditions.

I haven't noticed that in the snow and ice, power application around corners is very consistent and smooth. And unlike my previous Mazda CX-5 Skyactiv, it doesn't have the bad habit of pushing straight ahead if a slippery corner is entered too fast or when accelerating too hard out of a slippery corner. In fact, if I had to put my finger on the one thing I like most about the winter driving dynamics is the way it maintains steerage control even when exceeding the available traction on multiple fronts (throttle, steering and or braking).

 

[StealthP3D]

If you don't activate the stability and traction control I'm sure the the car drives great. I'm sure that's very possible to do on good winter tires. But you're much more likely to activate the stability control and traction control with a rear biased AWD on snow.

Oh, no, it's definitely activating the traction control when climbing slippery hills, even when going pretty gentle on the throttle. But it doesn't let the tail hang out until I purposefully give it quite a bit more than I know it can handle. That's what I think might be giving some people problems. You can't even feel the initial and small traction corrections so people think it's not that slippery. So they keep giving it more and more throttle and get surprised when it cuts loose. It creeps up on them since it's so good at maintaining traction seamlessly until that point.

 

[PremiumPackage]

I can't believe the little tail wiggle when you step on it actually bothers anyone.

Wanna race? LOL!

It may well be due to my lack of experience driving rear biased vehicles in the snow, but I don't like that tail wiggle, especially on slick, crowded roads, and especially when I haven't really "stepped on it" - already have it in chill mode and I'm being delicate with the pedal. Sure I know how to steer out of it, and the car responds quickly, but it's not confidence inspiring. I may try going to low regen as I think some of it has to do with the differences in regen braking vs pedal braking, but who knows.

My AWD S60 (RIP) had a "Winter Mode" which, among other things, started the vehicle in 2nd gear from a stop to greatly limit tire spin on slick surfaces. I think something like that would be greatly helpful here.

 

[StealthP3D]

My AWD S60 (RIP) had a "Winter Mode" which, among other things, started the vehicle in 2nd gear from a stop to greatly limit tire spin on slick surfaces. I think something like that would be greatly helpful here.

Your Volvo S60? Yeah, the Volvo S80 T6 had the same thing, it just locked you out of 1st gear which was supossed to allow you to take off without slipping. But I never found it to be beneficial since I have naturally delicate throttle control (I come from a motorcycling background).

I feel the same way about Chill Mode - it's a gimmick and my advice is to leave it on Standard and just become proficient with the throttle. There is a lot of torque on tap (even with Chill Mode the torque is considerable) and it does no favors to anyone to have to relearn the throttle mapping for a different mode.

I really think it's all that easily accessible torque that is giving people problems. A combustion engine has a lot of rotating mass and it spins up more slowly (has to get all that mass moving). I think this causes people to be "lazy" with their throttle control, they just push it down and let all that rotating mass take it's time to get moving. I'm accustomed to gently rolling on the throttle of a four valve 996 Ducati motor when leaned over on a wet corner with the tire already near it's limit of adhesion. You don't want to know what the result is if you don't have perfect throttle control! No traction nannies on any of my bikes.

It wouldn't bother me one bit if Tesla offered a selectable, two stage traction control. I don't think it's necessary and I doubt I would use it but there is no downside from my perspective. From Tesla's perspective it's an easy over-the-air upgrade except for one thing. It's serious business and must be tested under a wide variety of conditions/tires/equipment before being released. That costs time and money. In the meantime, I'll reiterate, becoming more aware of your throttle control can pay big dividends. All that instant torque doesn't come free.

The biggest downside to all that instant torque in my P3D is it makes my two Ducati 996 "torque monsters" seem kind of not so torquey anymore! It's very sad to see my esteemed Ducati become weaklings. I know, they are just as strong as they have always been but now they feel weak. And it's a similar feeling since I've been driving my P3D on snow/ice so much the last couple of months, it's no more potent than a weak 150 hp ICE car when on an icy surface. It does have better dynamic stability and traction control though

 

[EVDRVN]

I'm not "defending" the AWD M3's honor, I'm just sharing my enthusiasm for it's winter driving dynamics. I LIKE them. Rather than sticking to the facts, a couple of people here are attacking me because I don't live in AK or VT. Pretty weird. If anything, someone like me who is apparently not very experienced at driving in "real" winter weather should have extra trouble driving the rear biased AWD of the Model 3. I can't believe the little tail wiggle when you step on it actually bothers anyone.

Wanna race? LOL!

If you saw some of the roads in Mammoth lakes in the last week and the narrow roads some people need to pass you would know why I prefer the handling of my S over the 3 as it is superior and I don't want movement when my tires are already too close to the edge of a drop. The point you are missing as that some here have gotten used to better traction and would like to have that same traction available on all Teslas even if it is via a button. I can't see a difference in power reduction in the Tesla models except that the 3 can't use as much as the S. I also would like to see better SC speeds because my 3 is terrible in even 50 degree temps and does not ramp like the S. These are two things that I don't like about the 3.

 

[EVDRVN]

So the non performance S/X come with different size motors now? When did that change?

My 2015 85D has two different size motors, the P has the larger motor in back and in the front. This is why LR mode is more efficient as power goes to the smaller front.

 

[StealthP3D]

If you saw some of the roads in Mammoth lakes in the last week and the narrow roads some people need to pass you would know why I prefer the handling of my S over the 3 as it is superior and I don't want movement when my tires are already too close to the edge of a drop.

You just admitted you don't have winter tires on either the Model S or the Model 3 and now you are complaining how scary it is when your tire is near the edge of a mountain drop-off?

My advice: Get some winter tires before you die!

But yeah, the mountain roads I drive in the winter have big drop-offs with no guardrails or any barrier whatsoever. Sometimes the snowbank will stop a car but on the steep drop-offs there isn't much holding the snowbank up and cars will punch right through. And that can partially explain why I like the AWD 3's winter driving dynamics so much - it maintains steerage better in hairy situations while in some of the same situations other modern cars will just plow straight ahead.

 

[coleAK]

I feel like you are trying to dismiss my direct observations of winter snow handling because I live in a "babana belt" (whatever that is) or I don't "live" in the snow? You make it sound like an eskimo who lives in an igloo would have AWD Model 3 winter driving dynamics dialed in!

This is what I woke up to yesterday morning:
View attachment 377003

I cleared the snow off and went skiing (videos I posted yesterday on this thread), came home, went to bed and woke up to this:
View attachment 377004


This is no "banana belt", we get everything here, even in the lowlands. I live under 1000' ASL. You can dimiss me based on where I live (which makes no sense at all) or you can bring actual facts to the table to support you beliefs. But your beliefs are not more valuable because you live in Alaska (and have a wife who drives a Model 3) or because you live in VT and have 7 months of winter. I'm only driving in winter conditions 5 or 6 months but it's plenty enough to know what works and what doesn't in the wide variety of winter conditions, steep, narrow, twisty roads, high speed freeways, etc.

A couple of recent dashcam videos from sea-level (simply because I don't pull out my camera all the time to document my daily life):

And the next video was taken the next day (so, yes, there was a solid layer of ice under all that pretty white snow):

And I want to be clear, I'm not posting these photos and videos to say the driving is so extra treacherous, I recognize that treacherous conditions do develop anywhere and it's the time you're not ready for it that it's going to bite you. And a friendly reminder that I'm not the one claiming the car is "scary" in snow and ice. Maybe if I moved to AK or VT I would come to reality and realize how poorly it works!

ColeAK, now you've got me curious, how many actual miles have you driven in the Model 3 this winter. I ask because I know it's primarily your wifes car.​

I drive it most weekends (unless there is a ski race where we are hauling 6+ pair is skis) to and from Girdwood ~60 miles each way on the Seward highway. I think many in here are coming at you because you are coming across as an ultra fan boy drinking the Tesla kool-aide by the 2 liter.

I’ve said on here the Tesla does well in the snow. But it isn’t the best snow car I’ve owned. It’s close and with some minor programming changes it could be better. But from you it’s the constant argument that it’s the absolute best, best, best, best,... Tesla picked the best winter tires, they are the best in the snow,... but many of us others are just trying to point out areas for improvement or trying to figure out if what we are experiencing is normal.

And I would take that race in a second. I’d even wager on a turnie course I’d beat you in my sons 2004 E320 4matic with 7 year old Hakka 5’s or for sure the 2010 legacy GT we bought for my mom. I’d bet on loose snow my big white elephant of an LX would beat a P3 around a closed circuit.

And I agree with @AlanSubie4Life my 2000 legacy GT had no electronic aids and was a beast in the snow: Planted to the ground, stable, and predictable.

 

[EVDRVN]

You just admitted you don't have winter tires on either the Model S or the Model 3 and now you are complaining how scary it is when your tire is near the edge of a mountain drop-off?

My advice: Get some winter tires before you die!

But yeah, the mountain roads I drive in the winter have big drop-offs with no guardrails or any barrier whatsoever. Sometimes the snowbank will stop a car but on the steep drop-offs there isn't much holding the snowbank up and cars will punch right through. And that can partially explain why I like the AWD 3's winter driving dynamics so much - it maintains steerage better in hairy situations while in some of the same situations other modern cars will just plow straight ahead.

No, I gave you a comparison with stock tries on two cars it does not mean I do not own or use winter tires. I can get the same result with winter tires on both cars. 40 plus years of winter driving in storms and I don't intend to die that way. Let me make this point clear, the 3 needs software improvements for traction. If this meeds to be in the form of a button then great. In wet conditions the traction and performance is not equal to my other Tesla, in fact at times it dramatically reduces power over the S, hesitates then goes full power were the S takes off immediately. Is the 3 more fun to drive? Yes in dry conditions. I have a feeling the AWD3 software is still not mature. My primary focus is not drifting in snow but I prefer the 3 dynamics on a dry road but I prefer the most measured control on snow and wet conditions. Is this your first AWD Tesla?

 

[coleAK]

The issue is that when you apply the throttle the rear wheels spin and then a split second later the car decides that it needs to apply torque to the front wheels. This causes a lack of smoothness and an annoying side to side motion if you're going around a turn. The rear wheels spin bringing the tail out, the computer cuts power to the rear and applies power to the front, the front end steps out, the rear wheels spin again, repeat... It's not smooth at all.
The beauty of having dual motors is that they could have rear biased AWD for dry conditions and then switch to symmetrical AWD for slippery conditions.

Exactly what I’ve been saying. Also at slow speeds on cold solid ice it just understeers and plows, where in the same scenario my other cars ABS break the outside front wheel to re-gain traction and correct the understeer. Also in me mentioning a simulated CDL that would only be used if you are stuck or almost stuck.

 

[StealthP3D]

I think many in here are coming at you because you are coming across as an ultra fan boy drinking the Tesla kool-aide by the 2 liter.

If a product works good, better than any previous car I've driven in the snow/ice (and I've driven a lot but admittedly, never an Audi Quattro) then I going to be a fan of that product. But my loyalty is not blind, it's the direct result of the driving dynamics. I like the way it drives and I'm not afraid to say so. If that makes me a "ultra fan boy" so be it.

But from you it’s the constant argument that it’s the absolute best, best, best, best,... Tesla picked the best winter tires, they are the best in the snow,...

I've never said Tesla picked the best winter tires. I actually have said more than once, there is no such thing as the "best" winter tire and if anyone says there is, run, don't walk, away. The Sottozero 2's are a good match for the Model 3 due to the cars excellent winter driving dynamics it doesn't necessarily need the extra snow/ice traction that can be had if the tire engineers are willing to compromise high speed safety and driving dynamics to achieve additional snow/ice traction. So I don't understand why you are making the claim that I said the Sottozero 2's are the best in the snow, they are not, I knew that before I had them on the car and have said as much here. What I have said is they are more than adequate in the snow and ice and perform superior on bare pavement to any other winter tire I've tried (and I've tried a lot). The claims you made that it's not a "real" winter tire are simply false and that's what I was countering when I said they work well, even climbing steep and icy hills. Yes, there are plenty of winter tires that can do that a little better but that don't work nearly as well in other winter situations that are common for people who don't live in AK (and even some who do).

And I would take that race in a second. I’d even wager on a turnie course I’d beat you in my sons 2004 E320 4matic with 7 year old Hakka 5’s or for sure the 2010 legacy GT we bought for my mom. I’d bet on loose snow my big white elephant of an LX would beat a P3 around a closed circuit.

The challenge of a winter race was in the context of the Model 3's superior winter electronic driving aids, not the Pirelli Sottozero's I currently have on my car. Put equal tires on a P3D and another car of your choice and I would love to race in the snow and ice on a curvy course, preferably one with some hills and a good mix of turns, from tight hairpins to broad sweepers. Not on a frozen lake where there are no consequences, that's for wussies. If you spin out, even once, you are done, you have to maintain control and stay on the road.

I drive it most weekends (unless there is a ski race where we are hauling 6+ pair is skis) to and from Girdwood ~60 miles each way on the Seward highway.

I was asking for the number of snow/ice miles you have under your AWD Model 3 belt. Not whether or not you drove it occasionally on the weekends.

 

[StealthP3D]

No, I gave you a comparison with stock tries on two cars it does not mean I do not own or use winter tires. I can get the same result with winter tires on both cars.

It doesn't mean you DO use winter tires. And the fact that you could get the same result with winter tires on both cars doesn't mean you have. Why don't you share the tires you are comparing (because this really is more of a tire comparison than a car comparison). This is a AWD winter mode discusion. To me that implies the driving is on snow or ice.

 

[coleAK]

If a product works good, better than any previous car I've driven in the snow/ice (and I've driven a lot but admittedly, never an Audi Quattro) then I going to be a fan of that product. But my loyalty is not blind, it's the direct result of the driving dynamics. I like the way it drives and I'm not afraid to say so. If that makes me a "ultra fan boy" so be it.




I've never said Tesla picked the best winter tires. I actually have said more than once, there is no such thing as the "best" winter tire and if anyone says there is, run, don't walk, away. The Sottozero 2's are a good match for the Model 3 due to the cars excellent winter driving dynamics it doesn't necessarily need the extra snow/ice traction that can be had if the tire engineers are willing to compromise high speed safety and driving dynamics to achieve additional snow/ice traction. So I don't understand why you are making the claim that I said the Sottozero 2's are the best in the snow, they are not, I knew that before I had them on the car and have said as much here. What I have said is they are more than adequate in the snow and ice and perform superior on bare pavement to any other winter tire I've tried (and I've tried a lot). The claims you made that it's not a "real" winter tire are simply false and that's what I was countering when I said they work well, even climbing steep and icy hills. Yes, there are plenty of winter tires that can do that a little better but that don't work nearly as well in other winter situations that are common for people who don't live in AK (and even some who do).



The challenge of a winter race was in the context of the Model 3's superior winter electronic driving aids, not the Pirelli Sottozero's I currently have on my car. Put equal tires on a P3D and another car of your choice and I would love to race a curvy course, preferably one with some hills and a good mix of turns, from tight hairpins to broad sweepers.



I was asking for the number of snow/ice miles you have under your AWD Model 3 belt. Not whether or not you drove it occasionally on the weekends.

Well it has ~2800 miles on it and we got it ~1 week before the snow started falling. She only drives ~30 miles a week to and from work and was deployed for 6 weeks in there. So I’m guessing I’ve driven it ~2k miles at least 90% of that not on asphalt but on snow and ice.

 

[StealthP3D]

Well it has ~2800 miles on it and we got it ~1 week before the snow started falling. She only drives ~30 miles a week to and from work. So I’m guessing I’ve driven it ~ 1500-2k miles at least 90% of that not on asphalt but on snow and ice.

And I'll wager that is a gross exaggeration. But it's the Internet, so what do I expect?

 

[coleAK]

And I'll wager that is a gross exaggeration. But it's the Internet, so what do I expect?

What part is an exaggeration?