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GM’s new Ultra Cruise: Hands-free driving on all paved roads in US/Canada

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Also, as a lay person, at a conceptual level, how can cameras alone be sufficient for L5 or even L4? What if the cameras are blocked even if for a brief moment while the car is self driving at highway speeds? There isn’t even a cleaning mechanism or washers. What if the cameras are blinded by fog, snow, slush etc? There are million what if scenarios that could render cameras alone inadequate. If I were a betting man, I would bet on Waymo or Cruise getting there first and Tesla having to revisit their sensor choices. Elon has disappointed for too long on this front.
Good arguments (though FSD washes the windshield when it thinks it needs is). However, they apply equally to any sensor. Radar can have trouble in different weather conditions, LIDAR is subject to interference from other so equipped cars etc etc. And, incidentally, your arguments also apply to humans. How could YOU drive if the windshield was obscured by mud? You can always ways find an edge-case where any system cannot work. So what?

Elon aside (I'm sure many Tesla employees roll their eyes after his tweets) Tesla has chosen to take the "hard" path .. to create an L2 system that uses vision alone. if they succeed (and that is a BIG "if") they will have a cost advantage over others, and a global advantage in not relying on HD maps everywhere. If they fail, it will be an interesting failure, though (I suspect) temporary, since we already know driving is technically possible using vision alone, as we all do it every day. (Others have argued that humans use reasoning that a car will never have, but of course that applies equally regardless of the sensor suite.)

Finally, all non-vision sensors are essentially augmentation of the vision system. Radar can tell you that "something roughly over there is moving at such and such a speed" but it can't tell you what it is, and LIDAR is similar. Under no circumstances can any of these self-driving systems work without the vision system. So your argument applies equally to all self-driving efforts, regardless of the auxiliary sensors deployed.
 
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Interesting paper on Stanford's vehicle for the Urban Challenge. They used 2D laser sensors to see lane lines via their infrared reflectivity and curbs via depth measurement. The 3D laser sensor (aka LIDAR) was used for obstacle and moving vehicle detection.


I like this part:
Our obstacle detection method worked exceptionally well. In the Urban Challenge, we know of no instance in which our robot Junior collided with an obstacle. In particular, Junior never ran over a curb. We also found that the number of false positives was remarkably small, and false positives did not measurably impact the vehicle performance. In this sense, static obstacle detection worked flawlessly.
 
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Not saying that they didn’t use lidar for localization but that they relied on it for object detection and maneuvering.
So - the argument is what was the "primary" purpose of Lidar ?

I don't see how what OP was saying was wrong and what you are saying is correct. Looks like both are necessary for driving. You could say there is no "one' primary reason for Lidar.
 
Interesting paper on Stanford's vehicle for the Urban Challenge. They used 2D laser sensors to see lane lines via their infrared reflectivity and curbs via depth measurement. The 3D laser sensor (aka LIDAR) was used for obstacle and moving vehicle detection.


I like this part:
One problem with lidar of course is that, as an active system, there is the potential for cross-interference between sensors on different cars. Some research has been done on this but I’m not aware of any attempts to mitigate this.
 
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Good arguments (though FSD washes the windshield when it thinks it needs is). However, they apply equally to any sensor. Radar can have trouble in different weather conditions, LIDAR is subject to interference from other so equipped cars etc etc. And, incidentally, your arguments also apply to humans. How could YOU drive if the windshield was obscured by mud? You can always ways find an edge-case where any system cannot work. So what?
The whole point about radar is that it DOESN'T have problems in different weather conditions. Looks like you are getting your wires crossed here.
Finally, all non-vision sensors are essentially augmentation of the vision system. Radar can tell you that "something roughly over there is moving at such and such a speed" but it can't tell you what it is
Not true, competitors use 4D imaging radars now which has enough resolution to classify different objects.

, and LIDAR is similar.
Lidar has always had enough resolution to classify objects. Not sure where you are getting your info from.
Lidar can do everything a camera can do other than see the color of traffic lights.
Yes this is Lidar output!
lidar.gif


Under no circumstances can any of these self-driving systems work without the vision system. So your argument applies equally to all self-driving efforts, regardless of the auxiliary sensors deployed.
The first google self driving car had only 360 lidar, 360 radar and a single front facing camera for reading traffic lights.

 
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I still think people are not putting enough emphasis on cost of radar/lidar, particularly higher end versions of both that do have better capabilities but could be cost-prohibitive. Musk is not anti-lidar. Dragon uses it to help dock with the ISS. He is against it for cars because his cost benefit analysis tells him not to use it.

I personally have no idea how much lidar costs, from low-to-high end. But loading up a car chock full of sensors is a very different business model than what Tesla is attempting. Vision-only would be a very elegant solution if it works.

Sensor-heavy cars are going to be lower volume (compared to the entire fleet of Teslas), and hopefully high demand to more than cover the cost of the hardware. Geofenced but highly autonomous could earn enough money to be a viable business. But we don't know for sure yet. Waymo would be the one to watch.
 
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I still think people are not putting enough emphasis on cost of radar/lidar, particularly higher end versions of both that do have better capabilities but could be cost-prohibitive. Musk is not anti-lidar. Dragon uses it to help dock with the ISS. He is against it for cars because his cost benefit analysis tells him not to use it.

I personally have no idea how much lidar costs, from low-to-high end. But loading up a car chock full of sensors is a very different business model than what Tesla is attempting. Vision-only would be a very elegant solution if it works.

Sensor-heavy cars are going to be lower volume (compared to the entire fleet of Teslas), and hopefully high demand to more than cover the cost of the hardware. Geofenced but highly autonomous could earn enough money to be a viable business. But we don't know for sure yet. Waymo would be the one to watch.

Prices must’ve come down substantially as many vehicles are getting lidars. Ultra Cruise will supposedly use it. The EU Audi A8 has it I believe?

And most new cars these days have radars.
 
The whole point about radar is that it DOESN'T have problems in different weather conditions. Looks like you are getting your wires crossed here.

Not true, competitors use 4D imaging radars now which has enough resolution to classify different objects.


Lidar has always had enough resolution to classify objects. Not sure where you are getting your info from.
Lidar can do everything a camera can do other than see the color of traffic lights.
Yes this is Lidar output!
lidar.gif



The first google self driving car had only 360 lidar, 360 radar and a single front facing camera for reading traffic lights.

I think you may want to talk to people who have radars failing when snow accumulates on the front of the car and tell them they are delusional.
 
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I think you may want to talk to people who have radars failing when snow accumulates on the front of the car and tell them they are delusional.
This problem is not unique to radar, sometimes my windshield gets covered in snow and it becomes impossible to drive! I'm sure some smart engineer could figure out a solution to both of these problems.
 
I think you may want to talk to people who have radars failing when snow accumulates on the front of the car and tell them they are delusional.
They are NOT delusional. The difference is that other companies actually designed self cleaning solutions for all their sensors and Tesla did not. It’s just plain simply.

Heck they didn’t have a heater on their radar till I think 2019 or 2020 models.

So you end up with this below... has nothing to do with the radar itself. Heated radar completely solves this issue so it’s a design flaw.

EOAvFDeXUAEaKlC
 
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They are NOT delusional. The difference is that other companies actually designed self cleaning solutions for all their sensors and Tesla did not. It’s just plain simply.

Heck they didn’t have a heater on their radar till I think 2019 or 2020 models.

So you end up with this below... has nothing to do with the radar itself. Heated radar completely solves this issue so it’s a design flaw.

EOAvFDeXUAEaKlC
Oh please, Tesla has a heater defrosting the front cameras, and the car can even wash the windshield if it decides the windshield is dirty. Don't tell us Tesla has not designed solutions for sensor cleaning (unlike Ford, for example). Thank you.
 
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This problem is not unique to radar, sometimes my windshield gets covered in snow and it becomes impossible to drive! I'm sure some smart engineer could figure out a solution to both of these problems.
Oh, darn it! Have you tried to attach heaters to your eyeballs? My whole point was that the idea that radar is somehow so much better for bad weather is greatly overvalued. I can see radar maybe useful in dense fog, but I doubt anyone would trust a radar alone navigating in extreme conditions.
 
You stated that radar has no problem seeing in bad weather whatsoever, and I pointed that this is not true, now you scrawl into discussion of radar cleaning and heaters. Thank you for accepting the fact that radar has a problem working in bad weather.

No it doesn’t you are spreading misinformation. A heated camera can’t see in a blizzard. A heated radar can see perfectly in a blizzard. If you can’t understand the difference you shouldn’t be in this discussion.

This is why airplanes use heated radar.
 
I’m looking at track record. GM promised Super Cruise, they delivered it works well in the limited settings it is allowed.

So I do believe that when GM officially launches ultra cruise which is similar to Tesla’s FSD, they would have tested the technology and it will work well.

...

As for Google or Apple, they can throw more $$$ at it than anyone else, and, that’s as important a metric as any to me as a non-techie. And if someone beats them to it, they can just buy them.
You are (in)correct on all counts. That is why GM has such excellent Battery Management Systems, and why the Bolt has never had a recall, nor had they ever introduced the V8.6.4 and so many more. That is why Boeing produced such superb reusable rockets, narrow body state of the art safety and outstanding mature technology on the 787. If spending more resources on the problem could be useful GM would indeed be leading, Boeing would ahem more orders than Airbus and SpaceX would have failed, not to mention Tesla.

Thoughtful criticism is both responsible and informative. Everyone who's been watching autonomous driving development is acutely aware that there is no practical solution today, and there is no assurance there may be any soon. Nobody really knows when it will be solved.

Things we do know today: 1. sensor incompatibility is a giant problem; 2.Update lags render radar ineffective. 3.. Lidar has exceedingly high sensitivity to precise and permanent labeling, making it both expensive and complex to use without both highly precise and highly accurate environmental data. Both rdar and lidar have some excellent applications but general over the road use is not one of them.

We do not know the limitations of vision based systems nor if the recent advances in utility and affordability will continue to evolve enough to cope with difficult atmospheric problems such as rain, snow, smoke and other pollution. We do not yet know how these systems can be made impervious to major lighting changes,

We do know that vision systems now can use electron microscopes, other visual systems that manage accuracy within a few microns, and rapid improvement in cost effectiveness of visual measurements that benefit from numerous variants of AI-based decision making. These developments demonstrate that eventhe surface of such approaches is far from defined.

I do not represent myself and authoritative in any way. I do claim to have a well defined sense of the obvious. The obvious, in my opinion, is that success will only come from computational advances and sensor improvements. Thus, I would bet on Andrej Karpathy and others like them who understand how to describe their process in terms that common people think they understand. They call these things like "Deep Learning" and "Computer Vision" that help get the funding needed to make faster and faster labeling of more and more obscure event descriptions so that they can train their tools to recognize undesired events faster and more reliability while reducing the risk of making a mistake and not recognizing something correctly. In that ancient statistical terminology, type one and type two errors.

The people who sell lidar and radar is preferred solutions haven't really understood the problem they are trying to solve.

Hence, they can easily make airport shuttle run on tracks and be perfectly Fien with no human driver. That approach can and does land a space vehicle quite perfectly on a space station. They can map the ocean floor. They cannot drive a car, unless it is in a tunnel.

Dojo to the rescue!!
 
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Oh, darn it! Have you tried to attach heaters to your eyeballs? My whole point was that the idea that radar is somehow so much better for bad weather is greatly overvalued. I can see radar maybe useful in dense fog, but I doubt anyone would trust a radar alone navigating in extreme conditions.
Which is why Tesla put heaters on their cameras which you were just boasting about? It’s quite clear to anyone using their common logic, if camera is clear it can’t still see in harsh weather. If radar is clear it can see through harsh weather like it’s not even there. To make radar/camera clear you put heaters on it, plain and simple.

Oh please, Tesla has a heater defrosting the front cameras, and the car can even wash the windshield if it decides the windshield is dirty. Don't tell us Tesla has not designed solutions for sensor cleaning (unlike Ford, for example). Thank you.

No they haven’t. I never said they didn’t have heaters. They have it on the front and forward facing cameras on the b-pillars.

But other robotaxi cars not only have heating on all sensors, but also water and or air cleaning solution.

Tesla is using the traditional wipers for forward windshield, it’s not an engineered cleaning solution specifically for the sensors.

Unlike others...


Here is Mobileye’s air and water cleaner for all cameras.


And ofcourse you compare Tesla’s claimed “level 5 full self driving car” to Fords lane keeping assist car rather than to their actual robotaxis cars which ofcourse you have no idea about.