StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
What kind of winter tires do you have on your Model 3 when comparing it to your Model S (and what kind/size on both)? Because that's likely the difference you are noticing, not something inherent to each car.
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"Full-Time" AWD Winter Mode
- Thread starter sir_log_alot
- Start date
What kind of winter tires do you have on your Model 3 when comparing it to your Model S (and what kind/size on both)? Because that's likely the difference you are noticing, not something inherent to each car.
Every time you post on in regards to winter roads here it’s certain you have no idea what you are talking about. “Slip start” is for if you are stuck or almost stuck. In those situations a CDL is desirable.
And per your winter driving videos. Crawling along on winter roads with set lines pretty much any AWD car with decent tires would have done the same.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
I don't mean to be rude but you weren't there. I've had AWD Subaru's, Volvo's Mazda's and Nissan's and yes, all of them (with winter tires) would have been fine. But no, they couldn't have kept up with the Model 3 if time was how you were going to distinguish the differences. And it's not because the P3D has so much raw power, you can't use that when it's that slippery. It's because the P3D manages the traction, both under acceleration and in turns, exceptionally well. And especially the combination of the two.
That's what I think is so funny about a few people here who feel a little rear squirm in the AWD Model 3 and say, "Bad car, a Volvo wouldn't have squirmed like that". Well, no it wouldn't and it couldn't have kept up either. With the same tires, the Model 3 will out climb/out corner any car I've ever driven in the snow/ice on a curvy mountain road. But I didn't post the videos to prove that it's a beast in the snow/ice, I posted them to show that a little tail squirm (when getting heavy on the accelerator) is not an issue on a narrow. curvy road. Because the Traction control manages the squirm very well (while letting a little bit happen). The DOT truck in the video is newer, certainly new enough to have Ford's most advanced traction/stability controls, and likely has gnarlier winter tires and it is visibly squirming more than the Model 3 with lowly Pirellis even though the Model 3 is going faster and the DOT truck is plenty heavy in the rear with all of its standard winter equipment and toolbox. Both vehicles are squirming a bit and it's simply not a problem. If squirm were a safety issue on a narrow mountain road, we both would have settled for less acceleration and no squirm. That would have been harder to accomplish in the Ford because it's traction controls are not as sensitive at light throttle as the Model 3 but, as it was, we were both safe and effective, a little squirm under acceleration didn't change that.
So I've lost a lot of respect for people who say the Pirelli Sottozero 2's are only good for 1-2" of Texas snow. And also for people who think a little rear squirm is somehow a defect or a danger. I just don't understand that kind of thinking if it increases the capabilities of the vehicle.
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No winter tires on either. It's the drive system it is not rear-biased. I have never broke the wheels loose on my S at full throttle on wet or slippery roads. I can do it over and over on my 3. There is little comparison on the AWD traction, same with snow. My 3 slips, reduces power, hesitates where the S is like it is on sandpaper in comparison. I'm not impressed with the traction of the 3 so far. There are places on dry ground with uneven pavement that the 3 slips, never once on my S. I thing some of these compromises are related to the PM motor balancing.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
I guess none of us are seeing why an algorithm that applies all the torque to the rear wheels until they slip is better than just applying equal torque to all wheels until they slip. And if such a system is so good then why doesn't Tesla use it on all their vehicles?
diamond.g
Active Member
Do the P S/X act rear biased? It seems like since the D's have the same motor front and rear with differing gearing they would act more planted in most situations compared to the P's. That or Tesla was super conscious about the tail of the S/X stepping out compared to "all the complaints about it being boring to drive" versus the 3. It is clear that they can make the drive more sedate, but have chosen not to. Is the RWD 3 as bad as the AWD 3 in the ice/snow?
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
The S is also a significantly heavier car which obviously has some traction implications in different situations.
diamond.g
Active Member
So the non performance S/X come with different size motors now? When did that change?
usofrob
Member
This has been my experience as well. The Model S is more stable/consistent, which makes me feel safer letting my wife drive it.
But, I choose to drive the 3 in the worst snow because it's more fun, but I feel confident it'll save itself.
I should add the S has Nokian All-Season WR-G4 tires, and the 3 has Pirelli Sottozero 3. The Pirelli tires are slightly gripper in the snow, based on my unofficial testing. The S can still let the back end out when applying power, but it takes more specific intent, and it won't do it as much. The 3 is easier to do and will let you go further before correctly.
I agree it'd be nice for the really scary roads to make the 3 work more like the S. One of the things I've been wondering is that in the AWD 3, they use two different types of motors. In the S, they're the same type. It may change their responsiveness or torque curve. I don't think I've ever had the back end come up in either car once I've gotten to like 20+ mph.
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StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
The engineers who designed/programmed the Model 3 traction and stability controls would be smirking at you if they were reading that right now. Because in an AWD Model 3, all torque is not applied to the rear wheels until they slip. That much is obvious to me simply from driving it on bare pavement, let alone slippery surfaces. While it is rear biased by design, the front motor/wheels kick-in from the beginning, even at very low throttle settings when the rear wheels are not slipping. This should be obvious to you and it's not clear to me why you believe otherwise.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
Wait a minute....You wrote this:
and this in response to my winter dashcam videos:
[FACEPALM]But you've never driven them with winter tires in winter conditions?[/FACEPALM]
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
Really? And you live in Michigan and drive on snow/ice? I've power drifted the Model 3 at 70 MPH and it's a thing of beauty. Like the hand of God is there to keep everything predictable and stable.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
usofrob
Member
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
Certainly, and there's nothing wrong with that. Safety is good. But it does make me wonder how you feel qualified to pontificate on the finer differences of the Model 3 and Model S driving dynamics in the snow and ice.
Another Vermonter here that has had multiple vehicles with varying AWD systems, Torsen, Haldex, and Honda, all with Snows from Hakka, Michelin, Bridgestone. The dual motor 3 is the least confidence inspiring of all as it stands today. Feeling the rear end slip is NOT a desirable trait. Yes I love the car, but it doesn't make me blind to an obvious deficiency in performance. The emperor is naked AF. Yes we need a snow mode at a minimum. Was thrilled to see the original post by @sir_log_alot.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
I guess the true test would be to put the same tires on multiple vehicles and have them rally up a snowy/icy mountain road. I already know which one would win.
For years people have lamented the way electronic nannies cut power excessively, finally Tesla has fixed the problem by giving the control back to the driver at higher throttle settings while simultaneously improving the TC's stability and grip at lower throttle settings and people complain that the rear end moves around too much on snow/ice at higher throttle settings.
I feel like I've gone into an altenate reality.
What Hummer vs Tesla Video are you referring to? The one I posted, the Tesla (Model X) did awesome. Of course there are situations where a tall Hummer with studs would beat it. But in that Video, the Tesla (Model X) did great, to my eyes. I thought perhaps there were other parts of the Video where Hummer hammered the X. Not in that Video. I didn't see any "deep snow tests" (I just scanned it again).
I am curious how Model 3 would do in that identical situation (which I have been in). And tend to agree with folks of the Model 3 having a "rear bias" (i.e. "No Micro" slipping for me before car would move). Perhaps it was my poor driving skills. But I didn't have Video to show what the wheels were doing.
If I don't see a Video, I may do my own and compare my P3D- with X-Ice and Jeep Summit with Nokian R2 in AWD and 4-LO.
My guess is the Jeep in AWD will do similar to M3. But my Jeep in 4-LO would do better, just a hunch from past history (and not a ton of history with Model 3 yet, but some). When the Jeep is in AWD you hear and feel wheels slipping before it gets going (3 open diffs), much like the Model 3 AWD feels. In 4-LO (center diff locked), it just immediately goes. It's happened many times in the Jeep. I would think the Model 3 would be effectively like 4-LO (guaranteed power to front and back), but I think because of the rear wheel bias (for efficiency) it behaves more like AWD (like open differential between front and rear). It behaves like AWD (open center) because it does not immediately apply power to front and back. The Model 3 needs a virtual "4-LO" mode IMHO (immediate power to front and back). AWD, might do that if you "launch" it out of the snow. But when you crawl, it feels like it doesn't. It's by no means bad at all. That Model X vs Hummer video looked like the X was effectively in "4-LO" (i.e. there was tension equally on all 4 wheels at very low power). Maybe Model 3 already does what X did in that video. But comments by others, my butt and lack of videos showing it currently tells me otherwise. And it could certainly be adjusted in software.
BTW some Jeeps GC's have a rear Center Diff lock as well. Only available on V8's (mine is a "economic" V6 lol). There is a surprising large difference in capability with the rear center lock (on serious off road adventures, e.g. 2 wheels stuck in the air
).
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