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Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase ?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by Eberhard, Jan 18, 2011.

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  1. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    #1 Eberhard, Jan 18, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
    with the upcoming need of high-power-charging, 3-phase power is already available in America and will be offered to all customers. the three phase, 4 wire, 480 wye/277 volts will be supported for the Model S. And this is 3-Phase


     
  2. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    I am a little baffled by this quote or comment. I don't think "all customers" (e.g.: USA residential) are going to be offered 3 phase power.
    In the USA it isn't typically brought into residential areas at all.

    Also, your posting doesn't mention that it is just a cut & paste of someone else's document.

    It seems it is page 42 from here:
    http://www.nationalgridus.com/non_html/shared_construction_greenbk.pdf
     
  3. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    That right. its exactly what all american customers is being offered. There is a big need to upgrade the old inefficient low-volt one-phase power-grid to the more efficient 3-phase high-volt smart grid, which is using much less expensive copper.
     
  4. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    I'm all for a move to 3-phase as the US grid get upgraded.

    However, be sure to use the
     
  5. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    I am still a bit confused by these statements. How are all American customers being offered 3-phase now? I think if I call my power company and ask for 3-phase to my house they would say it is not available there, or quote me some astronomical figure to run special power lines to my neighborhood. Is there some regulation or law in the works to require power companies to start bringing 3-phase into all locations? I was not aware that anything was happening in this regard. I thought we would continue to get split phase 240V (120V*2) for most residences for the foreseeable future.

    http://www.powerphase.us/distributionofthreephasepowerintheusa.htm

    http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-125089.html

    http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?2139-3-phase-and-Grid-tie...-what-will-happend/page3
     
  6. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    Your problems is not, that your grid cannot do it, they already do it. your problem is, that your power-companies want to make profit out of it by blackmailing those who are in need for 3-phase. There is more cost involved with your split-phase 110/220V as with 280/480V. But first is the must, second the option.
     
  7. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    I don't know the reasons, but I think it is true that the power companies in the USA tend to be slow to upgrade.
    Maybe it is bureaucratic, or financially motivated... I don't know.
    Here is one old article about "old grid" in the USA:
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-07-27-power-grid-usat_x.htm

    I think if you asked the average person "do you want to spend tax $ or increase your power bill to get 3-phase" the answer would probably be "no".
    At the moment there seems to be only a small minority that would want it.
    The current system is adequate for overnight charging of a typical EV now. What applications do home customers have that really needs 3-phase?
     
  8. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    Hi TEG, in Germany any electric oven is 3-phase connected. for me its a problem, we do not have higher current support (max 64A) at 230/400V but 3 Phase. But this may be important for public charging as well and makes the balancing easier.
     
  9. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    In USA, things like electric oven, hot tub heater, and electric clothes dryer are typically like single phase 240V@<50amps.
    The clothes dryer gets hot enough compared to gas, and electric oven warms up quickly enough so there are limited complaints.
    So, I don't see a strong pull to request 3-phase. Unless you are running industrial equipment, I think the only really desirable application would be quicker EV charging, but we can already fill up existing EV's overnight. Perhaps someday when 100kWh+ packs for 300+ mile range EVs are more common, and people want to use them for very long commutes then there will be a request for more more current to residential locations. But for now, I don't think there is a strong request.
     
  10. PaulM

    PaulM Member

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    I really don't understand why there is a "big need to upgrade..." and I've never heard that there is any interest to "upgrade", neither from the power company nor from the clients. I live in a recently developed neighborhood that doesn't have access to natural-gas. I have a 200A - 240V (48kW) service which is more than sufficient to meet all my electrical requirements including heating my 3000 ft2 (279 m2) house. In my province (Quebec Canada) it is quite common to heat using cheap hydro power. There is no efficiency to be gained by bringing three phase power into the homes and I can't see electric cars having any impact on this. Clipper creek sells split phase 240v EVSEs from 5.8kw to 19.2 kW. It is great that three phase is common in homes in Europe but I don't see it EVER being implemented in North-America. From what I've read on this forum, most Roadster owners realize that there is no need to charge at more than 8 KW overnight anyway. The only time you need higher power is for roadside quick charges.
     
  11. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    that maybe the main point. in germany you have to pay as a private customer 16cent Low(night) and 26cent High(day). electrical heating here makes only sense with a heatpump. And electric loss is less with higher voltage. if you pay a high price for electric power, to prevent losses makes sense. but even for you, the heavy cable for your hight current are more expensive as the 3phase-cabel for higher voltage (480V). to rectify your 1-phase from ac you need 4 expensive high current diodes, for 3-phase you need only 6 diodes for 3-times the power(at same voltage).
     
  12. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Higher voltage can use smaller wires, yes, but is also more dangerous.
    There may be a safety concern as part of the reason why 440/480V isn't typically brought to North American homes.
     
  13. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    any voltage higher then 60V is dangerous to human and DC even more then AC. But charging a car with even 1000V at a quick charger is less dangerous then charging with 110V at home, because those charging station communicate with the car first, testing the connection and if everything is fine, the power will be switched on. That means while you handle the cord and connect the plug to your car, there is no voltage at all.
     
  14. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Mis-wiring, ground fault, compromised insulation... higher voltage has an easier time getting through your clothes and skin and causing real damage.

    I agree, 60V starts to become dangerous, but I think the higher the voltage the more the danger happens.

    Although I wouldn't recommend it, and thankfully it has been many years, I have been shocked by 120V a couple times, and can still talk about it.

    Also, getting an AC shock is preferable over DC!
     
  15. PaulM

    PaulM Member

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    #15 PaulM, Jan 19, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
    The loss due to the somewhat higher current on 240V vs 480v from the transformer to my house (maybe 60 meters) and then to the appliance is virtually zero. Having three phase power would not make any noticeable difference. As for the higher costs of the wiring, ripping out what is already there in order to install three phase would be FAR MORE expensive. You can extol the benefits of three phase power as much as you like, it's just not gonna happen in North-America, PERIOD.

    Will Tesla implement three phase charging to better support the infrastructure in Germany (Europe)? Maybe, but since they are an American company, their primary market is on 240v so that will be their priority.

    I've read many posts here on how having to charge from one phase (of a three phase service) is not ideal and I fully understand, but it seems that you are beating this subject to death. Do you really think that by saying how better three phase is and that by saying "3-phase power is already available in America and will be offered to all customers" (which is completely false) will magically make it happen?

    The electrical power companies have invested a lot of money into the current infrastructure and even in new subdivisions they still don't offer 3 phase to residential customers, there's just no benefit. Also, don't forget that all our appliances are designed to run on 120v or 240v.

    Please note, my comments are for the residential market only. Most commercial properties are served by three phase power. If this could help push Tesla to support 3 phase charging I don't know. All I know is that there is only one North-American standard for charging (J1772) and it's 240v only. My guess is that for 3 phase and quick charging the charger will be off board.

    By the way, to add insult to injury, electricity in Quebec (98% hydro) is about 6 cents/kWh (all day).
     
  16. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    220V is much more dangerous than 110V. Sure if you grab a copper water pipe in one hand and 110V in the other you might stop your heart, but you kinda have to work at it. It's much easier with 220V.
     
  17. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    I use 50m cord running from my Apartment to my carport. When i charge with 16A my voltage drops from 230V under 210 causing the error-message extension-cord problem detected. This means my loss on the wire and cord is already more then 10%. Because i usually do overnight-charing i reduce the current down do 13A or 10A. The extension cord has 2,5 mm. 3-phase charging is simple more efficient and the cable is more easy to handle.
     
  18. PaulM

    PaulM Member

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    50m is a very long extension cord (164ft)! It is never recommended to use such long extension cords. I did a quick search and found the following: http://www.renovation-headquarters.com/electrical-extensioncords.htm
    If you scroll down you'll find a chart with a note that for longer than 100 feet you need to go up one size. In order to pull over 15 amps, you would need 8 AWG or 3.3mm wire. You should have a plug installed in the carport to avoid this issue.

    Now you will say that this proves your point since 60m of 3.3mm wire would be quite expensive. I don't know about the electrical code in Germany but I have a hard time believing that a 60m extension cord to run 480v would be permitted.

    In my case, I have a 4 AWG wire (5.2mm) going from my panel to my garage (only 3m) which will allow me to charge at 56 A (13.4kW) with virtually no voltage drop. This is way overkill as it is looking like the standard will be to install a 30A EVSE on a 40A circuit. This is the same as a dryer outlet and less than the 50A used by an electric stove. This is the norm in North-America. Any new house gets a minimum 100A panel although the electrical company (in Quebec anyway) pre-wires any new house with 200A service (no charge).
     
  19. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    This is only a temporal usage until i will get a 400V/32A 3-phase power-socket installed (6mm) . If you want to have more then 230V/16A you have to use 3-phase socket. there is no one-phase socket with more then 16A available in Germany.
     
  20. PaulM

    PaulM Member

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    Can you draw the full 32A from a single phase? If so that would be a "decent" charge rate. The 6mm you indicate, is that the wire size? If so that seems WAY too much.

    Have you read through the following thread?; http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/3157-Charging-the-Roadster-EU-Style?
    Actually this discussion should probably be in that thread. They have discussed this issues in great detail and have examined many possible solutions, unfortunately nothing simple.

    You know, I fully understand your issue and I sympathize. I certainly hope Tesla will have a solution for you since the way it is, they are forcing you to cause an imbalanced load on your grid. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be investing much effort in making any such upgrades to the Roadster. I am even amazed that they still haven't transitioned to the new J1772 standard (as opposed to their proprietary connector). These new EVSE's are starting to be installed all over and the EV with the greatest numbers on the road can't use them. Some owner have even developed their own adapters. Tesla is probably concentrating on the development of the Model S (which hopefully will support three phase charging).
     
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